NI support

[Krstic]

Er, there's something you appear to be missing entirely. Governments, Devolution etc are political concepts, whereas we are (or should be) talking about football.

Sadly, this appears to me to be down to misinformation and long memories. (Perhaps you suffer from the latter, Stiof, with your reference to a "Protestant Parliament" etc? After all, the original statement was made in Stormont, I think, in the 1920's, in response to a "Catholic equivalent" in the Dail of the time. And Stormont was closed 34 years ago).

You start by lambasting Stiof for mixing Sport and politics.

Then you rattle into the old Unionist/Loyalist chestnut, that everything they do is 'Reactionary to the actions of Dublin,Republicans,Nationalists anything that they can think of '

I love it, you couldn't write that material.........................oh wait you did

[Paddy Ramone]

I am British and nothing anyone says or does will make me feel less so and what I will not tolerate is the demonising of people like myself who feel there is nothing wrong whatsoever in feeling that way.

What is now Northern Ireland only became British in 1801 along with rest of Ireland in the Act of Union. The first Protestant settlers in the late 1500's were Scottish (following Gaelic speaking Highland Scots in Glens of Antrim) and regarded themselves as Scottish not English. Some of the new arrivals from Galloway and Ayrshire even spoke Gaelic.

They were followed by English planters in 1600's. Some of the descendants of English settlers came to regard themselves as Irish like Wolfe Tone. Most of the United Irishmen of 1798 who fought against the British government were Presbyterians of Scottish descent. Identity can change over time.

[David]

What is now Northern Ireland only became British in 1801 along with rest of Ireland in the Act of Union. The first Protestant settlers in the late 1500's were Scottish (following Gaelic speaking Highland Scots in Glens of Antrim) and regarded themselves as Scottish not English. Some of the new arrivals from Galloway and Ayrshire even spoke Gaelic.

They were followed by English planters in 1600's. Some of the descendants of English settlers came to regard themselves as Irish like Wolfe Tone. Most of the United Irishmen of 1798 who fought against the British government were Presbyterians of Scottish descent. Identity can change over time.

Only if you want it to.

[Not Brazil]

Ahem nothing. Be careful with being carried away with the spin on that story. One fan was nominated and was awarded the title Best fan in the EU.

My good friend Jim was nominated "on behalf of the Amalgamation Of Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs"

Jonathon Hill from UEFA stated “The work Jim Rainey and the Northern Ireland Fans carry out to tackle sectarianism embodies the spirit of the award. Their Football For All campaign is a shining example to all Supporters around the world of how Fans can coordinate their efforts to create a more fun, passionate and inclusive atmosphere throughout football”.

[EalingGreen]

EG, I haven't read through all the replies and I am not sure if this has already been mentioned but it is the Union Flag that flies over Windsor at NI games. There is no such thing as a NI flag. The flag you refer to is the flag of the now defunct NI Parliament and was confirmed to have no status by the British Government in 1973.

I may be wrong (I don't actually spend my time at Windsor staring at the top of the stands, funnily enough), but as I recall, the flags that fly "officially" on top of the main stand at internationals are the NI flag*, the flag of the visiting team and the UEFA (or FIFA) flag.
The NI flag is the one recognised by UEFA as being representative of the international football team:
http://www.uefa.com/footballEurope/c...=63/index.html

David states in another post that a UJ flies from a pole by the tunnel. I'll take his word, since he would know better than I, though I can't recall seeing it (once again, I tend to look at the players as they emerge...)
Maybe this is a Linfield thing?

* - You are quite correct that what you and I both refer to as the NI flag no longer has any political or constitutional status. And its correct title is the Stormont Banner, if you want to be picky.

[EalingGreen]

You start by lambasting Stiof for mixing Sport and politics.

Then you rattle into the old Unionist/Loyalist chestnut, that everything they do is 'Reactionary to the actions of Dublin,Republicans,Nationalists anything that they can think of '

I love it, you couldn't write that material.........................oh wait you did

Actually, Krstic, in the midst of an interesting thread about the NI football support, Stiof suddenly intervenes with a post about the changing nature of NI politics.

My reply was an attempt to get the thread back onto footballing matters, by pointing out the irrelevance of his contribution. In passing, I also allowed myself to point out that even for a political thread, his post was somewhat lacking in context, as well as being overtaken by modern events. I accept that this was remiss of me and I thank you for pointing that out. You can mark that down as your "Good Deed for the Day"...

[EalingGreen]

Mr.Rainey fair enough. The latter part of the sentence implies though it's a 'collective' thing;Hmm......Not quite!

