Darron Gibson

[osarusan]

I don't know about that, you'd have to think that Brazil's sixth or seventh rated central midfielder would have no trouble getting into most nation's first team.

That may be true, but I was disagreeing with this assumption -

If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

It is based on the idea that every player in a team is of the same standard as the standard of their team, and every player in a higher-ranked team will be equally more highly-skilled.

By that logic, considering their respective world rankings, Ian Dowie would have replaced George Weah as Liberia's striker.
Or, a less extreme comparison, England (ranked higher than us) would have a better keeper than ours, whereas I doubt very many of our fans would sacrifice Given for any current English keeper.

EDIT - As John83 has argued also.

It's hardly an exact science though. I don't doubt there are better teams than ours with inferior goalkeepers to Given, for example.

[ifk101]

That may be true, but I was disagreeing with this assumption -

It is based on the idea that every player in a team is of the same standard as the standard of their team, and every player in a higher-ranked team will be equally more highly-skilled.

By that logic, considering their respective world rankings, Ian Dowie would have replaced George Weah as Liberia's striker.

Or, a less startling comparison, England (ranked higher than us) would have a better keeper than ours, whereas I doubt very many of our fans would sacrifice Given for any current English keeper.

Yes I agree with what you are saying and any assessment of a particular player's ability is determined by a countless number of factors. But as a benchmark it is as good as any, although there obviously will be a number of clear cut exceptions.

[Uncle_Joe]

Evans is there as cover for Vidic or Ferdinand. He will play when one of them is injured, suspended or rested. Centre backs dont tend to be substituted for tactical reasons. So Evans is destined to walk the same path as John O'Shea and hover around the 20-30 games a season mark.
He is still a quality player but I cant see him dislodging vidic/ferdinand.

Same goes for Gibson but he has more competition I.M.O. I dont see either of them becoming part of the first team 11.

anybody else remember O'Sheas first season. The guy looked world class, and now he seems to have settled into his role as a decent player.

[EalingGreen]

This goes back to EG's assertion that Gibson would struggle to get a game with NI.

No, what I said was that Gibson would be in contention for a place in NI's CM, but only if two of Davis, Clingan or Johnson were unavailable. I've not checked, but I'm pretty sure that has only happened once or twice at most, since Gibson got the first of his four caps for the ROI.
Btw, do you think that that trio are somehow inferior to Whelan and Andrews, the two CM players who kept Gibson out of the ROI team v Georgia?

If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

Utter tosh.
When e.g. ROI were flying high in the Rankings in the mid 1990's and Liberia weren't even in the top 100, are you really suggesting therefore that Liberia's No.9 George Weah wasn't a better player than ROI No.9, Tony Cascarino? Cascarino was barely more Irish than Weah, never mind more accomplished...
Or to take it to the present day, are you saying that if Kevin Kilbane were from NI, he's get into our team ahead of George McCartney at LB?
Besides, iirc, NI were ahead of ROI in the Rankings when Gibson made his international debut.

No says EG because unknown to the international football world, NI has 3 or 4 and possibly 5 central midfielders that are much more than the typical journeymen of the lower British leagues that their various club situations would suggest.

I don't know why you continually misrepresent me, since you are only exposing your lack of integrity and/or basic intelligence.
I have never claimed that NI's present CM players are "superstars" etc. All I am saying is that at least three of them are more accomplished than Gibson, so that it would take at least two to be unavailable for Gibson to come into contention for a CM place.
I base that judgement on their respective records i.e. between them, the NI trio have literally hundreds of appearances at EPL, SPL or Championship level, plus 100 caps. Whereas Gibson made 20-odd appearances in the Championship and has yet to make a start (I think) in the EPL. (I don't consider Gibson's 30-odd appearances in the Belgian 2nd Division to be worthy of consideration in this respect)
Moreover, a credible judge like Trapattoni doesn't rate Gibson yet good enough to start competitive internationals, ahead of the likes of Whelan and Andrews, neither of whose record is any better than their NI counterparts imo.

With these superstars in their midst, you'd expect NI to be winning World Cups and what not.

Just as you'd expect e.g. ROI to be "winning World Cups and what not" when they could call upon genuinely World class players like Johnny Giles* and Liam Brady, for instance.

