FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

[John83]

The above could also be a description of a club with no future.

Is a club with attendances of over 1000 (and there aren't that many around), substantial debts and mediocre infrastructure really so much better than one with 600 and the above? Are they really going to vastly advance the league? I don't think so.

Why should the vast majorioty of clubs in Irish domestic football be held back by the limited future of a tiny number of clubs ?

The vast majority are being held back by the likes of UCD? I'm not following your logic here.

[dcfcsteve]

Is a club with attendances of over 1000 (and there aren't that many around), substantial debts and mediocre infrastructure really so much better than one with 600 and the above? Are they really going to vastly advance the league? I don't think so.

I agree with you. I don't think there's a place for eitehr in our league. The badly run clubs therefore need to sort their act out or get out.

The vast majority are being held back by the likes of UCD? I'm not following your logic here.

Where did I say this ? I said that in the context of a much stronger league with bigger attendances, clubs who objectively have a limited potential will hold us back. You're the one fitting UCD into that mould, not me. If UCD kept pace with all the other clubs in-terms of stadium and fan-base, they wouldn't be an example of this.

[thomas]

from todays sun

All clubs recieved the proposals yesterday
12 Team league in 2007
10 Team in 2008

Reserve 'A' League
U21 Winter League

League cup Winners v 1st Division winners for a place in Setanta Cup

Prize Fund up from 230k to 450k a year.

League Structure based on following criteria

50% on the field sucess - 20% on this season, 30% over last 5 seasons
10% on Infastructure
15% on Uefa License
15% on Sustainablity and Future Plans
10% on Location

A lot of sense in it, but calling it the premiership is plain idiotic.
Some people seem to misunderstand the wage cap. It means 65% of incme can be spent on player wages. It doesn't mean there is a limit per player. The 65% is pretty realistic for any club as costs on a turnover less that EUR3.0m would be close to that, if turnoer goes past that there are ways around it, ie spending EUR10.0m prize money from the CL (if that ever hapens) could go 65% on wages, 35% on signing &transfer fees etc. without affecting the existing structure at a club.


The 50% on performance seems wierd, straightforward coeffiecients a la UEFA could be used, but it would need a 3 tier system of points applied to an already split system... complicated or what...

Basing it up to last season.. Rovers would have 11.67 points for the last season and 60.67 for the preceding 4, an average of 15.16. then multiplied by 20%* and 30%* respectively = 2.334 and 3.032.
Compared to cork city: 68.97 / 4 = 17.16 points for 2002-2005 and 24.67 last season = 4.933 and 5.148 points...

So in the league rovers have 5.366 and cork 10.081 etc... then try to work out the euro games and the 1st division and work out what eighting to give those results... on top of that... then try to work out how to equate these quantities to this ******ology:

10% on Infastructure
15% on Uefa License
15% on Sustainablity and Future Plans
10% on Location

FAI.....

[pineapple stu]

Where did I say this ? I said that in the context of a much stronger league with bigger attendances, clubs who objectively have a limited potential will hold us back. You're the one fitting UCD into that mould, not me. If UCD kept pace with all the other clubs in-terms of stadium and fan-base, they wouldn't be an example of this.

You clearly said it in reference to John83's description of UCD.

[Magicme]

From a personal viewpoint, I'm broadly in-agreement with this proposal. I have issues with certain elements of it, but not the broad idea.

As with any dramatic change, I acknowledge that there will be both winners and losers. But the guiding criteria I use in this is as follows.

Imagine how we'd like the Eircom league to be 5 or 10 years down the line.

I'm thinking of a league that is truely sustainable and that 'work's. Not one that lurches from crisis to crisis due to poor leadership and the constant presence of badly-run clubs, or clubs who's long-term viability is extremely limited. Not oe that in no way reflects the spread of populatuion around the country.

I'm thinking of a league that contains financially stable Premier clubs, attracting regular crowds of an average 4-5,000 to watch them in modern 6-10,000 all-seater stadiums.

I'm thinking of a First Division that is no longer a wilderness - one where all teams are also financially stable, attracting crowds of average 2,000 in 5,000+ all-seater stadiums. One where there are much stronger incentives - to progress northwards into the Premiership, and to not progress southwards back to the intermediate game.

A domestic game where the prize money on offer is of a level that sends out a message about how serious Irsh domestic football is being viewed.

A game where part-funding is being provided to employ a member of staff at every club to go out and build strong links with their communities.

Now - ask yourself, is that the kind of league you'd like to see in 5 or 10 years time ? If it is - my next question is not the predictable 'this proposal will deliver that' one. Instead, it is this. If the above league existed, could you really see a place in it for ALL 22 clubs that are currently within EL football ? To risk making myself unpopular amongst fans of certain clubs - would there be room in the league I've described above for a Premier match that attracts less than 100 supporters ? If not - can you realistically see all 22 clubs currently within the league making the required leap over the next 5-10 years to become viable clubs with a much larger average fan-base and a secure financial future ?