BRUSSELS INTERNATIONAL SUPPORTERS AWARD 2006

AWARDING CRITERIA AND RECOMMENDED VALUES

The prize awarded by the City of Brussels and its partners aims to honour supporters (ad-hoc groups, organised supporters associations or clubs) who, in their behaviour, attitude or initiatives have symbolised the values of friendliness, celebration and respect for supporters and players from opposing teams.
These positive gestures and behaviour may be spontaneous or pre-arranged. They may happen before, during or after a match. They may happen once or several times, at any level of competition (amateur or professional, at national league matches, national cup matches, European cup matches or international matches, at tournaments, etc.) and anywhere in Europe.
“The Brussels International Supporters Award” therefore honours any positive initiative that represents an example, symbol and embodiment of values including:
• respect for others, without distinction between nationalities, races, cultures, etc.,
• peaceful encouragement (in contrast to violence),
• respect for the mental and physical well-being of all those involved in a match,
• the celebratory and friendly aspect of the sport,
• meeting and dialogue at a match,
• encouragement for good play, whether by the supporter’s own team or the opposition,
• encouragement of fair-play by players and respect for the referee,
• sharing, solidarity and fellowship as part of the same passion...
• acceptance of defeat whilst aspiring to victory…
• fraternisation between supporters before, during and after the match
• the appearance of the pitch and surrounding areas.

The organisers of the « Brussels International Supporters Award » have in mind, the sight of these supporters of teams coming together, above and beyond their partisan allegiances,
They also have in mind, applause from the stands at the end of a match for all 22 players without any distinction between one camp and another or of the greetings made in the same celebratory spirit between supporters of the two teams,
They have in mind, clubs who automatically request applause from their supporters for each player in the visiting team at the start of a match,
They even have in mind, those displays – costumes, ticker tape, music - chosen by the fans to express their allegiance in an amusing, sincere, generous and sometimes moving manner,;
They have in mind, clubs that have created a space in their grounds for children to safely and amicably take part in the celebration of football.
The criteria outlined above represent the resolutely positive approach that underlies the “Brussels International Supporters Award”.

The fans of the NI football team were nominated for this award. As head of the Amalgamation of Northern Ireland Supporters' Clubs, and as someone whose personal example typified the activities which earned the award, Jim Rainey was asked to accept it. Though I guess they could have flown 14,000 supporters over to Brussels...

[BleusAvantTout]

You start by lambasting Stiof for mixing Sport and politics.

Then you rattle into the old Unionist/Loyalist chestnut, that everything they do is 'Reactionary to the actions of Dublin,Republicans,Nationalists anything that they can think of '

I love it, you couldn't write that material.........................oh wait you did

You must be from Derry!!!

[Not Brazil]

Mr.Rainey fair enough. The latter part of the sentence implies though it's a 'collective' thing;Hmm......Not quite!

Many, many Northern Ireland fans have been actively involved in bringing about the massive transformation. It has been a "collective thing".

[Krstic]

You must be from Derry!!!

londonDerry to you

[EalingGreen]

As I say;Don't begrudge JR & some* fans from the North......but these include the same confused individuals who earlier this summer were bickering @ Stormont during the cricket ODI as to whether they should support England, or er, Ireland,FFS! They then started singing they were 'Northern Ireland' etc.
WTF are some of them on........also there's a large no.who've 'imaginatively' incorporated the 'red-white & blue' colour scheme into your colours, such is their paranoia!
Doesn't seem so 'non-sectarian' then(or that they could ever 'seperate' politics from sport(Not that anyone ever should)).......It's only the Hypocrisy which really bothers me though!

*Will even admit to knowing(& drinking with) some of them!

The City of Brussels did NOT make the award to JR and some NI football fans.
Nor did they make it to some "confused individuals" at a cricket match.
And whatever their behaviour at said match, you should not extrapolate from this any inference about football fans' behaviour at Windsor Park.
Your "some of my best friends are Prod/Black/Muslim/Jewish etc" argument does not impress me either, since in my experience, it is often used to conceal, or deflect from, prejudice of one degree or another.
Above all, the whole tone of your contribution to this thread is one of "begrudgery", right down to your petty inability even to afford our football team its correct title: "Northern Ireland".

Quite simply, the whole atmosphere and behaviour of the NI support, both home and away, has improved radically in recent years. This has been recognised by a whole host of neutral organisations, bodies and individual observers.
Of course, the job is not complete; indeed it may never be. Nor should anyone reasonably expect "credit" merely for starting to put right what should never have been allowed to develop in the first place.
However, neither should outside observers such as yourself be allowed without challenge to deny, decry and denigrate the progress which has unquestionably been made, especially when you appear merely to be preserving your own one-sided and outdated prejudices.

