FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

**Jerry The Saint** · 30/05/2006, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Difference is when they got promoted their crowds increased. Yours didnt despite the fact that their ground is further from the town. Same with CHF zero increase in crowds since they went up. Like I said no point being there then.

KOH

Shamrock attendances in the Premier were no bigger than their First Division crowds. Might as well leave them where they are so.

**dcfcsteve** · 30/05/2006, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Should point that that's a no-brainer. No-body's saying we - or any other club - don't want to improve. Just that we shouldn't be punished for improving at a different rate to others.

This is the cruz here PS. Given the limited crowds/potential etc of UCD, you'll always be moving at a slower rate than other Premier Division clubs (bar Dublin City), and arguably slower than any other clubs in the league full-stop.

To use the aul cliche - the league will only be as strong as its weakest team.
Our league is currently very weak on every aspect. Experience has shown that most teams will not improve their off-the-pitch set-up to any significant degree without some form of compulsion/incentive to do so. Hence why there are ongoing plans to address this - like Licensing.

This will be an ongoing process. For example, currently you need 1,500 seats for a premier stadium. The new proposal from the FAI now mandates 3,000. In a couple of years it will most probably rise to 4,000 or 5,000. It may go even higher after that.

If a team is not not keeping up with everyone else then it is clear that only one of 2 things can happen :

1) The rules punish you for this
Your percieved saviour of licensing will do this to you sooner or later through off-the-pitch criteria such as the number of seats in your stadium.

2) The rules themselves are deliberately pegged at a level that doesnt punish the likes of Dublin City and UCD - hence holding the league as a whole back.
If we have to demand a lower than desired rate of improvements to ensure that the weakest clubs don't get relegated for their infrastructure, then it is to be fully expected that the rest of the league will therefore be held-back by this decision.

This is the cruz of the situation PS. The writing appears to be on the wall - at some point or other small clubs like UCD and Dublin City will fall-foul of the ambitions of the rest of the league. This is purely because these small clubs does not have the finances or support base to have anything beyond the most basic of facilities.

Your club can pretend that this won't be the case, and cling-on desperately and try to scupper this inevitability. Or it can read what's written on the wall and get on with keeping up with everyone else. The fact that you are proposing to build a new stadium with only 1,500 seats - the current bare minimum - suggests that the will is not there to keep-up. If your stadium plans had any forsight whatsoever, a higher number of seats would've been included now for the inevitable increase in the minimum requirement that will eventually happen. If you always implement the bare minimum then you will be holding the league as a whole back. And sooner or later you will be punished for this. The same end result as you fear is being proposed in the current FAI proposal.

The writing is on the wall......

**micls** · 30/05/2006, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by John83

It'll be a cold day in hell before anyone in this league gets 10,000 to a league game, much less 24,000.

City and Derry last season would have gotten closer to the second figure if there had been room.

I know this was a once off and title decider but it shows people will turn out if its exciting enough. There were a good few converts from that game id say

**monutdfc** · 30/05/2006, 11:25 AM

When we were first promoted under Billy Bagster we were competitive in the premier and our crowds increased. Last time we were promoted we were 10 game sin before we got our first win, by which time crowds had fallen off. Longford Town were competitive when they got promoted and had a good cup run which helps massively in retaining support. In terms of population, catchment area and dominance of the gaa there are a lot of comparisons between Longford and Monaghan. Put it like this, if Stephen Kenny had've been appointed Monaghan United manager things could have been whole lot different. I have huge admiration for Longford Town and they give us something to aspire to.
(BTW, 2 more Monaghan United schoolboys selected for an internatinal squad this week, another former schoolboy given a professional contract in the UK and another former senior player in the Ireland squad last week. You're right, we shouldn't exist.)

**higgins** · 30/05/2006, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

monutdfc- the criteria apply for only one year, then it's back to good old fashioned promotion and relegation. Except this time they're going to enforce licensing.

Which if they'd taken seriously the first time round would have avoided the need for this arbitrary crap for next year.

Now that is a good post..

Things will be back to normal one year on and if the small changes don't bring about a change in attitude to the now non EL fan then you can go back to the premiership clash of Dublin City v UCD with the other 82 people.

A whole lot of crap over something that's not going to be around in two years time.

They are trying to get clubs with enough fans and enough decent players that the atmosphere will be decent for those who turn up and maybe they may come back.

There is no point having great marketing and pumping money into the product if the guy who has never been to a EL game before decides to get up off his arse and brings the kids down to Dalymount to be faced with 80 other people who can shout around the ground to each other as the game goes on ??