* - Remind me again, how many games was it ROI went without a single win when Giles was captaining them in the late 60's/early 70's? Twenty was it?

But no - NI are only capable of beating San Marino and Nigel Worthlesston's competitive record is worst than Stan's.

Irrelevant and disingenuous - well done!

Whilst Gibson is no world-beater, he'd walk into NI's team.

If you were picking it, maybe. Or Staunton perhaps.

Suggesting otherwise strikes of bitterness on EG's part that Gibson chose to play with Ireland ahead of NI.

In the end, I only want players who want to play for us. If Gibson prefers not to, that's up to him. Whether he should subsequently be entitled to play for another team is a separate matter.

To ease the pain, EG asserts that Jonny Evans is better than some chap called Pique

Wrong again. In assessing Gibson's suitability for international football (ROI or NI), I drew a comparison with Evans, since their background, circumstances and club career etc are so similar. I concluded that Evans is ready for international duty, whereas Gibson is not yet (other than in an injury crisis etc).
And my essential reasoning for this is that Ferguson clearly trusts Evans in big games for MU, whereas he does not yet trust Gibson the same way.
Pique only came into the argument as evidence of just how much Ferguson rates Evans, when he was prepared to let an undoubtedly class act like Pique leave OT, but not Evans.
Time will tell whether Pique turns out to be a better player than Evans, who knows? All I would say is that as of February 2008, both of them look as though they will go further in the game than Gibson.
Consequently, if I could only choose one of them for NI, it would be Evans first, Pique a close second and Gibson some way behind in third.
Pretty painless, really.

[youngirish]

That may be true, but I was disagreeing with this assumption -

It is based on the idea that every player in a team is of the same standard as the standard of their team, and every player in a higher-ranked team will be equally more highly-skilled.

By that logic, considering their respective world rankings, Ian Dowie would have replaced George Weah as Liberia's striker.
Or, a less extreme comparison, England (ranked higher than us) would have a better keeper than ours, whereas I doubt very many of our fans would sacrifice Given for any current English keeper.

EDIT - As John83 has argued also.

This argument is all very well and has been very informative but you seem to be missing the main point in the previous posts, Northern Ireland do not have better central midfield players than the ROI by any stretch of the imagination. Only Davis would get into our squad and he wouldn't even start under Trap as he's not the type of midfield player our manager looks for (indeed A Reid is a better alternative and he can't even get into the squad).

NI's other alternatives in Central Midfield, namely Johnson and Clingan are undeniably poorer than Andrews, Gibson and Whelan at present (and Stephen Reid, Andy Reid, Garvan and McCann if we really want to stick the boot in). Fahey gets into the Birmingham team ahead of Johnson so to claim he is a better option in midfield than we have available is just not true.

Let's put things into perspective here, Gibson has made more than twice as many appearances for United this season as Johnson has made for Birmingham so the statement that such a player would keep Gibson out of the NI team shows the insanity that's spouted as gospel by some north of the border.

[ifk101]

Your opinion is biased/coloured or whatever you want to called it when its comes to all matters NI, EG.

I'm attempting to remove the subjectivity involved in making comparisons between players whilst you keep on insisting that you know best.

And once again, why do you keeping going on about Jonny Evans?

[Gather round]

the insanity that's spouted as gospel by some north of the border

Hey, steady on. You're the one suggesting that San Marino are going to get eight points in these qualifiers

Your opinion is biased/coloured or whatever you want to called it when its comes to all matters NI, EG

Er, so is yours- even if it's just a wind-up rather than what you really think?

[ifk101]

Er, so is yours- even if it's just a wind-up rather than what you really think?

Yes my opinion is also biased - hence the need to find a benchmark that removes the bias in the various posters' opinions. The FIFA rankings show that despite NI supposedly having an accomplished set of midfielders, their results under Worthlesston don't reflect this. NI obviously lack the guile and quality in midfield required to be successful at international level that perhaps a midfielder from a higher ranked team could provide.

If the results aren't good enough it's either the players aren't good enough, the coaching isn't good enough or a combination of both. I think it's a combination of both and hence why I believe that Gibson would walk into the NI team as he provides a certain level of quality in midfield that's currently missing. But that's my opinion and it's not shared by EG.

