Lawro says Forget It!

[thejollyrodger]

one thing he hit the nail on the head was about ireland fire... we used to be all fired up .. now we couldnt give a rats ass... the last qualification campagin is just one such example

[Stuttgart88]

Have to Disagree. Switzerland are an excellent young side who i remember rightly did very well at the European U-21 championships a few years ago. Isreal you forget to mention also got Draws in Switzerland and Fance so again a decent side. In my post earlier i said that hindsight will hopefully prove me right but it's only my own opininon.

Yes, Switzerland won the U21s a few years back I think. I have to say that having seen Switzerland a few times in our campaign, for the most part I thought they looked ordinary. They only just beat Cyprus at home and only just beat Faroes away for example.

But I watched most of the first half of Switzerland vs Italy last night. I was flicking between that and France vs Denmark although the wife came back in at 9am and it was Big ****ing Brother from then on.

I thought the Swiss looked like a very cohesive, tall, athletic team that's very well balanced and is quite a tidy unit. I wouldn't go as far as saying they're "excellent" but they are very decent. I thought they were poor in Euro 2004, embarassingly for us, but I expect them to make the last 16 this time.

To digress, I think that France are beginning to look the part.

[NeilMcD]

Lads I still have not seen one quote from Lawrenson on this issue.

[wws]

Let it go man

Let it go

[NeilMcD]

Let what go. We have a 5 page thread on something we dont even know Mark Lawrenson has said or not. Before I comment on what he said, I would just like to know what he actually said.

[CraftyToePoke]

I don't really know, to be honest. I'd say "concerned" - yes, but "despairing" - no,you?

id go along with 'concerned' as the result of that game will not live long in the memory, wheather we had won, drawn or lost it, but id definately say Staunton will have been disappointed with the efforts expended by some of his key men, again, it goes back to our squad size, there are a number of guys who genuinelly dont have to fear for their place in the 11, and v chile i believe this was apparent, and from Stans expression whenever the camera panned to him, any illusions he may have had that they would always give their all for him, will have disappeared.

id say he intended to play Dixon at some point, but was unable to due to the course the game had taken, this again stems directly from the efforts of the starting 11.

so, although it wont be important long term, its certainly something he will have learned about his players, like you say, maybe the work done in portugal was the real important part.lets hope so.

Reid's re-emergence this season directly links to an extended run in the middle of the park at blackburn, to ignore this at a time when our options there are limited in the middle would be a big error, particularly when you take into account the performances of O'Shea and Miller.

[Stuttgart88]

Whether he actually said it or not isn't important to me anymore, it's whether the premise is true that's worth debating. Somewhere in among the 5 pages of "oh yes he did, oh no he didn't" this issue was actually addressed.

[NeilMcD]

Of course its not true, to say we are never going to qualify goes down with comments like everything that is going to be invented already has been invented which was uttered in the early part of the 20th century. Or Bill Gates saying that there is only going to be a need for about 2 computers in the world.

You can never say never. We have a chance over the next capaign of qualifying no more no less. We should have qualified for Germany with more passion and more get up and go and and more attacking mindset.

[as_i_say]

thats why the key to qualifying is to have ian harte on the team.

[Jerry The Saint]

Let what go. We have a 5 page thread on something we dont even know Mark Lawrenson has said or not. Before I comment on what he said, I would just like to know what he actually said.

Lawro Say RELAX.

[Paddy Garcia]

[QUOTE=NeilMcD] Or Bill Gates saying that there is only going to be a need for about 2 computers in the world.[QUOTE]

Don't think that quote was Bill Gates - more like the old Chief Exec of IBM!


......well as Stuttgart88 has suggested, it's not as if this thread has not already drifted from the germane topic: whether Lawro is correct as opposed to who he supports the most.

[Paddy Garcia]

I think he has a very fair point. However I feel it has more to do with the habit of winning (& I guess therefore talent though I was reluctant to admit this). There is no doubt that in past qualifying campaigners we have fielded more players used to winning than the present crop. Off the top of my head players (in past qualifying campaigns) very used to going out on a field & winning included:

Liverpool, perennial double & title winners: Lawrenson, Houghton, Aldridge, Staunton, Whelan, Beglin,

Man U - early players were contenders later perennial double & title winners: McGrath, Stapleton, Moran, Irwin, Keane

Aston Villa: Contenders & Cup Winners: McGrath, Townend, Houghton, Staunton.

