NI support

[dcfcsteve]

Not the perception that people outside the city have and certainly not how Protestants that I know from Londonderry feel but my point was that surely a tricolour at your game alienates those from the Unionist community that may attend Derry games in the same way that a Union Flag would do to Nationalists at Northern Ireland games if you use the Derry City logic.

Let's compare statistics over the last 40 years and see whether Derry or Belfast has had the more inter-communal strife/violence shall we.....?

I'll wager there hasn't been a single year where Derry has trumped Belfast - even after allowing for difference in population.

[David]

Let's compare statistics over the last 40 years and see whether Derry or Belfast has had the more inter-communal strife/violence shall we.....?

I'll wager there hasn't been a single year where Derry has trumped Belfast - even after allowing for difference in population.

Where have I argued differently? All I am saying is that Londonderry, like most of this country, is a divided city so using your logic a tricolour at your game would make one side of the community not go to your games.

[David]

Look David - I really don't know if you're genuinely thick, or if you just pretend to be to serve your purposes.

Derry City is not the representative team of Northern Ireland. Nor is it even the representative team of the city of Derry, ffs, as there is another senior football club in the city.

Conversely, Northern Ireland is the reprersentative team of the province. Not just your little Loyalist/Unionist part of the province, but ALL of it.

As I said above, it's like comparing a private vehcile or small-company car driving round NI with a tricolour out the window, and a PSNI vheicle doing the same. There is clearly a massive dfifference, but you're either too simple or too bloody-minded to see it.

Now, where did I leave the headache pills. Denting the shape of my forehead onto the wall is really starting to bite....

And the Union Flag is the flag of all of this country and not just part of it. Some choose not to recognise it as such and that is their choice but the fact remains that it is the official flag of Northern Ireland and there is therefore nothing whatsoever wrong in it being displayed at Northern Ireland games. You throw accusations of being thick towards me when really this is quite simple but you cannot seem to grasp it, when our country is playing it is perfectly valid to display the flag of our country just like countries all over the world do. If someone says they will not go because of a flag I feel they are simply making excuses and if that is removed then they will find something else to complain about. For evidence of that just check out the Linfield True Blues thread where some feel the name of our mascot could offend some.

[dcfcsteve]

And the Union Flag is the flag of all of this country and not just part of it. Some choose not to recognise it as such and that is their choice but the fact remains that it is the official flag of Northern Ireland and there is therefore nothing whatsoever wrong in it being displayed at Northern Ireland games.

* Sound of head banging against wall begins again in the middle-distance....*

[David]

* Sound of head banging against wall begins again in the middle-distance....*

Oh I forgot, you are not too keen on facts.

[Gather round]

Heh. This reminds me of that old Spitting Image sketch where the Liberal and Social Democratic Parties were arguing about what to call themselves after merger.

'OK, David, we'll take the "Republic of" part of our our name and add it to the "Iron" part of your name'...

Speranza- I suppose it has occured to you that parroting 'you shouldn't exist' is likely to get 'yes but we do exist' as a response (and vice-versa, of course).

The current 'row' about the Ireland- Italy rugby at Ravenhill shows a compromise (although to be fair to IPJ, he says he doesn't want to make an exaggerated issue of it).

Let's have Ireland's call or similar at all Lansdowne and Windsor internationals this term. What d'ye think, boys?

[David]

Heh. This reminds me of that old Spitting Image sketch where the Liberal and Social Democratic Parties were arguing about what to call themselves after merger.

'OK, David, we'll take the "Republic of" part of our our name and add it to the "Iron" part of your name'...

Speranza- I suppose it has occured to you that parroting 'you shouldn't exist' is likely to get 'yes but we do exist' as a response (and vice-versa, of course).

The current 'row' about the Ireland- Italy rugby at Ravenhill shows a compromise (although to be fair to IPJ, he says he doesn't want to make an exaggerated issue of it).

Let's have Ireland's call or similar at all Lansdowne and Windsor internationals this term. What d'ye think, boys?

That will not be sufficient for them as what they want is to keep their identity and for us to remove ours.