If you can put your hand on your heart and say that, under the type of stable and well supported league we would all like to see, there is genuinely room for all 22 current clubs then fine. But I personally cannot see how certain clubs can progress at the pace required off-the-pitch to survive under such a league. And if they wouldn't survive in the type of league that we want and we hope we are moving towards, then in all honesty what is the point in them staying in senior football at all ? A league will only be as strong as its weakest teams - and those teams will hold it back if a significant gulf in fan-base and financial viability opens up between them and everyone else.

I'll don my hard hat now in-advance of the expected flack from fans who suspect that the untenability of their clubs means that they're due for the chop.

You made me cry.

[pineapple stu]

Incidentally Steve, do you want to reply to my comments that the new proposal offers to actual path between now and this brave new world?

[sullanefc]

from todays sun

All clubs recieved the proposals yesterday
12 Team league in 2007
10 Team in 2008

I don't like the way they keep changing it. Hopefully they will settle on one.

Reserve 'A' League
U21 Winter League

Seems like a good idea to vet other teams that may want to joint the league

League cup Winners v 1st Division winners for a place in Setanta Cup

Great carrot for the first division and may give it some better exposure.

Prize Fund up from 230k to 450k a year.

Excellent

League Structure based on following criteria

50% on the field sucess - 20% on this season, 30% over last 5 seasons
10% on Infastructure
15% on Uefa License
15% on Sustainablity and Future Plans
10% on Location

The ones in bold are the obvious ones that the UCD and Dublin City type untenable teams will be worried about. Only 25%?

Infrastructure is pretty vague.

[sullanefc]

BTW would it be possible to have a poll on what people thought the 12 chosen clubs will be. One vote per person and each person picks 12 teams. Possibly in another thread.

[Ronnie]

Is there a requirement to pass everything - like could a club have a brillliant result in 4 categories and rubbish in 1 and be out of the loop?

[John83]

I agree with you. I don't think there's a place for eitehr in our league. The badly run clubs therefore need to sort their act out or get out.

Okay. So we want clubs with no financial problems, excellent facuilities and large attendances. This much, we all agree on. The problem is that we don't have any of those, and I disagree that the proposals will make any.

I said that in the context of a much stronger league with bigger attendances, clubs who objectively have a limited potential will hold us back.

You know what? We don't have a much stronger league with bigger attendances. And I don't see how the proposals are going to get us one. Objectively limited potential? Every club in the league has the potential to draw crowds of many times what the biggest clubs get now. But their current crowds are being used as a yardstick.

Meanwhile, finances aren't being brought into this at all. *cough*Shels*cough*.

I'm looking at the current criteria, and I'm not seeing "objectively limited potential" as a criterion. I'm seeing a fudge that will weaken the league behind the biggest clubs and give them more money.

This proposal will hurt every club in the league that isn't Bohs, Cork, Derry or Drogheda.

[sullanefc]

You know what? We don't have a much stronger league with bigger attendances. And I don't see how the proposals are going to get us one. Objectively limited potential? Every club in the league has the potential to draw crowds of many times what the biggest clubs get now. But their current crowds are being used as a yardstick.

Meanwhile, finances aren't being brought into this at all. *cough*Shels*cough*.

I'm looking at the current criteria, and I'm not seeing "objectively limited potential" as a criterion. I'm seeing a fudge that will weaken the league behind the biggest clubs and give them more money.

This proposal will hurt every club in the league that isn't Bohs, Cork, Derry or Drogheda.

DOOM DOOM DOOM. Good god man, at least we could give it a go. The league is going no where at present. These things have to be tried out.

[John83]

League Structure based on following criteria
50% on the field sucess - 20% on this season, 30% over last 5 seasons
10% on Infastructure
15% on Uefa License
15% on Sustainablity and Future Plans
10% on Location

The ones in bold are the obvious ones that the UCD and Dublin City type untenable teams will be worried about. Only 25%?

Infrastructure is pretty vague.

Actually, there's more detail than this in the proposal, so infrastructure isn't going to be vague. It just looks that way now.

I'm sick of this "untenable" crap. More clubs from Cork have gone bust than UCD have had managers, but still we're "untenable", smack in the middle of an uncontested (by football) catchment area with a population bigger than Drogheda and Derry stuck together.

As for future plans, the league keeps changing the bar. As Pineapple stu already said, UEFA licencing requires 1500 seats. Now this proposal seems to be looking for 3000. How the hell do you plan for that?

[NY Hoop]

From a personal viewpoint, I'm broadly in-agreement with this proposal. I have issues with certain elements of it, but not the broad idea.

As with any dramatic change, I acknowledge that there will be both winners and losers. But the guiding criteria I use in this is as follows.

Imagine how we'd like the Eircom league to be 5 or 10 years down the line.

