NI support

**David** · 23/08/2006, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I
As I see it, David is misguided in thinking that following the NI football team in some way validates or reinforces his Britishness. Yes, NI is part of the UK and therefore its anthem is GSTQ and official flag is the UJ. So what? In the end, GSTQ is merely two minutes before the match and as such, pretty much unimportant to the main proceedings. The UJ doesn't fly at NI internationals (and very few fans carry it now, as well). FIFA/UEFA require that National Flags be flown, so for NI, this is the NI flag. Frankly, it can't even be seen from 2/3 of the ground and the rest of us don't spend our time staring at it any more than we do the floodlight pylons. People like David should try, however, to understand how these may make Catholics/Nationalists uncomfortable. Then, remind themselves that when rugby fans from NI go to Lansdowne for a match, where they fly the Tricolour and play The Soldiers Song (neither of which represents our particular part of Ireland), the best attitude is "Stand Up, Shut Up, then Sit Down and Enjoy the Bloody Game". (At least, that is what I do - it does not make me any more "Oirish" or any less "British" - or, at least, it didn't the last time I looked)

I don't feel it validates or reinforces my Britishness. Why can people not understand the simple thing that I am saying? It is my belief that when national anthems are played before a Northern Ireland game that the national anthem of Northern Ireland should be played. Whilst I have never done so myself I also believe that there is nothing wrong whatsoever with someone having the Union Flag at a Northern Ireland game as it is the official flag of Northern Ireland. I do not need to "validate and reinforce my Britishness" because it is what I am. I am British and nothing anyone says or does will make me feel less so and what I will not tolerate is the demonising of people like myself who feel there is nothing wrong whatsoever in feeling that way.

**MariborKev** · 23/08/2006, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by David

I am British and nothing anyone says or does will make me feel less so and what I will not tolerate is the demonising of people like myself who feel there is nothing wrong whatsoever in feeling that way.

David,

If nothing anyone does will make you feel less British, what is your porblem with my aspirations for a new flag and anthem that better reflects the true Northern Ireland ie, a state with numerous traditions......

**EalingGreen** · 23/08/2006, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by David

I am British and nothing anyone says or does will make me feel less so and what I will not tolerate is the demonising of people like myself who feel there is nothing wrong whatsoever in feeling that way.

In the sporting context, when e.g. I watch the Olympics, I am British. When I go to Lansdowne for a rugby match, I am Irish. And when I go to Windsor for a football match, I am Northern Irish.

I would never "demonise" you for feeling "British" at Windsor, but I just don't "get" it myself, especially when my team is playing England, Scotland or Wales.

Similarly, I would never "demonise" those Northern Nationalists who cannot bring themselves to support NI. However, I don't "get" their emotional detachment from the team either, since in practice, there is no longer any threat, intimidation or lack of welcome for them and I don't see that their political viewpoint need override their sporting affiliations. (Let's face it, half the NI team might be Nationalist or Republican when they go to cast their vote at an Election, but it doesn't stop them opting to represent NI at football, nor should it, imo)

For me, sport and politics should be kept separate. I follow the NI football team because I'm a football fan who comes from Northern Ireland - no more or less than that.

**Gather round** · 23/08/2006, 5:25 PM

Welcome aboard Ealing Green. BTW, you'd have enjoyed the craic/crack in the Famous Three Kings pub, London, last week. Assembled Ulster exiles, plus sundry Poles and Germans watching their teams on the other screens, joined us for a rousing version of that old Boney M classic, "La la Lafferty, Fermanagh's favourite goal machine". As the big man from Kesh easily beat a very ordinary Hyppia to put our boys 2-0 ahead in Helsinki

**EalingGreen** · 23/08/2006, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by Gather round

Welcome aboard Ealing Green. BTW, you'd have enjoyed the craic/crack in the Famous Three Kings pub, London, last week. Assembled Ulster exiles, plus sundry Poles and Germans watching their teams on the other screens, joined us for a rousing version of that old Boney M classic, "La la Lafferty, Fermanagh's favourite goal machine". As the big man from Kesh easily beat a very ordinary Hyppia to put our boys 2-0 ahead in Helsinki

Thanks, GR. As it happens, I couldn't make The Three Kings* last week, due only to personal circumstances. However, I'm sure I'll see you there sometime soon - if I haven't already!

Btw, what was the next line to the song? "There was a cat that really was gone" doesn't quite cut it...

* - I used to drink in 'The Three Kings' before it was "Famous"

**Not Brazil** · 23/08/2006, 8:02 PM

Ahem,

NORTHERN IRELAND FANS ARE OFFICIALLY
THE BEST FANS IN EUROPE

NORTHERN IRELAND international football Fans have been officially crowned the best football Supporters in Europe after winning the prestigious, EU and UEFA endorsed, Brussels International Supporters Award 2006!

