Totti the Cheat (to his own players and fans)

**NeilMcD** · 06/07/2006, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Many would argue that he was player of the tournament.

That goal of the season is a Totti speciality. It's called Il Cucchiaio or in English, the spoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZLdRVVTwIg

Never said he was useless at Serie A level.

**pete** · 06/07/2006, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

That goal of the season is a Totti speciality. It's called Il Cucchiaio or in English, the spoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZLdRVVTwIg

Thats the one. Couldn't find the start of that goal.

**Sandro** · 06/07/2006, 11:31 AM

As a Lazio fan I shouldn't say that but Totti is a top class player, even if he's really playing crap at the moment, that's a fact. On the other hand, he's the living proof that every idiot can be succesful if gifted with physical skills. Basically he's regarded as a 100% pure fool with very limited intelligence (not too sure, I'd say he rather lacks personality, if anything) and no surprise he's the subject of thousands of funny jokes. Here's the one I received yesterday

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7.../LIFEISNOW.jpg

**eirebhoy** · 06/07/2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Never said he was useless at Serie A level.

What's wrong with Serie A level?

**NeilMcD** · 06/07/2006, 11:57 AM

Nothing but I think you have missed the point of my original mail. I never said that Totti was not a good player. I felt he was cheating the Italisan public and team mates by his peformances for Italy and his self indulgent attitude on the pitch when he plays for Italy. He fails to perform at that level. I think one of the reasons I brought it up was because his form for Roma has been so good over the last few years.

**eirebhoy** · 06/07/2006, 12:03 PM

Surely cheating is the wrong word? You don't play badly on purpose.

**NeilMcD** · 06/07/2006, 12:18 PM

Its through lack of effort and passion for the cause and believing in your hype so much. Trying to play killer passes all the time rather than mixing it up and knowing when is the right time to try them and when is not.

**Junior** · 06/07/2006, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Its through lack of effort and passion for the cause and believing in your hype so much. Trying to play killer passes all the time rather than mixing it up and knowing when is the right time to try them and when is not.

Neil, do you think Totti didn't care whether Italy won the Semi Final or not?

If you think he didn't care, I don't agree jst look at the full time celebrations. If you think he did care, then surely your argument is fundamentally flawed. Just because you don't like the way he played, the things he tried, doesn't mean he is cheating his public.

**NeilMcD** · 06/07/2006, 3:27 PM

People can say they care and behave before and after that they care but they are not willing to put in the effort or make sure their skills are used in teh most productive manner in order for the team to win. The obvious example of this for me would be Roy Keane. Many people could question whether he cared or not about teh Irish football team and there are some questions to be answered by him. However when he was on the pitch he always made sure his efforts were selflessly given towards the good of the team.

Totti lacked that the other night so its not as simple as to whether someone cared or not. Its caring and then making sure what you are doing is the best thing to do in order to achieve the goal you are aiming for.

**Junior** · 06/07/2006, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Totti lacked that the other night so its not as simple as to whether someone cared or not. Its caring and then making sure what you are doing is the best thing to do in order to achieve the goal you are aiming for.

He had a role to play in the team as defined by Lippi. Sure, some players roles were to keep posession at all costs, play it simple etc... but other players do not have that role within a team, as in order to create opportunities you generally have to try something different, the spectacular pass, the dribble etc... often these don't come off but if it comes off once in 10 attempts then it may be worth it. That was Totti's role.

I just don't agree with calling him a cheat to his team and the public. He played the role requested of him by his manager, he was not hauled off by Lippi, In my opinion he played very well and also Italy won, Totti contributed to this win.

You don't need to reply to this if it is just to reconfirm the same views you have already posted. I can clearly see your position I just don't agree with it in the slightest.

**NeilMcD** · 06/07/2006, 4:51 PM

How do you know what Lippis role for him was. Also we know your view .

**Junior** · 06/07/2006, 4:57 PM

The whole bleeding thread is based on opinions!!!, of course we don't know for 100% if it was Lippis role for Totti, if he is a cheat and a disgrace, if he cares whether they won or lost, if he "lacked effort or passion for the cause", if he "used his skills productively"

what sort of a response is that??

You think he was a cheat, I don't.

**pete** · 06/07/2006, 5:39 PM

World CUp diving stats

**NeilMcD** · 07/07/2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Junior

The whole bleeding thread is based on opinions!!!, of course we don't know for 100% if it was Lippis role for Totti, if he is a cheat and a disgrace, if he cares whether they won or lost, if he "lacked effort or passion for the cause", if he "used his skills productively"

what sort of a response is that??

You think he was a cheat, I don't.

There is a crucial different. You are using an opinion as way to defend or prove your opinion. What should happen in a debate that one uses facts to back up their opinion. As we know facts can be used or misused but that is how opinion is formed and expressed. However when you use opinion i.e. That was the role for Lippi to back up your point that he played well again your opinion, it lacks credibility as an argument during a debate.

**Junior** · 07/07/2006, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

There is a crucial different. You are using an opinion as way to defend or prove your opinion. What should happen in a debate that one uses facts to back up their opinion. As we know facts can be used or misused but that is how opinion is formed and expressed. However when you use opinion i.e. That was the role for Lippi to back up your point that he played well again your opinion, it lacks credibility as an argument during a debate.

Neil,

Tell me what facts you have produced to suggest Totti is a cheat to his fellow team mates or public? Show me some post match interviews from Team mates, Lippi, the Italian Public that prove your point? Prove to me that Totti 'lacked passion for the cause', that he 'believes his own hype'

I agree that all my posts on this subject are purely based on my opinion, Im also not deluding myself that its anything other than that - are you?

My opinion is based on:

A) Simple enough, I thought Totti played well.
B) I think Lippi thought he played well / carried out his job sufficiently for him not to be substituted in 120 mins of play.
C) In my humble opinion Gattuso's role was the ball winner, Pirlo's role was to sit in the the middle, be always available to receive the ball from defence, start attacks, get forward to support Totti & Toni etc..., Totti's role was in the whole between Toni and Pirlo/Caromanesi/Perrotta, link up play, creation of chances, score if possible, create something out of nothing - you get the picture.
D) I have heard nothing from the Italian squad to suggest Totti is a cheat to his team and his nation. Admittedly I don't read Italian Football message boards, so haven't gauged their fans opinions, but I would be surprised if they felt he was a cheat.

This is all in my opinion of course, but hey, you know that. I think the crucial difference between your argument and mine, is that there isn't one - both based on opinion. Now, these 'facts' that prove your opinions where are they again................................

**NeilMcD** · 07/07/2006, 1:09 PM

The fact that he kept giving the ball away nearly every time he got it led me to form an opinion. Also the fact that he was sent off for spitting before hand and has been disastrous in most of the major tournaments that he has played in. Those facts have led me to form an opinion on the player.

**Junior** · 07/07/2006, 1:17 PM

In that case I think B, C & D could all be termed as fact so.

Disastrous in major tournaments - in your opinion surely??

Fair enough Neil, we disagree. I just don't happen to think your argument has any more or less credibility than my own. I think we should leave it at that.

By the way, anyone who spits at another human is a toerag in my book, but I wasn't commenting on what type of a person he was, just what type of an influence he had on the game.

**eirebhoy** · 07/07/2006, 1:23 PM

That's all well and good Neil, we're arguing as to whether he's a cheat though.

**NeilMcD** · 07/07/2006, 1:25 PM

I think he is cheating his players and fans and country by behaving as if he is the star man and that he cares etc when the evidence on the pitch suggests something else. Its a different form of cheating as in you are not cheating the opposition but cheating your own teamates.