Shels line up Investors

[higgins]

Not to mention the way they spend the money they don't have

When did shels spend money they dont have ???
I thought we had no money to spend!!!!

Make your mind up

[TheOwl]

I would advise my fellow Shels fans to calm down and wait and see what happens regarding this news.

[pineapple stu]

Tony Maguire achieved similar 'success' at Rovers and was lucky to escape with his life.

True. Ollie'll be OK though 'cos it seems most Shels fans don't really care what happens at the club so long as they keep winning.

[Poor Student]

Its NOT cheating!

It is. It's giving clubs an unfair advatage. By the time your over expenditure has caught up with you, you've already won several titles. You may be bailed out or you may not be, but no one can take away the titles that you got in the time you were spending money you didn't have.

Players are brought in on the basis the money will be there to pay them. If its not then every player can walk away from their contract and find another club.

No, any sensible club budgets on money they know they'll have. Waterford couldn't do that last season and now look at them. It's not good enough to say "they can walk away". If you get married under the knowledge that you can walk away if the other person cheats on you, does that make it ok for them to cheat? The option only exists as a last resort.

The player enters into a contract with the club abd are well covered these days if they dont get their wages. Its the clubs job to find the wages every week otherwise they wont keep their players.

If you think it's your job to "find the wages every week" then it's easy to see how you found yourselves in this situation. You should sit down before every season, work out a realistic budget of income and base your future expenditure on that. If you have to find the wages every week you've made an awful budgeting mistake.

You lot seem to think its unfair Shels can use investors money to improve the squad. It happens everywhere!! Its part of football.. You take risks and hope it pays off or else you do a UCD aim for the minimum requirements all the time and never try anything new.

It's unfair to use money you don't have. You wouldn't have ran up a 300k tax bill and been unable to pay the wages and the programme printers if you had the liquid cash at hand. If you can't pay your creditors it's unfair to them and your fellow competitors to continue to increase your debt.

You don't just "try something new". This isn't a midlife crisis. Football is rife with clubs spending money they don't have and getting a leg over more fiscally prudent ones and it's unfair. Even if these clubs do collapse they've already claimed titles or prizes that cannot be reversed.

The fact its been working up to now for shels annoys you.

It annoys me to see any club stealing a march on another when they are running up bills they can't pay.

Does anybody know how far away the two players who have walked are or what direction they went? They started walking about a week back and we have had no reports since then.... have they reached Cork yet ? or was it Drogheda they were going to.

I only said you didn't pay your players. I don't know anything about the rest.

[Poor Student]

When did shels spend money they dont have ???
I thought we had no money to spend!!!!

Make your mind up

By running up debts in wages and tax. How are you signing players you can't pay? How are you signing players when you owe huge debts? I know they've been paid now, but to be allowed to carry on while incurring some these debts shows something is wrong. Isn't that how you spend money you don't have? By running up further and further credit?

[Dodge]

Oh and the reasons players don't walk away higgins is that there's a transfer embargo. Add in the fact that Shels pay way, way above what others do and you can see why the players stick around that little longer hoping to get their money

[pineapple stu]

PS, I think if you want to get some informed debate on the matter, you'd probably be advised to keep away from higgins' "Everything is OK" hysterics.

[higgins]

It is. It's giving clubs an unfair advatage. By the time your over expenditure has caught up with you, you've already won several titles. You may be bailed out or you may not be, but no one can take away the titles that you got in the time you were spending money you didn't have.

No, any sensible club budgets on money they know they'll have. Waterford couldn't do that last season and now look at them. It's not good enough to say "they can walk away". If you get married under the knowledge that you can walk away if the other person cheats on you, does that make it ok for them to cheat? The option only exists as a last resort.

It's unfair to use money you don't have. You wouldn't have ran up a 300k tax bill and been unable to pay the wages and the programme printers if you had the liquid cash at hand. If you can't pay your creditors it's unfair to them and your fellow competitors to continue to increase your debt.

It annoys me to see any club stealing a march on another when they are running up bills they can't pay.

Spending money we dont have
What the hell does that mean?
bills are paid !!!
wages are paid !!!

Bills are a part of everyday business.
You buy something at a cost, get the bill and then pay it off. Surely you understand this logic?

The bill with the taxman was settled. Shels were not allowed to increase it any further or they would be wound up! How much more in the way of punishment did you want? As a result the bill was cleared. Lots of EL clubs are in debt to the taxman, are they all cheating?

Thats the way things work.
You owe someone money, you get a bill and you pay the money ?
Every club does this!!
Are you serious that you think every club with debts are cheating

When have Shels ever failed to pay their bills ???