[Speranza]

Speranza- I suppose it has occured to you that parroting 'you shouldn't exist' is likely to get 'yes but we do exist' as a response (and vice-versa, of course).

This debate is not about the right of the six counties to exist as a country. I was merely stating fact when I said that my nationalist views are the reason that I would never support NI.

David, I wouldn't be as narrow minded as yourself in my views to sectarianism but before you consult your unionist friends from Derry you should read up on a few facts. This Summer 3 young Derry men have ended up in intensive care after sectarian assualts, the 3 were all Nationalists. A leading UPRG politican shockingly said recently that the people of the oppressed Fountain didn't want peace with their Nationalist neighbours - that blows your unionists are oppressed in Derry theory out of the water.

[dcfcsteve]

Let's have Ireland's call or similar at all Lansdowne and Windsor internationals this term. What d'ye think, boys?

Despite the fact that Amhrann na bhFiann isn't a contentious anthem in the Republic, and that the Republic isn't a socially fractured society currently emerging from 40 years of near-civil warfare like the North, I'd still go with that suggestion. That's the way progressive people think, you see....

At least you don't feel the need to cling to GSTQ like a culturally needy child scared that without the opportunity to ostentiously declare your undying love of the monarchy that you, somehow, might wake up tomorrow just that little bit less British.

And as we're expanding it beyond the north into uncontentious issues like the South's anthem, in gambling parlance I'll see your Amhran na bhFiann and raise you a GSTQ at Wembley/Old Trafford/wherever. You'll find there's more opposition to that anthem amongst England fans than there is to Amhrann na bhFiann amongst Irish ones.

[David]

This debate is not about the right of the six counties to exist as a country. I was merely stating fact when I said that my nationalist views are the reason that I would never support NI.

David, I wouldn't be as narrow minded as yourself in my views to sectarianism but before you consult your unionist friends from Derry you should read up on a few facts. This Summer 3 young Derry men have ended up in intensive care after sectarian assualts, the 3 were all Nationalists. A leading UPRG politican shockingly said recently that the people of the oppressed Fountain didn't want peace with their Nationalist neighbours - that blows your unionists are oppressed in Derry theory out of the water.

My theory? Where have I expressed such a theory? All I said was that there are sectarian problems in Londonderry which you seem to be proving for me.

[dcfcsteve]

That will not be sufficient for them as what they want is to keep their identity and for us to remove ours.

Who exactly are "them" David ?

And how many times do I have to say that it's not about anyone losing anything. It's about neither side owning that which claims to represent us all. The Northern team could sing 'When the boat comes in' and you'd still be British, I'd still be Irish, and the world would keep on turning.

Or are you saying that it would stop you being British any longer if the Northern Irish team stopped singing GSTQ ? Would it make you any less British than you are now if they did ? If not - then how have u lost any of your identity ??

[David]

At least you don't feel the need to cling to GSTQ like a culturally needy child scared that without the opportunity to ostentiously declare your undying love of the monarchy that you, somehow, might wake up tomorrow just that little bit less British.

What gives you the right to insult anyone who wants their national anthem played when.........ummmm........national anthems are played before the game. And you call me thick? By the way I can completely accept (and have already done so in this thread) the abolishing of all national anthems before games but until such times, when national anthems are played that is what I want, the national anthem of Northern ireland which is GSTQ.

[David]

Who exactly are "them" David ?

And how many times do I have to say that it's not about anyone losing anything. It's about neither side owning that which claims to represent us all. The Northern team could sing 'When the boat comes in' and you'd still be British, I'd still be Irish, and the world would keep on turning.

Or are you saying that it would stop you being British any longer if the Northern Irish team stopped singing GSTQ ? Would it make you any less British than you are now if they did ? If not - then how have u lost any of your identity ??

Not at all, like I say above, all I want is the national anthem of Northern ireland played when they play national anthems before a Northern Ireland game. Hardly rocket science is it?

[dcfcsteve]

Not at all, like I say above, all I want is the national anthem of Northern ireland played when they play national anthems before a Northern Ireland game. Hardly rocket science is it?

