Darron Gibson

[Stuttgart88]

Central midfield is, without doubt, a problem area for us. I think we have plenty of options but we haven't found the right balance/partnership for the centre in Steven Reid's absence.

NI's results speak for themselves. A comparison of Stan's competitive record shows that he amassed more points that Nigel Worthlesston was capable of doing in the same number of games. If we are to believe EG, NI's team has a strong spine - ie central defence, central midfield, strikers. Unfortunately for his assertion, the results suggest otherwise. It's also hard to know if NI's midfield was competitive under Sanchez as the midfield was invariably by-passed with long balls up to Lafferty.

Interesting.

It's funny what's perceived as success I suppose. Then again, a win over Spain, a win a draw against Sweden & Denmark, and whatever else they got (can't actually remember) are damned good results. Quality not quantity. Certainly if you brush their bad results under the carpet their better results were better than our better results (what good results?) but you can't get anywhere in these groups without accumulating points against the likes of Georgia, Montenegro and Cyprus (oh, how our media & some here have been moaning), or Iceland and Lithuania(?).

I do agree with Geysir in that I suspect that if Gibson was still playing for NI EG's glass would be more than half-full rather than its current nearly empty state. He certainly looks like a player well capable of cutting it in the top flight, now or in due course. Even if this is not at United it's hardly a bad indictment.

[Gather round]

Fly- I know there's a recession on, but probably ManU are planning to splash EU 20 million on a new centre back/ solid midfielder as we speak. And Vidic (or his agent) fancies working on the suntan in Spain. Hard to say what'll happen to the fringe players.

S88- success for us is challenging credibly up to and including the last game (of 12 last time). So Euro 08 was a limited success. I'm assuming your rather higher test of success is qualifying. In the longer term- last 10-15 years- we've both clearly been pretty unsuccessful.

[Irish_Praha]

Scholes and Giggs will most likely be gone at the end of next season. Hargreaves is suffering from long-term injury. Fletcher, while useful, is only an above average squad player. Carrick and Anderson have both developed into very good players, both exceeding my expections of them. However neither player is, to use that much over-used word, 'great' nor will either ever will be a truly great player. In conclusion, I suppose neither player represents any kind of insurmountable obstacle or daunting challenge for any talented young player, like Darron, hoping to break into the first team.

As things stand these are all very valid points but ..

Fly- I know there's a recession on, but probably ManU are planning to splash EU 20 million on a new centre back/ solid midfielder as we speak. And Vidic (or his agent) fancies working on the suntan in Spain. Hard to say what'll happen to the fringe players.

I made this point earlier in the thread. Scholes and Giggs may well be on the way out and the remaining competition is very good but not world class. However, ManU are English/European/World club champions with a very large transfer budget. Gibson won't end up in the team by default and if he doesn't perform to a certain expected level they can easily bring in a few top class midfielders. It can be that he will be given more of a chance to prove himself before they splash out the cash though, which is a good thing. Only time will tell if he is up to the challenge.

[Razors left peg]

As things stand these are all very valid points but ..





I made this point earlier in the thread. Scholes and Giggs may well be on the way out and the remaining competition is very good but not world class. However, ManU are English/European/World club champions with a very large transfer budget. Gibson won't end up in the team by default and if he doesn't perform to a certain expected level they can easily bring in a few top class midfielders. It can be that he will be given more of a chance to prove himself before they splash out the cash though, which is a good thing. Only time will tell if he is up to the challenge.

He cant really do much more than he is doing at the moment to be fair, man of the match at the weekend and some good performances in the carling cup.At least the lad seems to be able to step up and take his chances when they are being given. Something I dont ever remember Liam Miller doing in a Man United shirt for example

[kingdomkerry]

Fly- I know there's a recession on, but probably ManU are planning to splash EU 20 million on a new centre back/ solid midfielder as we speak. And Vidic (or his agent) fancies working on the suntan in Spain. Hard to say what'll happen to the fringe players.

S88- success for us is challenging credibly up to and including the last game (of 12 last time). So Euro 08 was a limited success. I'm assuming your rather higher test of success is qualifying. In the longer term- last 10-15 years- we've both clearly been pretty unsuccessful.

Yes the measure of success is qualifying for tournaments and how well a team does when they get there.