IFA Head of Community Relations, Michael Boyd, who nominated the Northern Ireland football Fans was delighted with the result:

�I nominated one fan, called Jim Rainey, on behalf of the Amalgamation of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs (AONISC). Jim represents all that is great about the AONISC and has been at the heart of their extraordinary charity efforts, promotion of good relations both at home and abroad; and he has been instrumental in the Northern Ireland Fan�s Football For All campaign that has brought so many families back to support Northern Ireland in an atmosphere free from sectarianism�.

Jonathon Hill from UEFA stated �The work Jim Rainey and the Northern Ireland Fans carry out to tackle sectarianism embodies the spirit of the award. Their Football For All campaign is a shining example to all Supporters around the world of how Fans can coordinate their efforts to create a more fun, passionate and inclusive atmosphere throughout football�.

A delighted Jim Rainey added, "It's a great honour for me to know that at last the Northern Ireland fans have been recognised by UEFA for the sterling work they do to make supporting Northern Ireland such an experience. We have used the spirit of football to extend the hand of friendship around the globe, whilst never missing the opportunity to help those less fortunate than ourselves.

All of this would not have been possible without the support of the Amalgamation of Official NISCs, the Ourweecountry website/fans' forum and the IFA's Football for All initiative. Together we have improved the atmosphere at Northern Ireland matches, at the same time helping charities at home and abroad to the tune of �82,000 over the last five years."

**David** · 23/08/2006, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Maribor

David,

If nothing anyone does will make you feel less British, what is your porblem with my aspirations for a new flag and anthem that better reflects the true Northern Ireland ie, a state with numerous traditions......

I really do give up. All over the world people take pride in their national anthem and their flag being displayed at international games yet you want to deny that right to Northern Ireland supporters.

**MariborKev** · 23/08/2006, 11:19 PM

Not Brazil,

JimR will be part of the Linfield contingent in the Brandywell tomorrow night. We taught him all he knows...........

**MariborKev** · 23/08/2006, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by David

I really do give up. All over the world people take pride in their national anthem and their flag being displayed at international games yet you want to deny that right to Northern Ireland supporters.

David,

You really can't seem to grasp the fact that even as a Northern Ireland fan that flag and anthem doesn't represent me.

Apologies for having the audacity to wish for one that will.....

**David** · 24/08/2006, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by Maribor

David,

You really can't seem to grasp the fact that even as a Northern Ireland fan that flag and anthem doesn't represent me.

Apologies for having the audacity to wish for one that will.....

Surely you can't pick or choose a national anthem?

**Krstic** · 24/08/2006, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by David

Surely you can't pick or choose a national anthem?

Why not?
How do you think countries get them, a lottery?

**David** · 24/08/2006, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by Krstic

Why not?
How do you think countries get them, a lottery?

Wise up, it is obvious that I was referring to individuals. We have no control over what is the national anthem of our country. At the minute that is GSTQ so that is what should be played when our country play international games.

**Stiof** · 24/08/2006, 8:28 AM

David, our wee country is going through a lot of change at the minute...a devolved government (hopefully) is in the offing, one which is representative of the whole population - instead of of a protestant government for a protestant people. So why not a new national anthem which is representative of the whole population as well....?

**David** · 24/08/2006, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by Stiof

David, our wee country is going through a lot of change at the minute...a devolved government (hopefully) is in the offing, one which is representative of the whole population - instead of of a protestant government for a protestant people. So why not a new national anthem which is representative of the whole population as well....?

If a devolved government chooses to change the official national anthem of Northern Ireland then so be it and I would have no problem at all with that being played at games. Until such times the existing official national anthem should be played.

**Not Brazil** · 24/08/2006, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Maribor

Not Brazil,

JimR will be part of the Linfield contingent in the Brandywell tomorrow night. We taught him all he knows...........

I know.

He's a close friend of mine, and my room mate on away trips.

**Not Brazil** · 24/08/2006, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by RDBloomfield

To be fair to their critics, the Six Counties which represents 2/3rds of the province have a b*stardised Ulster flag & a tribute to some minor part of the German aristocracy as their 'anthem'........Original,Not.
Plus at most they only represent 50% at best of their population, allowing for the 'super-Prod' Eng.fans & Nats. who support Ireland.

Still have met a fair few of their fans who are regular fans......most of them are OK on an individual basis(They will even admit there could well be a UI team one day!

), though some are only tolerable only in small doses!

Quite amazing then that you wish to "unite" with these people.

**EalingGreen** · 24/08/2006, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by Stiof

David, our wee country is going through a lot of change at the minute...a devolved government (hopefully) is in the offing, one which is representative of the whole population - instead of of a protestant government for a protestant people. So why not a new national anthem which is representative of the whole population as well....?

Er, there's something you appear to be missing entirely. Governments, Devolution etc are political concepts, whereas we are (or should be) talking about football.
As I see it, if you're from NI and wish to play for, or support, the NI football team, then great. If, however, you don't, then fair enough - nobody should be forced to do something like this against their will.
Of course, we should look at the conditions surrounding the whole experience of supporting NI, in case certain groups who might otherwise be supporters are being unfairly or improperly excluded.