[EalingGreen]

This argument is all very well and has been very informative but you seem to be missing the main point in the previous posts, Northern Ireland do not have better central midfield players than the ROI by any stretch of the imagination. Only Davis would get into out squad and he wouldn't even start under Trap as he's not the type of midfield player our manager looks for (indeed A Reid is a better alternative and he can't even get into the squad).

NI's other alternatives in Central Midfield, namely Johnson and Clingan are undeniably poorer than Andrews, Gibson and Whelan at present (and Stephen Reid, Andy Reid, Garvan and McCann if we really want to stick the boot in). Fahey gets into the Birmingham team ahead of Johnson so to claim he is a better option in midfield than we have available is just not true.

Utter nonsense, even by your standards.

The debate has NOT been about whether the ROI's midfield is better than NI's, it's about whether Gibson would get into the NI team.

And I have clearly stated, with evidence and statistics etc, why I don't think he would, other than when we had injury problems.

[Oh and btw, Birmingham Club Captain Johnson is just coming back from injury, having missed almost all of the season. When he's fully fit again, I suspect he'll add to his record of having appeared more times for Birmingham than any current player on their books. Whereas with the grand total of 6 senior appearances to date, I'd say Fahey still has a bit of catching up to do...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damien_Johnson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Fahey ]

Let's put things into perspective here, Gibson has made more than twice as many appearances for United this season as Johnson has made for Birmingham so the statement that such a player would keep Gibson out of the NI team shows the insanity that's spouted as gospel by some north of the border.

As indicated above, your Gibson vs Johnson comparison for the season to date betrays your ignorance.
As for "insanity", have you decided whether or not to stake all of your dinner money on San Marino finishing ahead of NI, or are you keeping some of it back for a Milky Bar from the Tuckshop?

[republicofwhite]

Could you imagine the sound of EalingGreen's voice? Shudder...

[EalingGreen]

Your opinion is biased/coloured or whatever you want to called it when its comes to all matters NI, EG.

Of course my opinion is "biased/coloured or whatever". Isn't yours?

I'm attempting to remove the subjectivity involved in making comparisons between players whilst you keep on insisting that you know best.

Oh right. And there's me thinking you were actually avoiding responding to my detailed rebuttal of your last post on the matter...

And once again, why do you keeping going on about Jonny Evans?

See post #428

[co. down green]

Same goes for Gibson but he has more competition I.M.O..

The Man United midfield is obviously the area with most competition for places, as Ferguson acknowledges.

"The young ones who have played in the League Cup will play in it," said Ferguson. "I'm not changing my mind on that one.

"The middle of midfield is my biggest problem. I've got more options there than anywhere else.

"I've got Anderson, Darren Fletcher, Michael Carrick and young Darron Gibson who is coming on in leaps and bounds. It gives me headaches, but more options."[/I]

[ifk101]

Of course my opinion is "biased/coloured or whatever". Isn't yours?

See post #432

Oh right. And there's me thinking you were actually avoiding responding to my detailed rebuttal of your last post on the matter...

See post #430 and #432

See post #428

The debate has NOT been about whether the ROI's midfield is better than NI's, it's about whether Gibson would get into the NI team.

[Brendan 82]

as Ferguson acknowledges.

"The middle of midfield is my biggest problem. I've got more options there than anywhere else.

"I've got Anderson, Darren Fletcher, Michael Carrick and young Darron Gibson who is coming on in leaps and bounds. It gives me headaches, but more options."[/i]

I think this is the point. Ferguson sees the trajectory and potential of this player increasing exponentially. Much like Steven Ireland did.

[Gather round]

Yes my opinion is also biased - hence the need to find a benchmark that removes the bias in the various posters' opinions. The FIFA rankings show that despite NI supposedly having an accomplished set of midfielders, their results under Worthlesston don't reflect this. NI obviously lack the guile and quality in midfield required to be successful at international level that perhaps a midfielder from a higher ranked team could provide.

Best benchmark is results over a whole competition, as I said. We were above expectation last time, below so far this- although I think we should reserve judgement until halfway (ie after the March/ April double-header).

Point taken about the lack of guile- clearly neither side has much of it at the moment, although our plan B seemed to work against Spain and Sweden last time?

Could you imagine the sound of EalingGreen's voice? Shudder...

