FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

**pineapple stu** · 26/05/2006, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I still can't get this. We set criteria, we judge clubs on this criteria and we establish the division based on this and then what? We have 12 super clubs?

Does it give any indication of the how? Is the how just a marketing plan?

Forget who is in or out for now, anyone who has seen this explain the how please.

Everyone's rated out of 1000 points. You can score up to 300 points (decreasing in increments of 10 down to 90 points) for how you've done in the last five years. This is rated by a formula which gives marks for Premier Division placing, League Cup performance and FAI Cup performance. You can score a further 200 points for this year's league placing, and a minimum of 60. There's also marks for European results in recent years.

So that's the on-field stuff. There's then marks - 100 or 150 each - for how your UEFA Licencing went in the past couple of years, whether you have a ground with 3000 official safe capacity, what geographic location you're in and the dilution of that area and your general business plan for progress, which would include attendances for the past two years and other such details. I don't know how marks would be allocated there.

You can see that on-field is a matter of fact, while the rest is hugely subjective. What it means is that this season is largely irrelevant - there just aren't the marks going for this year to change anything in any meaningful way.

The top 12 clubs who get an A Licence make up the Super-Duper league.

I was told that the plan is for promotion and relegation to be based on a comparison of top of the First versus bottom of the Premier, with the club getting more points to enter the Premier. This, by definition, would be the Premier club as that's the reason they're in the Premier in the first place, and you're going to stagnate in the First and not in the Premier. So it'd be very hard to gain promotion from the First.

Danny posted an article from the Indo today on this thread which gives a fairly good overview.

**sullanefc** · 26/05/2006, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I haven't ignored your calls - I've answered them very clearly above !

Licensing can achieve broadly the same result, but over a dramatically longer time scale. You may think that Irish football has 10 years to play around with creeping towards exactly the same point that this new FAI proposal would get it to anyway, but I don't. Why delay the ineviatble ??

Licensing will not save UCD either. Under increasingly stringent criteria, there will come a time when UCD will inevitably fall foul of it, and find themslves removed form the premiership on off-the-pitch criteria. As I mentioned - you're already complaining about the increase in seat requirement from 1,500 to 3,000. As if 3,000 seats should ever be even close to acceptable in our Premier Division !! What about when the requirement gets raised to 4,000 seats ? Then 5,000 ? Then higher still ? Are you honestly telling me that UCD will be able to maintain the same pace in meeting increases in the height of the Licensing bar as much bigger clubs will be ? If not, then you'll inevitably fall foul of them at some stage. At which stage you'll be removed from the Premier for failing to meet off-the-field criteria. Why are you holding faith in licensing when the end result is almost certain to be the same, and every other club will have been held-back in the meantime ?

Deja-vu

**Jerry The Saint** · 26/05/2006, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

This will make the league better and I cannot for a minute understand how anybody with the league at heart doesnt want this to happen.

And I cannot understand how anybody with the league at heart thinks it's acceptable that the Premier Division will consist of teams arbitrarily chosen by a panel of individuals appointed by John Delaney:

They will have to go through a complicated criteria process to determine who will make the cut and this will be overseen by an Independent Assessment Group (IAG) chaired by former UEFA vice-president Des Casey.

The IAG also include former Irish Sports Council chairman Pat O'Neill, Dublin City manager John Fitzgerald, former international Niall Quinn and FAI Project Manager Helen Raftery.

Let's be realistic, there's enough vagueness in the criteria for us all to know that this is exactly what will happen.

League Structure based on following criteria

50% on the field sucess - 20% on this season, 30% over last 5 seasons

We do not know how first division results will be graded against premier results but this criteria would appear to rule out Sligo Rovers for one.

10% on Infastructure
15% on Uefa License

Again need more clarification on Infrastructure requirements. This should be covered in the UEFA Licensing anyway. If minimum seating capacity is now 3,000 this would rule out almost all clubs. Why make Licensing worth 150 points out of 1000 anyway? The idea behind it was that membership of the league was dependent on football performance and whether or not you got a Premier license. Why does an increase in prize money (of less than Bobby Robson's part-time salary) and the introduction of a salary cap need to have all this other nonsense associated with it. Setanta Cup spot for 1st Division champions - extreme tokenism.

15% on Sustainablity and Future Plans

The heart of the proposal - I don't see how this can be determined objectively. We've seen great plans from every club and many of them never materialise or are delayed forever (e.g. 10 years and counting on Tallaght). As of now, Shelbourne have no stadium plans apart from confirming that it is not sustainable for them to stay in Tolka.

More worryingly for me is what happens when the future plans of a club - stay in Richmond - contradict the future plans of the FAI - force the club to go to Tallaght.

10% on Location

The decentralisation argument - Is it better to have teams close to population centres or spread out around the country? Is Longford a "better" location than South-East Dublin? Is Sligo better than Bray? Limerick or Tallaght?