Things dont always run as smoothly as you might think in your ideal business world and cash flow can be a major problem but I wouldnt exactly call this cheating.

Does anybody know shels debts or do you all assume its massive and base your arguments on that?

As for me thinking nothing is wrong at shels

Just because I post here trying to add in some facts to your mad ideas does not mean I think nothing is wrong at shels.

[higgins]

Oh and the reasons players don't walk away higgins is that there's a transfer embargo. Add in the fact that Shels pay way, way above what others do and you can see why the players stick around that little longer hoping to get their money

I thought two players walked???

[Poor Student]

Spending money we dont have
What the hell does that mean?
bills are paid !!!
wages are paid !!!

You maintain a wage bill that seems to be beyond your capabilities. You incur further debt by continuing to have such a big squad. You don't seem to really have money to pay them on your current income.

Bills are a part of everyday business.
You buy something at a cost, get the bill and then pay it off. Surely you understand this logic?

Bills are one thing, wages are another. If you cannot pay the wages on time there is something wrong. Also, above all, the taxman's bills are the ones you don't let yourself get behind on.

The bill with the taxman was settled. Shels were not allowed to increase it any further or they would be wound up! How much more in the way of punishment did you want? As a result the bill was cleared. Lots of EL clubs are in debt to the taxman, are they all cheating?

I can't speak for other clubs but you had a winding up order issued in the national newspapers. You talk about all debt as if it is the same. There's healthy debt and unhealthy debt. Running up a large debt with the taxman and only paying it after you get the winding up order is unhealthy debt.

Thats the way things work.
You owe someone money, you get a bill and you pay the money ?
Every club does this!!
Are you serious that you think every club with debts are cheating

This is just specious arguing, as I said, you can't compare all manner of debt.

When have Shels ever failed to pay their bills ???

The time they got their winding up order from the taxman? The time they couldn't get a programme out for the Bohs game because they owed the printers money? The time you couldn't pay the players wages on time?

Things dont always run as smoothly as you might think in your ideal business world and cash flow can be a major problem but I wouldnt exactly call this cheating.

If you can't budget properly and incur a long term debt you can't guarantee you can pay off then you are cheating.

Does anybody know shels debts or do you all assume its massive and base your arguments on that?

I'm basing it on the fact you need bridging loans to pay your tax debts, you failed to pay the players on time, you even seemed to fail to pay the programme printers. There's obviously something wrong.

Higgins, you're obviously not a fan of fiscal prudence. You advocate splashing cash now and worrying about it later. Put Peter Ridsdale into Google and have a read about "living the dream" and so on.

[higgins]

You maintain a wage bill that seems to be beyond your capabilities. You incur further debt by continuing to have such a big squad. You don't seem to really have money to pay them on your current income.

Considering Shels have paid the wages for as long as I can remember I would say it seems to indicate it is within our capabilities.
I think it far too much myself but you cant say we don’t pay the wages when there is nothing to back it up other then friends of friends of friends who know a player. It wouldnt come as a major shock if one day Shels cant pay the high wages but calm down until you see players leave.

Bills are one thing, wages are another. If you cannot pay the wages on time there is something wrong. Also, above all, the taxman's bills are the ones you don't let yourself get behind on.

Lots of EL clubs owe the taxman money. It was fairly common up until a year or two before they put more control on it. Shels made a bad call on not keeping up their payments and as a result their bluff was called but again that bill WAS PAID.

I can't speak for other clubs but you had a winding up order issued in the national newspapers. You talk about all debt as if it is the same. There's healthy debt and unhealthy debt. Running up a large debt with the taxman and only paying it after you get the winding up order is unhealthy debt.

The winding up order came as a shock to most EL fans I would expect and wouldn’t have happened a few years back.
That bill was PAID!!

The time they got their winding up order from the taxman? The time they couldn't get a programme out for the Bohs game because they owed the printers money? The time you couldn't pay the players wages on time?

Shels always pay the money they owe to people but as I said they aim high and cash flow can be a problem at times.
Printers and taxmen will get their money in FULL. Its not cheating until you don’t pay.. If an EL club goes to the bank for a loan they wont all get the same amount, different clubs have different levels of debt and different capabilities of paying that debt.

If I was the owner of a club I would always try to have money there for every bill and pay on time but it’s a little different in the real world and sometimes things don’t go to plan.

If you can't budget properly and incur a long term debt you can't guarantee you can pay off then you are cheating.

ALL BILLS WERE PAID!!!!!!!!!!!
Its not cheating

I'm basing it on the fact you need bridging loans to pay your tax debts, you failed to pay the players on time, you even seemed to fail to pay the programme printers. There's obviously something wrong.

