Darron Gibson

[Den Perry]

On the basis that Quality trumps Quantity, you can have Gibson and Wilson, as "surplus to requirements"

Ealing Green - you really are a pain in the hole (imo)

[youngirish]

Ealing Geen

Most of us are well aware that Evans is a more established player at UTD than Gibson for now anyway. The best of luck to the Lad and Gibson as well. Its no mean achievment to be anywhere near the first team panel at UTD.
Hopefully Gibson will make the grade as well and from an International point of view have the honour and glory of displaying his footballing skills at that wonderful new stadium at Landsdowne RD.
I would encourage all players from wherever they are on the island of Ireland to take the opportunity to regularly display their skills at our fantastic new stadium.
It begs one to wonder do players like Jonny Evans regret his choice when he has to turn out at that shabby excuse for a stadium that is Wobbly Windsor Park

Gibson is now as established at Old Trafford as Johnny Evans had been up until a mere 3 or 4 months ago. Whatever EG likes to delude himself into believing we will have to wait and watch United closely over the next season or so to determine which of the two (if either) has a long term future at Old Trafford. Just because Evans has been around the first team squad for a few months longer than Gibson means nothing at this early stage of their respective careers.

I would also dismiss his claim that United are as strong at centre back as they are in central midfield. Outside Vidic and Ferdinand they haven't a single decent option at centre back (JOS and Wes Brown are not anywhere near top quality central defenders imo). Evans has few challengers for a place in the starting 11 if either Vidic or Ferdinand are injured, suspended or simply being rested..

For the record I have my doubts if either has a long term future at OT. Evans could easily see himself drop down the pecking order if Ferguson invests in a new central defender over the summer while Gibson will be vying for a place with Carrick, Scholes, Fletcher, Anderson and a fit again Hargreaves next season. If you doubt my assessment just remember that very few youth players have made the grade at Old Trafford in recent years, only Fletcher and O'Shea spring to mind and both are bit part players at best.

[ifk101]

Ealing Green - you really are a pain in the hole (imo)

Anyways EG is just trying to put a brave face on things. Think about it.

He has been following these lads (Gibson and Wilson) since an early age expecting them at some point in the future to line out in NI's colours. And what happens? Just when it looks like there're going to make the step up to the senior squad, they decide to follow their hearts and declare for us. Whilst EG can console himself in thinking that these lads are ultimately no good, there are going to be plenty of cases further down the line where NI born players declare for us.

It's not a good time to be a NI fan and it's not going to get any better. Especially now that Gibson is starting to break into the first team at ManU.

[shakermaker1982]

centre back is his preferred position...

have you asked him? Seriously. I'd like to play centre forward but I'm better in defence. It's where your manager sees you fitting in which is important.

O'Shea isn't good enough to play centre back at a top club like Man United. Very few are. He's playing his best football this year since his debut season and that is in the full back slot. Fergie must know what his best position is?

[geysir]

I'm surprised nobody picked up on this extract from the Mail article I posted previously (which in fairness was streets ahead of Irish papers & some posters here when it comes to capitalising north and south in the Irish context).

"When I got my chance with my country, I got it with my club."

I did note this in the Mail article
'while at Old Trafford moves are already afoot to secure him on a new contract that would afford him equal standing to his mate Evans'

I think we just have to take the good stuff and ignore the dross.
The article also said that FIFA have closed the loophole which allowed him to play for his country.
Which puts the journalist way down on a mental par with the IFA

[EalingGreen]

Gibson is now as established at Old Trafford as Johnny Evans had been up until a mere 3 or 4 months ago. Whatever EG likes to delude himself into believing we will have to wait and watch United closely over the next season or so to determine which of the two (if either) has a long term future at Old Trafford. Just because Evans has been around the first team squad for a few months longer than Gibson means nothing at this early stage of their respective careers.

I would also dismiss his claim that United are as strong at centre back as they are in central midfield. Outside Vidic and Ferdinand they haven't a single decent option at centre back (JOS and Wes Brown are not anywhere near top quality central defenders imo). Evans has few challengers for a place in the starting 11 if either Vidic or Ferdinand are injured, suspended or simply being rested..

Am I missing something here? For you seem to be arguing that MU have many more quality Centre Midfielders than they have quality Centre Backs, yet Evans's place at OT is no more secure than Gibson's? Bizarre logic.