Not to mention the mockery this makes of the current season -

Longford have a good recent record, infrastructure so they look to be safe. Although they have performed poorly on UEFA Licensing this is only 15% of the total mark and so is now less significant. Derry, Cork and Drogheda (at Dundalk's expense) have good locations so they will be there. Shelbourne and Bohs would get in on past season results at least. Shamrock Rovers fans seem to be very confident of getting in as well - the staunch support of the FAI for their "future plans" for Tallaght would probably be the main factor for their inclusion, no matter how far these plans have developed by the start of the new season (they will be disappointed that History/Tradition is not one of the criteria

).

By my rough reckoning that would leave 5 places for the remaining clubs to battle it out for in two ways:

1. On the field
2. Making sure their future plans go along with the plans of the FAI hierarchy.

So realistically, this 'Premiership' (and a big red flag there for anyone who doesn't doubt the competence/sanity of the people behind this proposal) would have 5 clubs from

- Pats
- Dublin City
- Sligo
- Bray
- Waterford
- Limerick
- Galway
- Finn Harps
- Athlone
- Dundalk (although there may not be room for two teams in Louth).

**pineapple stu** · 26/05/2006, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I haven't ignored your calls - I've answered them very clearly above !

Licensing can achieve broadly the same result, but over a dramatically longer time scale. You may think that Irish football has 10 years to play around with creeping towards exactly the same point that this new FAI proposal would get it to anyway, but I don't. Why delay the ineviatble ??

But you still seem to think that this new proposal will make everything better like magic - certainly move things along at a quicker pace than Licencing. There's no evidence for that. Things like building new grounds/improving grounds take time. Since Licencing came in, you've seen big steps in that regard - Athlone, Bohs, Bray, Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Dundalk, Harps, Galway, Limerick, Pat's, UCD and Waterford anyway have all announced plans for ground improvements. That's fairly quick pace, if you ask me. I don't see how some spurious document which actively cherry-picks a Premier Division is going to achieve this any quicker. So why bother if it's going to lead the league into controversy and ridicule?

**pineapple stu** · 26/05/2006, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint

We do not know how first division results will be graded against premier results but this criteria would appear to rule out Sligo Rovers for one.

22 marks for winning the Premier down to 1 for last in the First. Add that up over five years, add in the Cup results (10 for winning the FAI Cup down to 1 for getting knocked out in the second round), League Cup results (8 for winning down to 1 for group stage) and European results (1 for a win and � for a draw). Then sort by total score and appoint 300-290-280-...-110-100-90 to the clubs.

200 down to 60 for this season. An average gap of 6.363636, so don't know how that'll be worked out exactly.

**WeAreRovers** · 26/05/2006, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint

Shamrock Rovers fans seem to be very confident of getting in as well - the staunch support of the FAI for their "future plans" for Tallaght would probably be the main factor for their inclusion, no matter how far these plans have developed by the start of the new season (they will be disappointed that History/Tradition is not one of the criteria

).

Jerry - no-one at Rovers thinks that we'll get in on the strength of our history. We will however be there on the strength of our fanbase (even in the 1st Division), the way the club is being run now - prudently and responsibly, our involvement in the community in Tallaght (24 schoolboy teams, schools link-up started, Tallaght IT link etc), our "brand" etc etc.

Also, you'd want to start looking a wee bit closer at Pats. Any idea of Mr Mulvey's plans? They sure as hell don't involve Pats playing in Richmond.

KOH

**Ringo** · 26/05/2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

From having read the document- UCD are unlikely to suffer much from the changes, but Dublin City probably are. Overall it looks good, although it makes no sense to me to keep the 12 team premier for 2 years and then change. What if it's working out well- why change again? If the 12 team premier isn't the way to go why leave it there for 2 years? I'd prefer a 12 team premier with plenty of ups and downs every year.

The big winners are going to be Shamrock Rovers, who will gain a lot of points based on their performance when they were a financial basket case. Big losers could be Sligo Rovers who need to finish well up this year to avoid being dragged down by their 5 year record.

Also, there no mention of an U18 league or dual registration, both of which I think are very important.

Raise�s some interesting legal questions about Rovers previous points. What happens when the teams relegated bounce back up? Change the teams in the premiership again? No doubt this will end up in court

**sullanefc** · 26/05/2006, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ringo

Raise�s some interesting legal questions about Rovers previous points. What happens when the teams relegated bounce back up? Change the teams in the premiership again? No doubt this will end up in court

You going to sue, Rocky?

**JW.** · 26/05/2006, 12:12 PM

Rebranding the league as "the Premiership" smacks of sycophancy. Why not call it the Super League or something corny like that. Imagine the confusion on the radio sports bulletins. Are we now some branch of the English monster?

**Student Mullet** · 26/05/2006, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

you're already complaining about the increase in seat requirement from 1,500 to 3,000. As if 3,000 seats should ever be even close to acceptable in our Premier Division !