Then you'll just have to aceppt that doing that and playing under the Union Flag and/or Stormont flag will alienate a large section of the province. Which could have implications on funding etc.

You can dismiss it all you like by claiming more Catholics wouldn't support the north even if changes were made. But that would be like saying 'My wife left me last year because I was an alcoholic. I only drink a wee bit these days, but she says she won't come back until I'm fully on the wagon. But I don't reckon she'll ever come back anyway, so why should I bother giving up the drink ?".

Until such a time as the NI team presents itself as the exclusive property of neither communtiy in the province, you'll never actually know how many extra Catholics it could attract. And until then, you have no right to bemoan the fact that few Catholics support the team.

[David]

Then you'll just have to aceppt that doing that and playing under the Union Flag and/or Stormont flag will alienate a large section of the province. Which could have implications on funding etc.

You can dismiss it all you like by claiming more Catholics wouldn't support the north even if changes were made. But that would be like saying 'My wife left me last year because I was an alcoholic. I only drink a wee bit these days, but she says she won't come back until I'm fully on the wagon. But I don't reckon she'll ever come back anyway, so why should I bother giving up the drink ?".

Until such a time as the NI team presents itself as the exclusive property of neither communtiy in the province, you'll never actually know how many extra Catholics it could attract. And until then, you have no right to bemoan the fact that few Catholics support the team.

Who is bemoaning the fact? Derry City supporters are the only ones mentioning it. If people can't come to a Northern Ireland game and accept that they will hear the national anthem of orthern Ireland and see a few official flags of Northern Ireland then to me someone like that is no big loss, they are merely looking excuses not to be there. Do you accept that a tricolour at a Derry City game will alienate a section (although seemingly a dwindling section) of Londonderry.

[MariborKev]

Who is bemoaning the fact? Derry City supporters are the only ones mentioning it. If people can't come to a Northern Ireland game and accept that they will hear the national anthem of orthern Ireland and see a few official flags of Northern Ireland then to me someone like that is no big loss, they are merely looking excuses not to be there. Do you accept that a tricolour at a Derry City game will alienate a section (although seemingly a dwindling section) of Londonderry.

A tricolour with "Dublin Derry City SC" on it will alienate Protestants

The saltaire with "Scottish Derry City SC" will alienate non Scots

The Che Guevara flag with a City scarf will alienate Capitalists

The Queens University Derry City Supporters Flag will alienate lads from the Poly

The London SC flag will alienate those non-Londoners amongst the City support.

Catch yerself on David.


I have been a regular attender at Windsor Park, both before and after "Football for All" started.

Has there been huge improvements? Yes
Is it much less intimidating than it was? Yes

However personally I still feel that I shouldn't feel guilty for saying that I would prefer a "new anthem". You talk of your identity being taking away, yet you feel unable to allow for the Catholics, such as myself, who feel as if our identity isn't represented.

You summed it up some pages back when you classed yourself as British and then Northern Irish. Hand over ther baton to some of the more progressive thinkers amongst the OWC support, and there are many, as they can debate this much more effectively than you.

[David]

A tricolour with "Dublin Derry City SC" on it will alienate Protestants

The saltaire with "Scottish Derry City SC" will alienate non Scots

The Che Guevara flag with a City scarf will alienate Capitalists

The Queens University Derry City Supporters Flag will alienate lads from the Poly

The London SC flag will alienate those non-Londoners amongst the City support.

Can't you see that you are making my point here, those that want to find offence will find it no matter what. As for me being British first and foremost, yes I have no problem in saying that and don't see that as anything to be ashamed of, as for you saying that I am not forward thinking, I think I would prefer to listen to people who actually know me on that one.

[MariborKev]

as for you saying that I am not forward thinking, I think I would prefer to listen to people who actually know me on that one.

David you have freely admitted that you haven't been at Windsor in several years.

I have attended numerous games since me da first took me to a friendly against Sweden in the mid 90s(Dahlin scored).

We were block bookers when they were ****e. I can remember watching them get beat at home by Armenia IIRC.

I have been at several games in recent campaigns, but it is getting harder to get tickets these days.

As an unashamed middle class Catholic I am proud to say I am Northern Irish first, then Irish second.