He sounds fairly similar to me and (I guess) Co Down Green. What do you sound like, while we're at it?

[EalingGreen]

The FIFA rankings show that despite NI supposedly having an accomplished set of midfielders, their results under Worthlesston don't reflect this. NI obviously lack the guile and quality in midfield required to be successful at international level that perhaps a midfielder from a higher ranked team could provide.

More tosh.
For even if you accept the Rankings as being completely authoritative (somewhat questionable imo), those rankings are a reflection of a team of XI players, not that of the players in two CM positions.
For example, in Gerrard and Lampard, England have two of the best CM players in the world. But there are several teams with inferior players in that position who are better overall than England.

If the results aren't good enough it's either the players aren't good enough, the coaching isn't good enough or a combination of both. I think it's a combination of both and hence why I believe that Gibson would walk into the NI team as he provides a certain level of quality in midfield that's currently missing. But that's my opinion and it's not shared by EG.

Jeez, if it was a competition to see who can most spectacularly miss the point often enough, you'd be 3rd in the Rankings, only behind Young Irish and Kingdom Kerry!
Two or three years ago, NI were way above ROI in the Rankings and flying high, with victories over the likes of England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark under their belt.
Since then, there have been a number of changes which have seen us slip down, most notably a change of manager and a slump in form and fitness of by far our most influential player, Healy.
But one of the few constants remaining is that our four first choice Central Midfielders then were Johnson, Davis, Clingan and McCann and our four first choice Central Midfielders now are Johnson, Davis, Clingan and McCann. And considering Johnson is only just 30, with the other three in their mid 20's, they can hardly be said now to be over the hill. If anything, at least two of them (Clingan and McCann) have improved since.
Which is why, if they were good enough to compete on the international stage then, they should be able to do so now.
Whereas by his record to date, Gibson has yet to prove he can (imo).

[youngirish]

Utter nonsense, even by your standards.

The debate has NOT been about whether the ROI's midfield is better than NI's, it's about whether Gibson would get into the NI team.

And I have clearly stated, with evidence and statistics etc, why I don't think he would, other than when we had injury problems.

[Oh and btw, Birmingham Club Captain Johnson is just coming back from injury, having missed almost all of the season. When he's fully fit again, I suspect he'll add to his record of having appeared more times for Birmingham than any current player on their books. Whereas with the grand total of 6 senior appearances to date, I'd say Fahey still has a bit of catching up to do...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damien_Johnson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Fahey ]


As indicated above, your Gibson vs Johnson comparison for the season to date betrays your ignorance.
As for "insanity", have you decided whether or not to stake all of your dinner money on San Marino finishing ahead of NI, or are you keeping some of it back for a Milky Bar from the Tuckshop?

Johnson has been back from injury since December around about the same time Gibson start getting games for United.

[paul_oshea]

That's pretty much where Portugal found Deco.

It's hardly an exact science though. I don't doubt there are better teams than ours with inferior goalkeepers to Given, for example.

its all about averages.

[kingdomkerry]

Nobody wants to talk about any player other than Ireland players!

[EalingGreen]

The Man United midfield is obviously the area with most competition for places, as Ferguson acknowledges.

"The young ones who have played in the League Cup will play in it," said Ferguson. "I'm not changing my mind on that one.

"The middle of midfield is my biggest problem. I've got more options there than anywhere else.

"I've got Anderson, Darren Fletcher, Michael Carrick and young Darron Gibson who is coming on in leaps and bounds. It gives me headaches, but more options."[/I]

Misses the point.
Ferguson has certainly got plenty of CM options for lesser games like the Carling Cup (or "dead" CL games), where he trusts players like Gibson to be competitive.
But Gibson clearly isn't (yet) an option for the big games (EPL and critical CL), otherwise he'd be picking him more often.
Which explains why e.g. Gibson may start ahead of Scholes at Wembley against Spurs, but he's not likely to at OT against Inter.

Don't get me wrong, Gibson is obviously a prospect and has improved noticeably this season.

But imo, he's still only a fringe/second string/Reserve player i.e. he still has a hell of a lot to do before he becomes an established and experienced EPL or Championship player. And until he does, he cannot really be called international class, either for ROI or NI*

* - Had he opted to stay, that is.