I'll say it again as UCD and Dublin City fans seem to ignore this�

THE FAI ARE TRYING TO CHANGE THE ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE EL !!

They will have a much better chance of kick starting something if they have clubs who are willing to progress and who can potentially bring big numbers to games.

Your not looking at this with the EL in mind.

If it fails and your as well run as you all think then you will be back up soon enough as you are all aiming for the minimum standards set out in the Club Licence.
There you go no problem!!! Drama over �

Instead of playing in front of 83 to Kildare you can play in front of 83 to Dublin City.

**wws** · 30/05/2006, 11:32 AM

so every game is a title play off?!
The air of unreality surrounding attendances - their significance in terms of running costs is astounding on this board.

Everyone lives in a dreamworld of fantasy attendances - or 'if only ucd and dublin werent there' - than we'd have a few thousand at EVERY game. Bullsh�t

**NY Hoop** · 30/05/2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by monutdfc

When we were first promoted under Billy Bagster we were competitive in the premier and our crowds increased. Last time we were promoted we were 10 game sin before we got our first win, by which time crowds had fallen off. Longford Town were competitive when they got promoted and had a good cup run which helps massively in retaining support. In terms of population, catchment area and dominance of the gaa there are a lot of comparisons between Longford and Monaghan. Put it like this, if Stephen Kenny had've been appointed Monaghan United manager things could have been whole lot different. I have huge admiration for Longford Town and they give us something to aspire to.
(BTW, 2 more Monaghan United schoolboys selected for an internatinal squad this week, another former schoolboy given a professional contract in the UK and another former senior player in the Ireland squad last week. You're right, we shouldn't exist.)

Well we'll have to disagree cos I was there in 93 and it was a bad crowd. I never said you should'nt exist just that you'd be better served if you went back to junior ball. Junior clubs regularly have players selected for Ireland.

KOH

**Mr A** · 30/05/2006, 11:33 AM

This will be an ongoing process. For example, currently you need 1,500 seats for a premier stadium. The new proposal from the FAI now mandates 3,000. In a couple of years it will most probably rise to 4,000 or 5,000. It may go even higher after that.

I don't think it does Steve. It says-

Considerations here to include Safe-holding (min. 3,000)Unencumbered access – Ownership / long term lessee / no. covered seats / plans re infrastructure development etc

Which seems to say that while having covered seating is desirable, it's not an actual requirement.

**Poor Student** · 30/05/2006, 11:33 AM

Dcfcsteve, I emphasise again, pragmatism and reality must be adopted. Just because an arbitrary number of 1,500 seats or 3,000 is set, that does not mean one has no ambition if they realise that in itself is more than the club needs. The SPL introduced minimum seating numbers which were too large for the reality of clubs. Falkirk fell victim to this on a couple of occasions and eventually the number had to be reduced to allow a proper flow of relegation and promotion to take place. Inverness Caledonian Thistle, a club who would not have made it under the old rules, are now one of the most progressive and well run clubs in the SPL. If we have the sense of reality to know all we need is 1,500 I consider that a good thing. No need to build a Colesseum if no one will come. The fact that we will build a 1,500 seater does not hold Derry back. You're free to do as you please (well if you can sort out the council stuff).

**Poor Student** · 30/05/2006, 11:40 AM

Higgins, you're living in a dream world, a reckless one at that. You'll arbitrarily relegate clubs for the craic and have a wee look at what happens, and if nothing does, sure why not, no harm done. Wrong. These changes are another in a long line of querks and quick fixes implemented by the authorities that have done nothing for the game as vividly pointed out by wws. You think someone may have randomly turned up to Dub City v UCD and been put off eL for life? Come on. There are more than enough big games in the Premier Division not to turn someone off if they're that fickle.

**WeAreRovers** · 30/05/2006, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by wws

:
You seem to imply that 800 in Kildare or 300 at Castlebar is some sort of financial windfall. Its not - its peanuts in the general scheme of things. Eircom League clubs do NOT meet their costs via attendances - and LETS FACE REALITY HERE -

So the 8 grand that Rovers fans put into the coffers of Kildare County is peanuts? It's precisely because of the perillous nature of eL club's finances that crowds matter.

Relatively large attendances help pay the bills and, shock, horror, actually convey the message that something worthwhile is going on ie. a football match that people might want to attend. It's called marketing.

Nobody can seriously say that the "crowd" at the DC/UCD game was not an embarrassment to Irish football. This has to stop and this document is a step in the right direction.