[EalingGreen]

My observations are entirely based on talking to fans I've met from the North;Don't agree with them, but I wouldn't be so judgemental to call their views 'outdated', though I would admit,there is a high degree of individual 'prejudice',not exclusively all theirs,............I'm only reacting to the more extreme elements of this.

Nowhere have I sought to deny that some who call themselves NI supporters are inclined to behave badly (indeed do behave so); however, I should be surprised if they exclusively comprise those with whom you come into contact from "the North" (as you term it)

Which actually goes to prove my point, which is that by "only reacting to the more extreme elements", you begrudge all the good work which undoubtedly goes on day and day out (in so far as you acknowledge it at all).

Instead of hearing about it from these "fans" you meet from NI, why don't you take the trouble actually to attend a game? After all, it's not that far from Stormont to Windsor Park. Or are you frightened that that might make it more difficult for you to maintain your prejudices?

[Not Brazil]

"Appreciate some work has been done, which is good, but it's an illusion to claim that the fanbase's views are all now so 'cuddly & inclusive"

The views of the small minority who would have engaged in sectarian chanting have probably not changed.

What has changed is that their "politics", in the main, is left at the turnstiles, and that vile sectarian chanting has been eliminated inside the ground during Northern Ireland matches.

Like all teams, Northern Ireland have a few fans who would not qualify for "Saint" status. The ROI have them too - everyone does!

"Though I suppose the Maze has got some ltd.appeal!"

It's increasingly unlikely that the Maze project will happen.

Plans for a spanking new stadium in Belfast city are looking much more appealing to most Northern Ireland fans.

"most of them are more than a little odd!"

A trait found in many Northern Ireland fans.

[EalingGreen]

To be fair to the people I know, don't have general issues with their 'behaviour', just some of their views, as would they with I. Appreciate some work has been done, which is good, but it's an illusion to claim that the fanbase's views are all now so 'cuddly & inclusive'.

You'll be glad to know they have invited me, but there's a no.of reasons, including beliefs based on personal experience of the North why I'd be extremely unlikely to ever attend......though I suppose the Maze has got some ltd.appeal! Plus, most of them are more than a little odd! There's a limit to how much disfunctionality, a man can take..........

It's more than just some work, and nobody I know has ever claimed that "the fanbase's views are all now so 'cuddly & inclusive'" - but, hey, if you want to go on seeing the bottle as being 7/8ths empty, don't let me stop you...

[Btw, I'd be curious to know what "personal experience of the North sic" would prevent you from attending football matches in Belfast. After all, you managed to survive your trip to the cricket at Stormont unscathed and you indicate you might consider the Maze, both situated in impeccably Unionist areas of NI.
Maybe you are afraid you won't get through the checkpoints on the Lisburn Road where they measure the distance between your eyes and ask you to pronounce the letter between "G" and "I", before they'll let you proceed through to Windsor? And, of course, the compulsory community singing of Orange songs in the stadium might not appeal, either? Just a thought]

[Not Brazil]

Gents;Accept what NB says at face value.....deep down I (& many others)remain to be convinced, but then we're not there, nor are we likely to be.........so our loss!

I know of one regular poster here, a dedicated follower of the ROI, who could relate his experiences of the transformation to you (I'm sure he has already elsewhere on the Forum) - he sat beside me at the Azerbaijan game at Windsor last September.

Whether you are "convinced" or not is entirely irrelevent.

[EalingGreen]

Know exactly who you mean...... good to see the sceptics are being 'ignored'!

The difference between those who acknowledge the progress being made, and those who remain "sceptical", is that the former have actually been to matches at Windsor recently, whereas the latter (such as yourself) invariably have not.

And if the sceptics are of sufficiently closed mind, then they can probably never be persuaded, since the necessary "proof" can only ever result from actually experiencing it.

However, if you won't take my word for it, I reproduce below an article from last year, first published in "The Starry Plough" by a former Republican prisoner. Since this is the journal of the IRSP (the political wing of the INLA), the writer would not normally be inclined to look favourably upon the NI team and its supporters, to say the least!