But to to say both have been pretty unsuccessful is wrong. Were you watching euro 88, italia 90, usa 94 and korea/japan 02. Ireland were never far away from qualifying for the competitions in between.

NI will never qualify for a world cup IMO. An All Ireland team is what is needed where protestant and catholic and others can unite behind one very successful team.

[EalingGreen]

A comparison of Stan's competitive record shows that he amassed more points that Nigel Worthlesston was capable of doing in the same number of games.

And against the same calibre of opponent? I'd be grateful if you posted the respective records of SS and NW.

If we are to believe EG, NI's team has a strong spine - ie central defence, central midfield, strikers. Unfortunately for his assertion, the results suggest otherwise.

Broadly correct (in bold), but the team as a whole hasn't been helped by the change of manager nor, more importantly, the fact that Healy has gone off the boil since his (incredible) run of 13 goals in 12 Euro Qualifiers.

It's also hard to know if NI's midfield was competitive under Sanchez as the midfield was invariably by-passed with long balls up to Lafferty.

Balls. The whole point about NI under Sanchez was that they played a pressing game, not a long ball game. As such, it was imperative that the midfield "got in the faces" of their opponents at every opportunity. They were invariably hugely effective when doing so at Windsor, but struggled to do so away from home. And Lafferty didn't even play half the games Sanchez was in charge.

[Fergie's Son]

I think Gibson is doing well in an incredibly competitive environment. I would be comfortable saying that he has a career as a centre midfield player at the Premiership level. Perhaps not for United but for a prem-level team.

And EG, fact is NI haven't really be close to qualifying in some time. They do tend to show up at the odd big game but then they struggle against marginal opposition. Would it be safe to say that they are already out of the running for 2010?

[EalingGreen]

No doubt if Gibson was NI eligible,

I think you'll find that Gibson is/was eligible for NI. (The question was whether he was also eligible for ROI.)

the OWC would be purring at the prospect of a hope that he could come into their team

Assuming he was committed to playing for the international he team he first represented, then I'm sure most NI fans would be pleased to have him available to the squad - increased competition and all that.
But I still don't see that his progress to date would make him more than 4th or 5th choice for one of our two centre midfield spots.
Of course, he may well improve significantly in the next year or two, but so, I imagine, will Davis and Clingan and if Johnson has better luck with injuries than he's endured over the last couple of years, then that will almost be like acquiring a new player.
Anyhow, the anger in OWC over Gibson's defection has subsided somewhat over the last year or two, not least because we've seen that Gibson is actually closer to "Naughty Boy" than "Messiah"!

assist that bunch of over performers out of their destined (overperformed), 'odds on' 5th place, just ahead of San Marino.

When his "assistance" for ROI on the field is still somewhat limited, I fail to see how Gibson could do very much for NI from the bench...
As for the rest, Que sera sera...

[EalingGreen]

The jury may be out on Gibson, but I think its pretty clear what Johnson and Clingan are - Journeymen!!. Davis is a bit of an enigma, looked promising at Villa, anonymous and ineffectual at Fulham and a decent performer for Rangers, but there again Liam Miller looked like a worldbeater in the SPL.

Whether "Journeymen" or "Enigma", I personally wouldn't swap any of them for Gibson and nor, I'm sure, would many of my fellow NI fans.
Of course, Gibson is still young and so may develop into an excellent player. Then again, that's what many people said about, ahem, Liam Miller at the time Ferguson signed him for MU...

[Gather round]

But to to say both have been pretty unsuccessful is wrong. Were you watching euro 88, italia 90, usa 94 and korea/japan 02. Ireland were never far away from qualifying for the competitions in between

You agree the test of success is qualification, so qualifying for one tournament of the last seven clearly isn't successful, eh?

An All Ireland team is what is needed where protestant and catholic and others can unite behind one very successful team

Zzzz.

[kingdomkerry]

You agree the test of success is qualification, so qualifying for one tournament of the last seven clearly isn't successful, eh?



Zzzz.

No but qualifying for 4 out of eight is'nt too bad considering they 88 was our first.