You can't see to grasp the fact that the status quo makes me slightly uncomfortable. I stand for God Save the Queen but it is one of the few moments in the whole thing where I don't feel part of it.

Listen to the opposition anthem at the next game(assuming it ain't England), and imagine that was Northern Ireland's. Would you feel any connection to it, does it represent you?

If you can't see that your are alienating entire chunks of the populous then fair enough. Changing the anthem or flag only takes away your identity if you let it, but the change can broaden that identity to includes so many more at the same time.

[David]

David you have freely admitted that you haven't been at Windsor in several years.

I have attended numerous games since me da first took me to a friendly against Sweden in the mid 90s(Dahlin scored).

We were block bookers when they were ****e. I can remember watching them get beat at home by Armenia IIRC.

I have been at several games in recent campaigns, but it is getting harder to get tickets these days.

As an unashamed middle class Catholic I am proud to say I am Northern Irish first, then Irish second.

You can't see to grasp the fact that the status quo makes me slightly uncomfortable. I stand for God Save the Queen but it is one of the few moments in the whole thing where I don't feel part of it.

Listen to the opposition anthem at the next game(assuming it ain't England), and imagine that was Northern Ireland's. Would you feel any connection to it, does it represent you?

If you can't see that your are alienating entire chunks of the populous then fair enough. Changing the anthem or flag only takes away your identity if you let it, but the change can broaden that identity to includes so many more at the same time.

Why do people keep misquoting me? Where have I said that I have not been at a game in several years? That Armenia game that you mentioned, I too was there. I was there all through the period that we could not score a goal. I only stopped going at the start of the last World Cup qualifying campaign because of the unavailability of tickets.

As for the British flag and anthem, what is offensive in either. Yes I can accept that you may not feel part of it and that is fair enough but I cannot see how it would offend you and it is our national anthem and our flag, it is part and parcel of Northern Ireland in the same way that Le Marseillaise (sp) and the French flag is part and parcel of France and the Soldiers Song and the tricolour are part and parcel of Ireland.

I don't want these things because for some obscure reason some people find them offensive (and I would love to know what people find offensive in either), I want them because they are our national anthem and our flag, it really is as simple as that. I can fully respect the opinion of Northern Ireland supporters who want an anthem unique to Northern Ireland. The reason I respect it is that it is not being political when they say it, it is there personal choice. Others are calling on it to be removed for political reasons. Whilst respecting the opinion of some Northern Ireland fans on this, I personally disagree with them, as would many other Northern Ireland fans. Not Brazil has stated that he is in favour of an anthem change and he is someone that I respect. I have worked alongside him with stuff at Linfield and I agree with him on many many things, this one I disagree with him on and I am certain he will respect my opinion. That is what it is all about, respecting others opinions, something that seems alien to Derry City fans. If I am at any event in the south and the Soldiers Song is played then I will have no problem whatsoever in standing for it and would feel in no way uncomfortable in doing so, it is the national anthem of the country that I am in and I would respect it in the same way that I would respect any other national anthem. Why can people not give the Northern Ireland national anthem the same courtesy when in this country?

People say Scotland and Wales have their own anthems for games despite being British and that is a very valid point. However in Scotland The Brave and Land of My Fathers they have traditional songs of their country already in place. In my opinion we do not have that and I would be against a fabrciated song written solely for this purpose to try to appease people that are rarely if ever going to go to games any way. I accept totally that it would also meet with the approval of some Northern Ireland fans but I still disagree with it. Just my opinion but holding that opinion does not make me a dinosaur, a bigot or lacking in forward thinking. I am British, that is me and I am proud to be British and when some people in this country stop attaching some sort of stigma to that and looking down on people who feel this way then maybe we can really make some progress in this beautiful country of ours.

[EalingGreen]

I have been a regular attender at Windsor Park, both before and after "Football for All" started.

Has there been huge improvements? Yes
Is it much less intimidating than it was? Yes

However personally I still feel that I shouldn't feel guilty for saying that I would prefer a "new anthem". You talk of your identity being taking away, yet you feel unable to allow for the Catholics, such as myself, who feel as if our identity isn't represented.