Steve,
I think the complaint is that the requirement is being changed with a few weeks notice which is not a realistic timescale for building a new stand.

**Mr A** · 26/05/2006, 12:21 PM

I thought the requirement was to be able to hold 3000 people safely, not seat them?

In any case UCD's plans for a new ground are likely to help them. Really don't think UCD have too much to worry about in the short term at least.

**WeAreRovers** · 26/05/2006, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by sullanefc

You going to sue, Rocky?

He's not Rocky.

KOH

**Student Mullet** · 26/05/2006, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

I thought the requirement was to be able to hold 3000 people safely, not seat them?

That's my understanding aswell but the point is still valid; Why is the infrastructure requirement different to the one that has been in place for three years? What was the point in changing it at such short notice?

**pineapple stu** · 26/05/2006, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

I thought the requirement was to be able to hold 3000 people safely, not seat them?

It is, yeah. But it's still changing the goalposts. The proposed Belfield Bowl, for example, was designed with 1500 seats in mind per UEFA Licencing. Now we've to ensure the plans allow for 1500 additional people standing. The change might hit other clubs too (again, I know UCD best, obviously).

**Danny** · 26/05/2006, 12:29 PM

22 marks for winning the Premier down to 1 for last in the First. Add that up over five years, add in the Cup results (10 for winning the FAI Cup down to 1 for getting knocked out in the second round), League Cup results (8 for winning down to 1 for group stage) and European results (1 for a win and � for a draw). Then sort by total score and appoint 300-290-280-...-110-100-90 to the clubs.

200 down to 60 for this season. An average gap of 6.363636, so don't know how that'll be worked out exactly.

Anyone wanna take it on them selves to do this up for each team ?

**Mr A** · 26/05/2006, 12:29 PM

The thing that worries me most is that the performanc eover the last 5 seasons is obviously known- so the FAI KNOW who's going to get the points here. This gives Shamrock Rovers a golden ticket back to the premier and fecks over Sligo. I think that this season should be much more heavily weighted, as looking into the past for an arbitrary period is very ropey indeed, and unfair considering some of the stuff that's gone on- especially at Shamrock Rovers.

I still think it's a pretty good document overall- and there can be changes made yet I think.

**Student Mullet** · 26/05/2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

Really don't think UCD have too much to worry about in the short term at least.

That's what I tought when I dirst saw the plans, UCD seem to come out in 8th position from the on-the-field numbers but then a ranking system is used so as the difference between each successive club is 10 points (out of 500), irrespective of how much ahead or behind other clubs you were. It has the effect of making the on-the-pitch element much less important than it seems at first.

**pineapple stu** · 26/05/2006, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

I thought the requirement was to be able to hold 3000 people safely, not seat them?

In any case UCD's plans for a new ground are likely to help them. Really don't think UCD have too much to worry about in the short term at least.

I worked out the on-field stuff and we come 8th. I added in guesstimates of the off-field stuff and drop to 14th. Pure speculation obviously, but there's still enough to be fairly worried about.

I think I came up with Pat's, Bohs, Shels, Derry, Cork, Bray, Waterford, Longford, Drogheda and Sligo. Bubbling under were Galway (off-field didn't make up for their recent record) and Rovers (on the basis of no ground so no 3000 capacity and also failing UEFA Licencing). Waterford were helped by reaching the Cup Final recently, having a fifth (?) placed finish in the Premier and also being alone in a city. Bray surprised me, to be honest (obviously I didn't aim towards results).

Again, it's pure speculation as I don't know which way the off-field marks will be allocated, but there's enough to indicate that we won't get in.

**pineapple stu** · 26/05/2006, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Student Mullet

That's what I tought when I dirst saw the plans, UCD seem to come out in 8th position from the on-the-field numbers but then a ranking system is used so as the difference between each successive club is 10 points (out of 500), irrespective of how much ahead or behind other clubs you were. It has the effect of making the on-the-pitch element much less important than it seems at first.

Yeah, basically the on-field stuff is worth 350, not 500, as the minimum you can get is 150. So in actual fact, there's potential for heavy weighting towards off-field criteria.

That said, as I was saying to you yesterday, there's no way of knowing whether the capacity, for example, is 100 for having enough and 0 for not having enough, or maybe you're docked 5 points for every hundred under capacity you are or something else random.

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by reginald

a wage cap in our league is the most ridiculous thing imaginable, how will we ever get any reasonably good players over here if they dont get paid well,obviously they will choose england

Given that 60 of the 92 professional clubs in England have financial problems ranging from minimal to borderline terminal which clubs exactly are these Irish players going to play for?
Any proposal that throws any team out of the Premier Division ,when they have not been relegated on the field, for reasons other than clubs being insolvent, financially mismanaged and totally debt ridden and incapable of achieving any off field criteria would not hold much merit.