For the record I have my doubts if either has a long term future at OT. Evans could easily see himself drop down the pecking order if Ferguson invests in a new central defender over the summer while Gibson will be vying for a place with Carrick, Scholes, Fletcher, Anderson and a fit again Hargreaves next season. If you doubt my assessment just remember that very few youth players have made the grade at Old Trafford in recent years, only Fletcher and O'Shea spring to mind and both are bit part players at best.

Of course Ferguson might invest in a new CB at any time to supplant Evans, just as he might buy a new CM player to supplant Gibson.
But if MU are so short on suitable CB's as you suggest, how do you explain their selling an undoubted quality player in Pique at the beginning of the season for a relatively small sum, or the fact that MU's assault on 5 trophies this season has been based on the tightest defence English football has seen in decades?
And if Evans's place in the existing cast of CB's at OT is so precarious, how do you explain Ferguson turning down an £8m bid from Sunderland, along with Evans foregoing the guaranteed starting place in an EPL club that would have gone with it?
If Ferguson doesn't rate Evans, what was behind his recent decision to give Evans a 5 year contract on quadrupled wages?

The facts demonstrate that Gibson is presently where Evans was at the start of the 2007-08 Season i.e. scratching around for gametime with the MU First team.
When these weren't really coming, Evans's response was to go on loan again to Sunderland in Jan.2008, where the experience he gained (plus with NI) moved his career up a level.
He's now reaping the benefit of that uplift, by having established himself firmly in the matchday 18, where he starts anytime Ferdinand or Vidic is unavailable.

Whereas Gibson has seemingly decided to stay at OT and fight for a place from the fringes. Fair enough, he might make it, but whatever the odds, he's undeniably still got further to go than Evans.

(Still, his choice of international team was probably a wise one, since with four ROI caps, he's probably better off than he would had he stayed with NI...)

[EalingGreen]

Anyways EG is just trying to put a brave face on things. Think about it.

He has been following these lads since an early age expecting them at some point in the future to line out in NI's colours. And what happens? Just when it looks like there're going to make the step up to the senior squad, they decide to follow their hearts and declare for us. Whilst EG can console himself in thinking that these lads are ultimately no good, there are going to be plenty of cases further down the line where NI born players declare for us.

It's not a good time to be a NI fan and it's not going to get any better.

"Topic of discussion is Gibson" - ifk101, 25/02/2009 11.24 am

[kingdomkerry]

"Topic of discussion is Gibson" - ifk101, 25/02/2009 11.24 am

It was until you hijacked the thread to spout sh1te about the pub team up north.

[ifk101]

"Topic of discussion is Gibson" - ifk101, 25/02/2009 11.24 am

Not that you care

Post edited just for you.

[youngirish]

Am I missing something here? For you seem to be arguing that MU have many more quality Centre Midfielders than they have quality Centre Backs, yet Evans's place at OT is no more secure than Gibson's? Bizarre logic.

Ah EG you are so easily confused when it comes to logic. I stated a few lines later that Ferguson could easily snap up a central defender in the summer (it all depends on how they do in the Champions League and Premiership this year imo) and if he decides to do so Evans could easily find himself sitting on the bench next season instead of clocking up game time on the pitch. It's early days for both and that's why I don't see how you can judge that Evans' position in the long term is any more secure than Gibson.

But if MU are so short on suitable CB's as you suggest, how do you explain their selling an undoubted quality player in Pique at the beginning of the season for a relatively small sum, or the fact that MU's assault on 5 trophies this season has been based on the tightest defence English football has seen in decades?
And if Evans's place in the existing cast of CB's at OT is so precarious, how do you explain Ferguson turning down an £8m bid from Sunderland, along with Evans foregoing the guaranteed starting place in an EPL club that would have gone with it?
If Ferguson doesn't rate Evans, what was behind his recent decision to give Evans a 5 year contract on quadrupled wages?

I love your points about Pique. It's typical EG. Why bother with facts when hearsay, speculation and conjecture will do just as well. Have you ever considered that maybe Pique wanted to move? Perhaps he was homesick. Maybe he didn't fancy playing second fiddle to Ferdinand and Vidic at United in the same way that Evans seems happy to do. Who knows, perhaps he thought Manchester was a sh*t place to spend his youth. The fact is that you don't know the reasons why he left and neither do I. However I doubt it was because he knew he would be behind Evans in the pecking order at Old Trafford for the whole season.