You summed it up some pages back when you classed yourself as British and then Northern Irish. Hand over ther baton to some of the more progressive thinkers amongst the OWC support, and there are many, as they can debate this much more effectively than you.

I have been reading this debate between DCFCSteve and David with increasing bewilderment. How people can invest so much energy in squabbling over pretty much irrelevant or unimportant details is beyond me - especially when it serves only to detract from the real issue, which is a football match.

As I see it, David is misguided in thinking that following the NI football team in some way validates or reinforces his Britishness. Yes, NI is part of the UK and therefore its anthem is GSTQ and official flag is the UJ. So what? In the end, GSTQ is merely two minutes before the match and as such, pretty much unimportant to the main proceedings. The UJ doesn't fly at NI internationals (and very few fans carry it now, as well). FIFA/UEFA require that National Flags be flown, so for NI, this is the NI flag. Frankly, it can't even be seen from 2/3 of the ground and the rest of us don't spend our time staring at it any more than we do the floodlight pylons. People like David should try, however, to understand how these may make Catholics/Nationalists uncomfortable. Then, remind themselves that when rugby fans from NI go to Lansdowne for a match, where they fly the Tricolour and play The Soldiers Song (neither of which represents our particular part of Ireland), the best attitude is "Stand Up, Shut Up, then Sit Down and Enjoy the Bloody Game". (At least, that is what I do - it does not make me any more "Oirish" or any less "British" - or, at least, it didn't the last time I looked)

As for Steve, I have to say, your reading of what actually goes on at NI matches - home and away - appears somewhat outdated and misinformed. It is no longer a Prod- or BritFest i.e. an opportunity for the Billy Boys to prove their "loyalty" and keep the Taigs in their place (in so far as it ever was). Really determined attempts both at Official Level (e.g. the IFA's "Football For All") and Unofficial Level (e.g. Sea of Green), plus the Block Booking process, have been hugely successful in eradicating the majority of previous bad behaviour.
Of course, there are still isolated individuals who have yet to catch up with the evolutionary process, but like the rest of the Dinosaurs, it is to be hoped that they will die out in time.
As such, they are about as typical of the mainstream NI support as those individuals at ROI matches who e.g. booed Holland's Rangers players, or waved Palestinian flags at the Israel team, or shout "Up the RA" during the Field of Athenry are of ROI mainstream fans i.e. not at all.

Therefore I feel Maribor has got it spot on - with a degree of tolerance and reason on all sides, there is no compelling reason why someone from a Nationalist background cannot support NI, just as there should be no remark passed should they prefer to support the ROI. It's all about choosing which is the most comfortable and inspiring atmosphere to enjoy a game of football and all the crack that goes with it.

Beyond that, all I would say to Steve is this:
You have indicated that you have still got some residual "feeling" for the NI team - even if certain circumstances deter you from taking it further. Can I suggest that you make the effort to attend a game? I'm sure I could arrange a spare ticket or two and I'd be happy for you to be my guest when next I travel back to Belfast from London. If you still don't like it, then fair enough, but I am very confident that you will be pleasantly surprised. You might even bump into one or two of your Derry City mates!

As for David, I think you need to chill: it's a football match we're talking about, no more than that. Different fans invest different passions into the game, nobody needs to prove or disprove anything - the only thing that really counts is that we can get behind 11 lads doing their best for our wee part of the world for 90 minutes.

For the record, even though I don't carry one, I personally am quite happy with the NI flag, but would prefer to see (the dirge-like) GSTQ replaced as an Anthem by something peculiarly Northern Irish - after all, it is NI I support in football, not the UK. (Re this latter point, I wouldn't be surprised if I was in a majority of the support - or near it, at least)

Beyond that, if there should be any other ex-NI fans out there, whose allegiance has transferred to the ROI, you might consider coming back into the fold, as well. After all, with the way our teams' respective fortunes seem to be shaping up on the field, if you leave it too late, you might just get a name for being "glory-hunters", that is, when we overtake you on your way down!

Bring On The Mighty Icelanders!