[EalingGreen]

EG -

I agree with you on young Evans - a fantastic young player. He is one of the best young centre-halfs I've seen in quite some time. I only wish he played for us, I'd take him in a heartbeat. He is as you rightly say ahead of Gibson in the pecking order at MU, comparatively speaking. He is now third choice at centre back and is as you say better than O'Shea, Neville and Brown.

Gibson is obviously further down the pecking order is his own area of the pitch. Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Anderson, Fletcher and Hargreaves are all ahead of him. Gibson though, is ahead of Possebon - his rival out of the MU youth sides. However there is a difference here, in comparison to Evans.

Scholes and Giggs will most likely be gone at the end of next season. Hargreaves is suffering from long-term injury. Fletcher, while useful, is only an above average squad player. Carrick and Anderson have both developed into very good players, both exceeding my expections of them. However neither player is, to use that much over-used word, 'great' nor will either ever will be a truly great player. In conclusion, I suppose neither player represents any kind of insurmountable obstacle or daunting challenge for any talented young player, like Darron, hoping to break into the first team.

This is in contrast to Evans, who although now third choice and a fantastic prospect, does face having to dislodge either Ferdinand or Vidic - and that ain't gonna happen. I see the Ferdinand/Vidic partnership remaining at MU, barring serious injury of course, for at least the next 3 seasons.

In that respect Evans' challenge is greater than Gibson's.

A lot of sense there, Fly.

As regards Gibson, I guess what I'm saying is that as young MU prospects go, he's clearly no Beckham, Scoles, Giggs, or Gary Neville etc.
Tbf, he's likely got a bit more about him than, say, Liam Miller, Paul Mcshane or Frazier Campbell.
Most likely he'll fall somewhere in between - e.g. a Darren Fletcher, or John O'Shea.
Which is no shame whatever; as such, he'll make a very sound acquisition for ROI and will be a loss for NI.

I daresay we'll live with that loss, mind, unlike if it were Evans, for instance.

[Wexford Delboy]

simple fact if he wasnt startin 2 impress this thread wouldnt be gettin so much attention

[EalingGreen]

NI will never qualify for a world cup IMO.

I can live with that. If qualification for World Cups etc was the "be all and end all" of being a fan, I'd support Brazil or somesuch, but I never had any time for Gloryhunters...

An All Ireland team is what is needed where protestant and catholic and others can unite behind one very successful team.

Yawn.

[tricky_colour]

Yes the measure of success is qualifying for tournaments and how well a team does when they get there.

But to to say both have been pretty unsuccessful is wrong. Were you watching euro 88, italia 90, usa 94 and korea/japan 02. Ireland were never far away from qualifying for the competitions in between.

NI will never qualify for a world cup IMO. An All Ireland team is what is needed where protestant and catholic and others can unite behind one very successful team.

Given that NI have qualified for the World Cup twice and indeed reached the quarter finals twice, to say they will never qualify for the world cup seem rather unfair.

[EalingGreen]

Given that NI have qualified for the World Cup twice and indeed reached the quarter finals twice, to say they will never qualify for the world cup seem rather unfair.

Thrice, actually - 1958, 1982 and 1986 (though you were right about twice getting to the Qtr Finals, or equivalent - 58 and 82)
We've also won more games than ROI when we got there and topped our Group in 1982, as well.

[ifk101]

And against the same calibre of opponent? I'd be grateful if you posted the respective records of SS and NW .

Staunton
Germany (a) 1-0,
Cyprus (a) 5-2,
Czech Rep. (h) 1-1,
San Marino (h) 5-0,
San Marino (a) 1-2,
Wales (h) 1-0,
Slovakia (h) 1-0,
Slovakia (a) 2-2,
Czech Republic (a) 1-0,
Germany (h) 1-1,
Cyprus (h) 1-1.

11 competitive games – 16 points.

Worthlesston
Liechtenstein (h) 3-1,
Latvia (a) 1-0,
Iceland (a) 2-1,
Sweden (a) 1-1,
Denmark (h) 2-1,
Spain (a) 1-0,
Slovakia (a) 2-1,
Czech Republic (h) 0-0
Slovenia (a) 2-0
San Marino (h) 4-0
San Marino (a) 0-3

11 competitive games - 14 points

You can't really disregard the comparison here EG because both teams have played San Marino twice (6 points) whilst NI has had the added bonus of playing Liechtenstein. And let's not forget, both Denmark and Spain fielded weakened teams against NI.