Celtic: League & Cup Winners: Bonner, McCarthy & Morris

Everton: League & European Cup Winners: Sheedy

..even Kelly & Harte at Leeds for a while in this period. And we could add Brady & O'Leary to that list of winning clubs.

OK - some of the above are doubled up - but the point is the spine & sometimes much more of the Irish team were at top English/Scottish clubs, typically winning titles & cups galore.

On this thread I have read about the merits of trying players like Alan Quinn, Paddy McCarthy & others to see if they can do a job for us. Elsewhere we are suggesting that EL players are as good as what we have in England. If we use the "success criteria" above we simply don't match up today: This season - Duff (& only partial this season) & Finnan, with O'Shea there or thereabouts. And McGeady hopefully to step up. Worse a lot fighting relegation or seeking promotion. Some are already declaring Doyle as a saviour - & it's hardly fair to him (though hope it is true).

Frankly this is a million miles a way from the talent we had available in the past.

How many Irish players will be regulars in the top 3 English teams next year ? We will be lucky if there is 2 in total - in successful qualification campaigns in the past we could have had up to 3 in one team alone & quite a few others in the pack behind.

EG:
06/07
poss none at Chelsea
poss none at Man U - though maybe 1
probably 1 at Liverpool

...so not many in green these days with the winning habit. And for this reason in the short term I think Lawro may have a point.

[Irish_Praha]

I think he has a very fair point. However I feel it has more to do with the habit of winning (& I guess therefore talent though I was reluctant to admit this). There is no doubt that in past qualifying campaigners we have fielded more players used to winning than the present crop. Off the top of my head players (in past qualifying campaigns) very used to going out on a field & winning included:

Liverpool, perennial double & title winners: Lawrenson, Houghton, Aldridge, Staunton, Whelan, Beglin,

Man U - early players were contenders later perennial double & title winners: McGrath, Stapleton, Moran, Irwin, Keane

Aston Villa: Contenders & Cup Winners: McGrath, Townend, Houghton, Staunton.

Celtic: League & Cup Winners: Bonner, McCarthy & Morris

Everton: League & European Cup Winners: Sheedy

..even Kelly & Harte at Leeds for a while in this period. And we could add Brady & O'Leary to that list of winning clubs.

OK - some of the above are doubled up - but the point is the spine & sometimes much more of the Irish team were at top English/Scottish clubs, typically winning titles & cups galore.

On this thread I have read about the merits of trying players like Alan Quinn, Paddy McCarthy & others to see if they can do a job for us. Elsewhere we are suggesting that EL players are as good as what we have in England. If we use the "success criteria" above we simply don't match up today: This season - Duff (& only partial this season) & Finnan, with O'Shea there or thereabouts. And McGeady hopefully to step up. Worse a lot fighting relegation or seeking promotion. Some are already declaring Doyle as a saviour - & it's hardly fair to him (though hope it is true).

Frankly this is a million miles a way from the talent we had available in the past.

How many Irish players will be regulars in the top 3 English teams next year ? We will be lucky if there is 2 in total - in successful qualification campaigns in the past we could have had up to 3 in one team alone & quite a few others in the pack behind.

EG:
06/07
poss none at Chelsea
poss none at Man U - though maybe 1
probably 1 at Liverpool

...so not many in green these days with the winning habit. And for this reason in the short term I think Lawro may have a point.

I agree with the point that a winning attitude goes a long way to winning games, which is what you need to qualify. However, the vast majority of the players we had that qualified for the last WC were not part of winning teams either. I'm no big McCarthy fan but somehow he instilled a certain amount of pride into the team when playing for Ireland, which was lacking in the last two campaigns. I know he was in charge for the start of one of those but it all went a bit flat due to the fallout from Saipan Gate. All we can hope is that Staunton can somehow work the same magic. Time will tell.