And finally how do you know it was Ferguson that turned down an 8 millioin bid from Sunderland? Was it actually confirmed they offered 8 million upfront? Perhaps it was Evans that didn't want to leave more so than Ferguson insisting he stay. Either way Ferguson's priority in the transfer window was to acquire Berbatov so maybe he was happy to let Evans stay as backup for the defence instead of him having to look for and sign a new defender in addition to trying to pry Berbatov away from Spurs. Also to back up your claim of how highly Ferguson rates Evans you mention that he quadrupled his wages. Even if this were fact (which considering your other points I'll take with a pinch of salt thank you very much) this is the sort of standard increase any player would expect when progressing from being a youth team player to a first team squad member.

(Still, his choice of international team was probably a wise one, since with four ROI caps, he's probably better off than he would had he stayed with NI...)

We can agree on this last point as yes I'd say he is delighted he chose to get 4 caps with a team joint top of their qualifying group and with a real chance of going to the World Cup rather than settling for perhaps double the number of appearances for another team who are in reality fighting it out with San Marino for second bottom.

[Gather round]

a team joint top of their qualifying group and with a real chance of going to the World Cup...another team who are in reality fighting it out with San Marino for second bottom

I realise you're exaggerating for comic effect YI, but believe me there's very little chance of SMR getting any points in this group, let alone the eight they need to overtake us for fifth place. We may well be sh*t, but then we only needed five minutes to end the game over there as a contest.

I'm backing Trap and the boys to make the play offs, and who knows if you can take points off the Italians in Bari? On the other hand, let's not get carried away, plenty of games to go yet. If Georgia finish bottom, as looks likely on current form, you 'lose' those six points in the calculation to eliminate one of the runners-up from the play off.

Sorry to go off-topic.

[ifk101]

I realise you're exaggerating for comic effect YI, but believe me there's very little chance of SMR getting any points in this group, let alone the eight they need to overtake us for fifth place. We may well be sh*t, but then we only needed five minutes to end the game over there as a contest.

I'm backing Trap and the boys to make the play offs, and who knows if you can take points off the Italians in Bari? On the other hand, let's not get carried away, plenty of games to go yet. If Georgia finish bottom, as looks likely on current form, you 'lose' those six points in the calculation to eliminate one of the runners-up from the play off.

Sorry to go off-topic.

This goes back to EG's assertion that Gibson would struggle to get a game with NI. If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

No says EG because unknown to the international football world, NI has 3 or 4 and possibly 5 central midfielders that are much more than the typical journeymen of the lower British leagues that their various club situations would suggest. With these superstars in their midst, you'd expect NI to be winning World Cups and what not. But no - NI are only capable of beating San Marino and Nigel Worthlesston's competitive record is worst than Stan's.

Whilst Gibson is no world-beater, he'd walk into NI's team. Suggesting otherwise strikes of bitterness on EG's part that Gibson chose to play with Ireland ahead of NI. To ease the pain, EG asserts that Jonny Evans is better than some chap called Pique

[Gather round]

1fk- whatever. As I mentioned above, I've no bitterness about Gibson choosing not to play for us, and agree he'd have got more caps in our squad. That said, being a ManU fringe player wouldn't necessarily guarantee a start as you suggest- Chris 'sleeping' Brunt-y has lost out to people at a lower club level (Lafferty, McCann) basically because Worthington seems to agree with the fans that CB's an idle bugger

[DeLorean]

If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

Wrong, because it has since emerged that he shouldn't have got capped with ROI (not in an important qualifier anyway) and this was rectified for our most recent match.

[ifk101]

1fk- whatever. As I mentioned above, I've no bitterness about Gibson choosing not to play for us, and agree he'd have got more caps in our squad. That said, being a ManU fringe player wouldn't necessarily guarantee a start as you suggest- Chris 'sleeping' Brunt-y has lost out to people at a lower club level (Lafferty, McCann) basically because Worthington seems to agree with the fans that CB's an idle bugger

Fair enough.

But anyways despite Gibson chosing us, the good news from a NI perspective is that Jeff Whitley is on the come back trail. So it's not all bad.

[tetsujin1979]

Fair enough.

But anyways despite Gibson chosing us, the good news from a NI perspective is that Jeff Whitley is on the come back trail. So it's not all bad.