Shels have had plenty of loans in the past to pay bills. Like any other debts loans will be paid off over time and everyone gets their money!!

Higgins, you're obviously not a fan of fiscal prudence. You advocate splashing cash now and worrying about it later. Put Peter Ridsdale into Google and have a read about "living the dream" and so on.

That’s not true.
If it was me there I wouldnt spend anything now if I didn’t know where the money was coming from but Ollies track record of paying his debts is fairly impressive.

What bills are not paid by the way or are you just making it up?

[Poor Student]

What bills are not paid by the way or are you just making it up?

Higgins I see where you're going with this one. Yes, now all the bills have been paid, but it seems with great difficulty. The national media has confirmed you're getting advance payments on the sale of Tolka, it's the only way you seem able to pay those bills. Aside from the sale of your capital asset you don't seem to be able to pay the bills. That is fiscal suicide as the capital asset will eventually be gone. You don't seem to even be able to transfer that capital asset into liquid cash. Ok, you may be able to get in investment and you may be able to secure a new home and sell Tolka off fully but these are ifs and buts and you have budgeting and spent on these being absolute conditions. You can't run a football club like that, it's reckless.

[higgins]

Higgins I see where you're going with this one. Yes, now all the bills have been paid, but it seems with great difficulty. The national media has confirmed you're getting advance payments on the sale of Tolka, it's the only way you seem able to pay those bills. Aside from the sale of your capital asset you don't seem to be able to pay the bills. That is fiscal suicide as the capital asset will eventually be gone. You don't seem to even be able to transfer that capital asset into liquid cash. Ok, you may be able to get in investment and you may be able to secure a new home and sell Tolka off fully but these are ifs and buts and you have budgeting and spent on these being absolute conditions. You can't run a football club like that, it's reckless.

great difficulty is correct!!

I dont for one second think taking bridging loans on the sale of Tolka Park to be doing good business. I have tried to add some facts into the debate but I have never suggested this was a great way to run a football club. Its worrying, very worrying but its not cheating. Cheating would you not paying the massive debts you built up.

I think all clubs should be able to carry on until it comes to the time where they cant manage their debts. When that day happens there should be laws in place to punish the clubs but friends of friends saying people have not got their money and two players walked does not really amount to cheating.

Players are sold all the time or released from contracts when the club can no longer afford their wages and if that day comes soon then well and good but you are jumping the gun a small bit with some of the stories being posted.

Just for the record I dont agree with a lot of the ways Shels run their affairs but its easy for me to say that. I couldnt handle the pressure thats for sure but I will defend those who run the club when I know some of whats posted on here to be a complete twisted version of the truth.

[aido1895]

Oh and the reasons players don't walk away higgins is that there's a transfer embargo. Add in the fact that Shels pay way, way above what others do and you can see why the players stick around that little longer hoping to get their money

Is that a fact Dodge ? Id love to see your proof because I for one know of a certain team offering players considerably more money than Shels .

[Dodge]

I didn't say all others aido but in general most clubs could not pay the wages shels do

[Anto McC]

True. Ollie'll be OK though 'cos it seems most Shels fans don't really care what happens at the club so long as they keep winning.

Are you suggesting we murder Ollie if things go belly up?

[pineapple stu]

Well, seeing as you ask...yes.

I'll give you a hand if you want.

[Anto McC]

Nah you're alright,it's against my religion

[Dr.Nightdub]

Higgins, put it like this: Shels have sold off their car to pay for petrol. Does that make it any clearer to you?

The cheating part arises from outbidding your rivals for players when you haven't got the money to pay up on the salaries with which you enticed them. It works like this:

Act 1
Manager of Nightdub Athletic: We'll pay you €800 a week.
Player X: Oooh I like the sound of that.
Ollie: We'll pay you €1500 a week.
Player X: Oooh I like the sound of that even better.
Audience: Behind you! ("Man on!" doesn't really hack it in pantomine terms) He hasn't got €1500 a week to pay you!
Ollie: Oh yes I have!
Audience: Oh no he hasn't!

Player X signs for Shels anyway. Six months later, they're ahead of Nightdub Athletic in the chase for the League title and Player X is their top goal scorer.

Act 2
Player X: Ollie, you owe me wages.
Ollie: The taxman's taken all my dough...(this bit can work as a musical interlude if you're a Kinks fan)...here's a nice shiny medal instead.

That's cheating. It's cheating the player and it's cheating the competition.

[pineapple stu]

Incidentally, how much have Pat's lost in the last two years...?