As bad as Stan was, results state that he's better than Nigel Worthlesston.

Balls. The whole point about NI under Sanchez was that they played a pressing game, not a long ball game. As such, it was imperative that the midfield "got in the faces" of their opponents at every opportunity. They were invariably hugely effective when doing so at Windsor, but struggled to do so away from home. And Lafferty didn't even play half the games Sanchez was in charge.

Pressing game . Send long balls in behind the opposition's defence and close them down. We've seen it all before - call it long ball football, direct play or pressing. In absence of Lafferty, NI did play with another target man, no?

Anyways getting back to main topic of discussion, I think Gibson has a long way to go before he is a regular at international level for us. But given NI's poor list of results under Worthlesston, I'm sure Gibson would have gotten plenty of chances to play for NI by now. Managers do try to change the team around when results aren't going to plan - if they have the option(s) to do that.

[Stuttgart88]

I think you'll find that Gibson is/was eligible for NI.

From one pedant to another, surely the fact is that he is no longer eligible for NI.

[Gather round]

And let's not forget, both Denmark and Spain fielded weakened teams against NI

Given that Denmark has a playing pool three or four times bigger than ours, and that they needed to win the game to retain an outside chance of qualifying, I suspect that any 'weakness' in their team was hardly deliberate or deserving of much sympathy.

As for Spain, their side looked strong enough to me. I suspect they took the game pretty seriously, what with already having been embarrassed by us and all.

Did Nigel Worthington steal your pint, or what?

[EalingGreen]

Staunton
Germany (a) 1-0,
Cyprus (a) 5-2,
Czech Rep. (h) 1-1,
San Marino (h) 5-0,
San Marino (a) 1-2,
Wales (h) 1-0,
Slovakia (h) 1-0,
Slovakia (a) 2-2,
Czech Republic (a) 1-0,
Germany (h) 1-1,
Cyprus (h) 1-1.

11 competitive games – 16 points.

Worthlesston
Liechtenstein (h) 3-1,
Latvia (a) 1-0,
Iceland (a) 2-1,
Sweden (a) 1-1,
Denmark (h) 2-1,
Spain (a) 1-0,
Slovakia (a) 2-1,
Czech Republic (h) 0-0
Slovenia (a) 2-0
San Marino (h) 4-0
San Marino (a) 0-3

11 competitive games - 14 points

You can't really disregard the comparison here EG because both teams have played San Marino twice (6 points) whilst NI has had the added bonus of playing Liechtenstein. And let's not forget, both Denmark and Spain fielded weakened teams against NI.

As bad as Stan was, results state that he's better than Nigel Worthlesston.

"Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics". I couldn't be arsed going through individual results and performances etc, but if you genuinely consider that Steve Staunton is/was a "better" manager than Worthington*, then I think you should go and lie down in a darkened room for a while.

P.S. When Denmark came to Windsor, they were on the same points as NI i.e. still in with a chance of qualifying.

P.P.S. Of the Spain players who beat NI 1-0 (with a deflected shot, btw), every one was with a Primera Liga or EPL team, with seven of them going on to play in the final vs Germany. Not what I'd call "weak"...

* - Nigel or his missus...

Pressing game. Send long balls in behind the opposition's defence and close them down. We've seen it all before - call it long ball football, direct play or pressing.

Er, "Pressing" is when you push up on the opposition and compact them, "long ball" is where draw them in and stretch them. In so far as they compare, they are contradictory...

In absence of Lafferty, NI did play with another target man, no?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For example, when we beat Denmark, we had Feeney and Healy up front - both 5'8" - plus two orthodox wingers in Gillespie and Brunt. Considering Denmark's two CBs and Keeper were all 6'3" or above, it would have been madness to attempt to play "long ball" against them with that line-up.

Anyways getting back to main topic of discussion, I think Gibson has a long way to go before he is a regular at international level for us. But given NI's poor list of results under Worthlesston, I'm sure Gibson would have gotten plenty of chances to play for NI by now. Managers do try to change the team around when results aren't going to plan - if they have the option(s) to do that.

And I'm sure he wouldn't. But what do I know - I only watch them play, after all...