That's a bit of a low blow... http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....0life%20around

[osarusan]

If Gibson can be capped with a team that's higher ranked than NI (and by some margin as well), we can assume that Gibson would easily get his game with NI, right?

That's terribly flawed thinking really.

[Colbert Report]

That's terribly flawed thinking really.

I don't know about that, you'd have to think that Brazil's sixth or seventh rated central midfielder would have no trouble getting into most nation's first team.

[John83]

I don't know about that, you'd have to think that Brazil's sixth or seventh rated central midfielder would have no trouble getting into most nation's first team.

That's pretty much where Portugal found Deco.

It's hardly an exact science though. I don't doubt there are better teams than ours with inferior goalkeepers to Given, for example.

[EalingGreen]

Ah EG you are so easily confused when it comes to logic.

Hmmm, let's see what the "logic" there is in the following...

I stated a few lines later that Ferguson could easily snap up a central defender in the summer (it all depends on how they do in the Champions League and Premiership this year imo) and if he decides to do so Evans could easily find himself sitting on the bench next season instead of clocking up game time on the pitch. It's early days for both and that's why I don't see how you can judge that Evans' position in the long term is any more secure than Gibson.

Right, so "Ferguson could blah, blah, blah". Which one would that be of the "hearsay, conjecture and speculation" you accuse me of?
The fact and the logic is, that having sold one quality young CB (Pique) in the Summer, Ferguson could have bought a replacement, but didn't. Moreover, his defence this season has proved tighter than a duck's arse, which hardly suggests he needs extra CB cover.
Besides, your "logic" dictates that Ferguson could just as easily sign an established Centre Midfielder next Summer, thereby putting more pressure on Gibson's place.

I love your points about Pique. It's typical EG. Why bother with facts when hearsay, speculation and conjecture will do just as well. Have you ever considered that maybe Pique wanted to move? Perhaps he was homesick. Maybe he didn't fancy playing second fiddle to Ferdinand and Vidic at United in the same way that Evans seems happy to do. Who knows, perhaps he thought Manchester was a sh*t place to spend his youth. The fact is that you don't know the reasons why he left and neither do I. However I doubt it was because he knew he would be behind Evans in the pecking order at Old Trafford for the whole season.

And finally how do you know it was Ferguson that turned down an 8 millioin bid from Sunderland? Was it actually confirmed they offered 8 million upfront? Perhaps it was Evans that didn't want to leave more so than Ferguson insisting he stay. Either way Ferguson's priority in the transfer window was to acquire Berbatov so maybe he was happy to let Evans stay as backup for the defence instead of him having to look for and sign a new defender in addition to trying to pry Berbatov away from Spurs.

A number of scenarios are possible, for instance that Pique was determined to go, and Evans was determined to stay. Or that the issue of Berbatov had no relevance whatever to MU's defensive needs...
One thing is indisputable, however. Namely, having lost one undeniably talented CB in Pique, we must assume Ferguson was happy enough with his remaining cover at CB, since he didn't attempt to sign another CB to replace him.
Moreover, events this season indicate that that pre-season judgement was correct. And part of that judgement is that Evans will be his "go-to" CB, should either of (the world-class) Vidic or Ferdinand be unavailable. This despite the fact he has seasoned international CB's in Brown or O'Shea available, or even the vastly experienced Neville, who has filled in at CB on occasion.

Which may explain why when MU were facing their biggest match of the season to date in the San Siro, in the absence of one CB (Vidic), Evans spent the entire 90 minutes on the pitch, despite his carrying an injury.
Whereas in the absence of one CM player (Hargreaves), Gibson spent the entire 90 minutes on the bench.
Furthermore, had MU suffered another injury in CM to Carrick or Fletcher, do you think Gibson would have been brought on, ahead of Scholes or Nani? I doubt it, somehow, myself.

We can agree on this last point as yes I'd say he is delighted he chose to get 4 caps with a team joint top of their qualifying group and with a real chance of going to the World Cup rather than settling for perhaps double the number of appearances for another team who are in reality fighting it out with San Marino for second bottom.

I'll lay you 1000/1 that NI finish above San Marino in the Group. You can keep the winnings if they don't, your stake will go to your named charity if they do.
P.S. Should you want to put your money where your mouth is, I'm quite prepared to lay big money...