From my own long experience, these appear to fall into two categories.
The first can be termed the "atmosphere". Nobody connected with the team denies that for a long period, there was an unwelcoming, occasionally intimidating, atmosphere for Catholics/Nationalists at Windsor.
Equally, however, no one should deny that this has been successfully addressed, so that the matchday atmosphere now poses no inhibition to any open-minded football fan who might wish to come along.
Of course, there are some (many?) people within the Nationalist community who do not accept this. Sadly, this appears to me to be down to misinformation and long memories. (Perhaps you suffer from the latter, Stiof, with your reference to a "Protestant Parliament" etc? After all, the original statement was made in Stormont, I think, in the 1920's, in response to a "Catholic equivalent" in the Dail of the time. And Stormont was closed 34 years ago).
However, if people can/will not accept from me that things have changed, I can dig out supporting accounts from people who might not ordinarily be expected to hold much love for Windsor Park!

The second category is what I would term the "trappings" of the matchday experience. Invariably, these boil down to anthems and flags.
Regarding the anthem, whether people like it not, GSTQ is the recognised anthem of NI, it being the UK anthem and NI being part of the UK.
In an earlier post, Maribor (whose posts I greatly respect), stated that this anthem does not "represent" him. Of course, I know what he means, but in fact, at least for the moment it does "represent" him! After all, Gerry Adams is the MP for West Belfast, which includes Linfield and Windsor Park within its boundaries, so he "represents" them just as surely!
For my own part, I wish GSTQ were replaced by something distinctively and uncontroversially "Norn Irish" (Danny Boy?), since it is the NI team I follow, not a UK team. As such, increasing numbers of fellow fans concur.
Regarding the flag, just as Windsor Park was named after the Windsor Mill, years before the Saxe-Coburg Gotha/Battenburg family adopted the name "Windsor", the UJ does not fly over Windsor Park.
It is a FIFA requirement that a national flag be flown at international games, and the "Stormont Banner" (to give it its correct title!) is the one we have.
It is also the one almost universally adopted by NI fans, to replace the UJs which many previously carried, although these days, the big majority drape themselves in at least 40 Shades of Green on matchdays!
Of course, I understand why Nationalists may feel uncomfortable. But whereas all are entitled to consideration for their feelings, you cannot have "half" a country, or something so diluted as to be a different country entirely, when we are talking about international football.
As a fan, you can't be "neutral" in your support, therefore a representative team cannot be "neutral". (Just as Gerry Adams can't be 85% SF and 15% Loyalist, like his Constituency!)
It's rather like the ROI team, which a few years back had many English-born players and manager whose links with with the Republic were often tenuous, to say the least. No-one ever suggested that the ROI's identity should in some way be diluted, in deference to these people's "Saxon" roots e.g by replacing the Soldiers Song with something else.

However, I sincerely don't want Nationalists to feel that they are therefore faced with a "take it or leave it" choice over flag and anthem, since that is to frame the question wrongly.
Instead, what is required is to re-frame the question on a sporting basis. The best example I can think of is when I go to Lansdowne to support the Irish Rugby team. I do not like the SS or Tricolour, since they really don't represent fans from NI like me. Personally, I would prefer if either both countries represented by the Ireland team were reflected, or (better still), the political/constitutional element were removed entirely, by just having Irelands Call and the Four provinces flag.
But in the end, it's only sport not war. I have always thought it far better just to show a degree of tolerance, respect flag and emblem for a couple of minutes and wait for the game to start.
And if that example doesn't persuade, then the best I can suggest is that of Gerry Armstrong, possibly NI's most popular player of the last 40 years. He is known to be proud of his roots in Beechmount and the Lower Falls. In his youth, he was a junior GAA star, representing his club at Croke Park (I believe).
He has never seen any problem with reconciling his love for Gaelic Games, organised on an all-Ireland basis, with his love for football, where he was a proud Northern Irishman.
I guess that's because whatever his own political opinion (of which no NI fan knows or cares), he was quite capable of distinguishing between politics and sport.
Which brings us back to the NI team. I am from NI, I'm interested in football, so I support the NI team. As such, no-one either forces me to, nor prevents me from doing so. I honestly know of no good reason why anyone else from NI should feel any differently unless, of course, they choose to.
In which case, it is not only our loss, but also theirs.

**David** · 25/08/2006, 7:27 AM

Excellent post Ealing Green although a few corrections. Windsor Park is not in West Belfast, it is in South Belfast although your point still stands. Adams is actually my MP and is MP for half the Shankill area. Secondly the Union Flag is flown at Windsor Park, on a flagpole beside the tunnel.

**Mr_Parker** · 25/08/2006, 9:06 AM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The UJ doesn't fly at NI internationals (and very few fans carry it now, as well). FIFA/UEFA require that National Flags be flown, so for NI, this is the NI flag.

EG, I haven't read through all the replies and I am not sure if this has already been mentioned but it is the Union Flag that flies over Windsor at NI games. There is no such thing as a NI flag. The flag you refer to is the flag of the now defunct NI Parliament and was confirmed to have no status by the British Government in 1973.