BTW here is the WC 2002 squad and as afar as i can remember no major player used in the qualifiers is missing due to injury. I got it from http://www.travelnotes.org/Football/...n/Teams/E3.htm
and no I didnt change ManU for "sent home in disgrace"

Goalkeepers:

1 Shay Given (Newcastle United)
16 Dean Kiely (Charlton Athletic)
23 Alan Kelly (Blackburn Rovers)

Defence:

2 Steve Finnan (Fulham)
3 Ian Harte (Leeds United)
4 Kenny Cunningham (Wimbledon)
5 Steve Staunton (Aston Villa)
14 Gary Breen (Coventry City)
15 Richard Dunne (Manchester City)
18 Gary Kelly (Leeds United)
20 Andrew O'Brien (Newcastle United)

Midfield:

6 Roy Keane (Sent home in disgrace)
7 Jason McAteer (Sunderland)
8 Matt Holland (Ipswich Town)
11 Kevin Kilbane (Sunderland)
12 Mark Kinsella (Charlton Athletic)
21 Stephen Reid (Millwall)
22 Lee Carsley (Everton)

Forwards:

9 Damien Duff (Blackburn Rovers)
10 Robbie Keane (Leeds United)
13 David Connolly (Wimbledon)
17 Niall Quinn (Sunderland)
19 Clinton Morrison (Crystal Palace)

[Qwerty]

Sure it's nice to have players from clubs wining titles but how many English players play for Chelski or Arsenal? The Premiership has changed a great deal in the past 10 years. Remember who was Leeds top scorer when they won the Premiership? Would Leeds win the title with a team like that today or would they have a better chance at relegation?

The standard of football has improved enormously. The bottom line is that our first 11 is usually an all-Premiership team and in the past this was not always the case, you could argue we have never had so much depth as now even if we don't have quite as many really top class players.

We have the players to compete, we just need a management team to do the business.

BTW - I see nothing wrong with Lawro using 'We' to refer to England, let's grow up lads.

[beautifulrock]

Whats Lawro using "we" got to do with growing up????

[brine3]

As for Lawro referring to England as "we", I never heard him do it myself, but even if he did, so what?

It is possible for somebody to feel an attachment to two countries at the same time. Especially if your family is from the one country and you grew up in another. It's easy enough for an Irish person in Ireland to criticise somebody for doing this, as they've never stood in Lawro's shoes. He's as Irish as smoked salmon and as English as Yorkshire pudding, that's just the way his background is. You can be both at the same time.

Lay off the man. He chose to play for Ireland in the pre-Charlton days when nobody was begging people to declare.

[Fergie's Son]

As for Lawro referring to England as "we", I never heard him do it myself, but even if he did, so what?

It is possible for somebody to feel an attachment to two countries at the same time. Especially if your family is from the one country and you grew up in another. It's easy enough for an Irish person in Ireland to criticise somebody for doing this, as they've never stood in Lawro's shoes. He's as Irish as smoked salmon and as English as Yorkshire pudding, that's just the way his background is. You can be both at the same time.

Lay off the man. He chose to play for Ireland in the pre-Charlton days when nobody was begging people to declare.

Great post. Thank you.

[Reality Bites]

Back to the topic of the thread, we are back down to earth as a footballing nation i.e pre-italia 90 days, its quiet clear that we have very little talent at the moment and will have to accept that it will be unlikely that we will qualify for the Euros in 2008, and as the world cup comes around lets face it Englands Squad outshines us everywhere except Goalkeeper..we would have always argued that we had three or four players superior in various positions now its just down to the goalkeeper!!!
Some might argue we had a golden generation in mid to late 80's culminating in euro 88 and Italia 90, lets face it WC2002 was down to Roy Keanes preformance in qualifers, end of Storey.. So as a football nation the good times may not come around in the near future so Lawro is not far of the mark in my opinion..

[shakermaker1982]

I think Finnan, Duff and Robbie Keane would walk into the England team right now no problem. Throw in Given and you have 4.

[Stuttgart88]

It kind of poses the question: what can be done to maximise the chances of another golden generation occurring?.

There are encouraging signs that at all levels under 20 we have very good players coming through, but whether these guys progress or not is largely out of the FAI's hands.

It's no good just sitting back and seeing whether they make it or not while spending most of our time watching Man United on telly and then once a year bemoaning the lack of real quality coming through.

In my opinion we've got to grab the bull by the horns and leave as little as possible to luck. You could debate this issue until the cows come home I suppose but it's pretty obvious to me that a thriving domestic league is at least one requisite, one that can actually offer our better footballers a good career as well as a competitive & technically proficient environment in front of crowds and stadia that actually make it something for young players to aspire to. By and large, I think the Genesis II and the recent related changes that have been announced will take the league this direction, but I know it's not without controversy.

Maybe I'm being totally naive but I think that there is sufficient interest from the public in attending ALL sports as long as the standard is sufficiently high.