[Note: The writer makes reference to the infamous match in Belfast in 1993 between NI and ROI. However, some of his observations here are incorrect (e.g. ROI fans not being "allowed" to attend the match, or Billy Bingham "inciting" the home fans). He might be forgiven for his misinformation, however, since that was another match which he wasn't actually at, seeing as he was unavoidably detained 'At Her Majesty's Pleasure'! The other poster on this site to whom RDB and NB refer was actually at that game and has described it as being not so bad as portrayed by the er, "sceptics"]

[EDIT: The article itself is too long for one post, so I'll just include it in a separate post, to follow]

[EalingGreen]

[Article on NI Fans from a member of the IRSP]

ARE "NORTHERN IRELAND" FOOTBALL SOPPORTERS SECTARIAN?
It was 1979 and I was 16 years old. I found myself walking towards the "Village area" of Belfast to "Windsor Park", the home of Linfield and "Northern Ireland" football. Not a safe place for Catholics at the best of times, but today I was with thousands of other "Catholics", we were on our way to watch Cliftonville play against Linfield. It was meant to be a home match for Cliftonville, but Linfield refused to play at Solitude, the home of Cliftonville, so all their matches against Linfield were played at "Windsor Park". The "Blues", as Linfield are known in "football circles" said their supporters were in danger by attending away matches at Solitude. This goes back to 1970 or 71, when the I.R.A. shot over the heads of the "Huns" (as they were known to us) as they left Solitude after a match. The I.R.A. did this in response to the damage that the "Huns" were causing in the area before and after matches, damage to homes and cars etc. Locals put pressure on the "Ra" to do something about this, hence the shots into the air.
Well that's how it was explained to me when I asked why all the away matches were at "Windsor Park" when they played Linfield. I don't know if this is true or not, but Glentoran and their supporters, who always played their away games at Solitude, were never shot at, never mind shots being fired over their heads. As a matter of fact, Glentoran believed that this was an excuse to give Linfield an advantage over all the other teams in the league.
But back to 1979, as we got into the Village area we were "tunneled" into "Windsor Park" by the R.U.C., in other words, they lined the street on either side as we walked by. This might seem like good "Policing" on the face of it, but in effect, it just made us easy targets for the stones and bottles that were thrown over the roofs into the street at us. This did not really bother me, as I knew to expect it. What really frightened me was the venom that was spat at us from elderly women, who took to their upstairs windows to make sure we saw them, and called us all the names under the Sun. They brought photos of their Queen, union jacks and any other thing they thought we might find offensive. The hatred I saw in their faces as they shouted down at us is something I will never forget. Their cheers when one of us was hit by something, or more often than not, when the R.U.C. battered one of us, was unbelievable. After the match we had to run this gauntlet of sectarian hatred again as we made our way home.
I used to wonder what it was that these elderly women hated about us, but I was never to find the answer. I also wondered if women like my Mother could be capable of such hatred. Though I doubted it, it did make me wonder.
So when I was asked a few weeks ago would I go to watch Northern Ireland play Germany, I had my reservations, to say the least. I was on a course and the subject came up about the support for Northern Ireland being sectarian. Of-course it is, we all know that, don't we? One of the people on the course was a supporter, and the next day he informed us the I.F.A. was willing to give us 20 tickets for the match. So there it is, I found myself having to back up my opinions or be proved wrong, and the only way to do that was to go to the match!
So with a little bit more than fear, I made my way to the top of Tates Avenue to where we had agreed to meet. Although our group was very mixed I thought I stood out, a prime-evil fear no doubt. But being an ex-P.O.W. only made things worse, what if some one recognised me from the prison? What was I doing among all these "Huns" and I don't mean the German supporters? Christ I don't even like this team, why should I put myself through all this fear just because xxxxx xxxxx said I should do this course? Why didn't he do it himself? All sorts of thoughts were running through my head. To top it all the only green I had to wear was either a Celtic or Ireland top, and as that was not an option, I brought an "Ulster" flag that I had got in circumstances that I will not go into. As we walked towards the ground things seemed to be pleasant enough, German supporters mixed with us, some people finished of their beer before they got to the ground as no alcohol is allowed in anymore. This walk was very different from the last time I did it, no elderly women shouting abuse, no stones coming over the roofs, no "tunneling" by the R.U.C. but still I felt I was walking into the lion's den. One of the first things that surprised me after I went through the turn styles was two blokes wearing Ireland tops, now this was unreal, was a joke being played on me? No as it turned out. Into the stands I looked around and noticed how much the place had changed since 1979, it did look a lot better. As we waited for the match to start the lad that had got us the tickets said he was surprised I actually came, no where near as surprised as I was!!! So I settled in my seat and as the match started, I listened to the crowd and the songs they were singing, I had been told that there would no "Billy boys" songs; even the "Sash" was not sung anymore. This I found hard to believe as I thought it was the only two songs they knew!! I was also told that there would be no union jacks, and this turned out to be true, there was not one in the crowd. The singing was a surprise also, not one sectarian song was sung during the whole match. They didn't have too many songs; it seems that "Northern Ireland" is a bit of a mouth full to fit in!!