I agree about the 10-team format and especially with Jerry the Saint's point about the constant "give it a lash and see what happens" mentality that gave us summer football, 10 team/12 team leagues etc.

The bottom line is that Dermot Keely described the 1st division as a "wilderness" but as someone pointed out on our board, wherever DC play is a wilderness.

KOH

**higgins** · 30/05/2006, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Poor Student

Higgins, you're living in a dream world, a reckless one at that. You'll arbitrarily relegate clubs for the craic and have a wee look at what happens, and if nothing does, sure why not, no harm done. Wrong. These changes are another in a long line of querks and quick fixes implemented by the authorities that have done nothing for the game as vividly pointed out by wws. You think someone may have randomly turned up to Dub City v UCD and been put off eL for life? Come on. There are more than enough big games in the Premier Division not to turn someone off if they're that fickle.

For life ? NO
For years yes ..

Word of mouth is a big factor in Ireland. It can make or break this idea.
If you were faced with a crowd of 83 at your first EL game what would you think ?

You yet again fail to see how it look on the outside to the non EL fan.

Ive brought many to Tolka with crowds over a 1000 and still got the 'there's not many here' remarks.
If you don�t think crowds at games make it a better occasion its not surprising you�re a UCD fan.

As for the above comment that 1,500 is enough for your needs ???
Do you not think the fact the current ground in Belfield is a complete and utter sh!thole that it may have some reason why your crowds are so low?
Do you not think with a better ground you may aim for over 1,500 seats?

I think the minimum requirement of 1,500 seats is far too low. Anyone who comes to an EL premier league game in the year 2006 should at the very least expect to sit down and watch the game in some sort of comfort.

You honestly telling us 1,500 is all you need in this new ground?

Even if your average is well under 1,500 you may very well get a crowd of 2,000 at some stage and to have 500 forced to stand it only serves to back up the opinion that the grounds in the EL are rubbish.

You lot don�t seem to have any ambition.
Calling it pragmatism is foolish.

Your holding the league back

Ideally I would like the FAI to implement the Club Licence in full and rid the premier of clubs like UCD by requirement issues but I'm happy to go along with the round about way it has the same happy ending.

**wws** · 30/05/2006, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

So the 8 grand that Rovers fans put into the coffers of Kildare County is peanuts? It's precisely because of the perillous nature of eL club's finances that crowds matter.

Relatively large attendances help pay the bills and, shock, horror, actually convey the message that something worthwhile is going on ie. a football match that people might want to attend. It's called marketing.

Nobody can seriously say that the "crowd" at the DC/UCD game was not an embarrassment to Irish football. This has to stop and this document is a step in the right direction.

I agree about the 10-team format and especially with Jerry the Saint's point about the constant "give it a lash and see what happens" mentality that gave us summer football, 10 team/12 team leagues etc.

The bottom line is that Dermot Keely described the 1st division as a "wilderness" but as someone pointed out on our board, wherever DC play is a wilderness.

KOH

yes it is peanuts and not a reason to relegate a club. Clubs with twice and three and four times that figure at the gate DO NOT meet current running costs�! and that is a FACT

The idea that the crowd, or lack of at Dublin City - UCD is an impediment to the progress of any club in the first division (or prem) is wrong. Totally wrong. The crowds are not significant enough to warrant special weightings and favouritism. Even the crowds you quote wouldn't impress any unsold non el attender - in fact they're equally as off putting to a new customer bred on the real premiership were boros crowds are seen as "embaressing" to tv fed fans - what hope 800/900 at a poxy el game impressing them. It is called marketing, and acknowledging the horrifically low base is the first step to trying to incrementally improve it.

People will not be flocking to el games based on these proposals. Therefore you have to question what merit they have at all especially when they deliberately circumvent footballing merit - this would be a bigger killer for the league's credibility LONG TERM than having UCD or Dublin in.

**WeAreRovers** · 30/05/2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by wws

The idea that the crowd, or lack of at Dublin City - UCD is an impediment to the progress of any club in the first division (or prem) is wrong. Totally wrong.

Well if you thing that a crowd of less than 100 people at a derby game in the capital city in the country's top tier of football isn't an impediment to what people are trying to do for their clubs and the league then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

KOH

**pineapple stu** · 30/05/2006, 12:33 PM

Looks like we were just getting some intelligent debate going when higgins (who is clearly either an idiot/a WUM/both, so I'm not even going to waste time replying to his "issues") and dcfcsteve (who is just plain deluded) pipe up. Rather unfortunate timing, to be honest.