As the match progressed I started to feel a bit more at ease, we seemed to be in the "Family stand" as there was a lot of children running about. The crowd in the opposite stand started to do the "Dam Busters Tune" to try and annoy the German supporters. It didn't work; maybe the Germans know that it is probably the most overrated operation of world war two. As the reason that I went to the match was to observe the crowd, I didn't show too much interest in the actual match. As you probably know the Germans, down to 10 men for most of the match, won 4 to 1. I give out a bit of stick about this, as it showed how bad the "Northern Ireland" really is. At the end of the match the result of the Ireland-Israel was given out, this seem to get the loudest cheer of the whole night!!
At home that night I thought about the crowd, had things really changed that much? As a teenager I saw real hatred, "Windsor Park" has seen some ugly scenes over the years. Some of them made it into the local media probably the most notable were the game against Ireland. That night the sectarian hatred was so bad that Irish supporters were not allowed into the ground. I was in prison that night and was listening to the match on the radio in my cell. Even in the prison I could hear the crowd over the broadcasters talk. Things got that bad Jack Charlton, the Irish manager at that time, wouldn't sake the hand of Billy Bingham, the "Northern Ireland" manager, at the end of the match because he was inciting the crowd in its sectarian hatred. There was even a play made about this match because of the sectarianism that night.
This and other notable sectarian events were the hallmark of "Windsor Park". So for me to see such a change was challenging to say the least. My first thought was, well this is against the Germans, what if it was against Ireland? Would the "Dam Busters" and chants of "Healy, Healy give us a goal" have been enough for the crowd? Then again does that matter? The fact that the I.F.A. and their supporters are doing their best to get rid of sectarianism at these matches is a step forward.
We as Republican Socialists, should always look at progressive steps in a manner that befits our beliefs. I am not asking us to run out and support "Northern Ireland" but to ignore any move, no matter how small, that comes from the Unionists people would be a mistake on our behalf. We are about uniting people, not dividing them. We do not tell people what they should or should not believe in. We will have to except that the people I saw in "Windsor Park" that night were passionate about their team, it was part of their identity, and if they are trying to get rid of sectarianism at these matches, why should we still be ignorant of their efforts?
I didn't believe that these changes were possible, again it was only one match, but I did see changes, massive changes when you think about it. I still feel nothing for or identify with anything that is "Northern Irish" but these people are sharing this island with us, and if we can not work with them or try to understand and come to identify with each other, then as a working class party we will fail to ever achieve any sort of working class unity. So to me the challenge is not for the "Northern Ireland" supporters and unionism to come to our way of thinking, but for us to try to understand and work with progressive unionists to find a way towards working class unity. After all it is said that horse racing is the sport of kings and that soccer is the sport of the working class, why not try from here to find some working class unity?
Coming out of the ground I did feel that the I.F.A. were at least trying to end the overt bigotry and their supporters were playing their part in this also. But I felt a bit of sadness as I left, not only had Ireland dropped a few points against Israel, but as an Irish supporter I could no longer call this team "Northern Ireland nil"!!
Xxxxxx xxxxxx, Ard Comhairle IRSP

[Chewy]

Can't you see that you are making my point here, those that want to find offence will find it no matter what. As for me being British first and foremost, yes I have no problem in saying that and don't see that as anything to be ashamed of, as for you saying that I am not forward thinking, I think I would prefer to listen to people who actually know me on that one.

how can u be British and Irish are u on some sort of holiday ye boys are gas it makes my day to read this stuff

[Not Brazil]

how can u be British and Irish are u on some sort of holiday ye boys are gas it makes my day to read this stuff

Err...

English & British
Welsh & British
Scottish & British
Irish & British.

Nothing very funny about that chief.

What's "Irish American" all about? Do you understand that?

[EalingGreen]

how can u be British and Irish are u on some sort of holiday ye boys are gas it makes my day to read this stuff

To take this back to a footballing context, some of the players in the NI team and support have a Passport which denotes that they are citizens of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which I guess covers all bases.
Of course, some players and fans have Passports issued by the Irish Republic (or "Ireland", if you prefer).
Either way, I couldn't give a stuff which it is - I just want to follow a team made up of people who are qualified to play for NI and who want to play for NI. I find it makes my day for me.

(P.S. When you go back to school after the holidays, you might want to pay a bit more attention in English class)