I'm thinking of a league that is truely sustainable and that 'work's. Not one that lurches from crisis to crisis due to poor leadership and the constant presence of badly-run clubs, or clubs who's long-term viability is extremely limited. Not oe that in no way reflects the spread of populatuion around the country.

I'm thinking of a league that contains financially stable Premier clubs, attracting regular crowds of an average 4-5,000 to watch them in modern 6-10,000 all-seater stadiums.

I'm thinking of a First Division that is no longer a wilderness - one where all teams are also financially stable, attracting crowds of average 2,000 in 5,000+ all-seater stadiums. One where there are much stronger incentives - to progress northwards into the Premiership, and to not progress southwards back to the intermediate game.

A domestic game where the prize money on offer is of a level that sends out a message about how serious Irsh domestic football is being viewed.

A game where part-funding is being provided to employ a member of staff at every club to go out and build strong links with their communities.

Now - ask yourself, is that the kind of league you'd like to see in 5 or 10 years time ? If it is - my next question is not the predictable 'this proposal will deliver that' one. Instead, it is this. If the above league existed, could you really see a place in it for ALL 22 clubs that are currently within EL football ? To risk making myself unpopular amongst fans of certain clubs - would there be room in the league I've described above for a Premier match that attracts less than 100 supporters ? If not - can you realistically see all 22 clubs currently within the league making the required leap over the next 5-10 years to become viable clubs with a much larger average fan-base and a secure financial future ?

If you can put your hand on your heart and say that, under the type of stable and well supported league we would all like to see, there is genuinely room for all 22 current clubs then fine. But I personally cannot see how certain clubs can progress at the pace required off-the-pitch to survive under such a league. And if they wouldn't survive in the type of league that we want and we hope we are moving towards, then in all honesty what is the point in them staying in senior football at all ? A league will only be as strong as its weakest teams - and those teams will hold it back if a significant gulf in fan-base and financial viability opens up between them and everyone else.

I'll don my hard hat now in-advance of the expected flack from fans who suspect that the untenability of their clubs means that they're due for the chop.

Great post.

From a LEAGUE point of view it is the future without a doubt. UCD fans are getting themselves into a lather here, needlessly IMO. This WILL be adopted. There is no chance clubs are going to turn down increased prize money and with that a better run league.

Monday night has my mind up. There is no way CHF should be in the league in any way, shape or form. When this is brought in in the summer and IF UEFA licensing is strictly enforced we can get on with having a serious league.

KOH

[John83]

DOOM DOOM DOOM. Good god man, at least we could give it a go. The league is going no where at present. These things have to be tried out.

We had UEFA licencing for the last couple of years. You know what? I fully supported it. I can see how it could have improved the league. I still do and it still can, but it has to be actually implimented, not bloody stretched every year to fit whatever criterion has been missed now.

What's the point of having a new 10 year plan every three years?

[Ronnie]

DCFC Steve - badly run clubs, when? Today, last year? Not right to be castigatinh other clubs for making the same mistakes Derry made in the past.

Talking about crowds and sustainability means nothin. EG Monaco. Or Chiveo in Italy, and some Primera Liga clubs. Barcelone avergae is 10 times some other clubs in the Division.

[John83]

...This WILL be adopted. There is no chance clubs are going to turn down increased prize money and with that a better run league.

I see nothing about a better run league. You're right though. Clubs won't turn down a prize money increase. Regardless of what's tacked on to it.

Monday night has my mind up. There is no way CHF should be in the league in any way, shape or form. When this is brought in in the summer and IF UEFA licensing is strictly enforced we can get on with having a serious league.

KOH

UEFA licencing already would get rid of CHF. As will the auditors, given enough time.

[Magicme]

Ha....yeah give it a go....sure what harm could it do....

Wake up! Giving it a go would mean that at least 10 clubs would disappear coz they would not be financially viable in a lesser league with all the glory and sunshine on the "Premiership"

Agh....memo to self: bite ur tongue and just cry

[WeAreRovers]

Fans like you are a disgrace to the Eircom League.

Correction, games like the Dublin City/UCD farce are a disgrace to the eircom league.

Mind you, RTID is a disgrace too.

KOH

[sullanefc]

I'm sick of this "untenable" crap. More clubs from Cork have gone bust than UCD have had managers, but still we're "untenable", smack in the middle of an uncontested (by football) catchment area with a population bigger than Drogheda and Derry stuck together.

Then why don't ye get bigger attendances????? Would a name change help?? Blackrock FC?? Dundrum FC??

[pineapple stu]

Is there a requirement to pass everything - like could a club have a brillliant result in 4 categories and rubbish in 1 and be out of the loop?

No - it's out of 1000 and the top 10/12 get in. I think you still have to "pass" UEFA Licencing though.

The ones in bold are the obvious ones that the UCD[...]type untenable teams will be worried about.

What's a "UCD type untenable team" when it's at home?

Good god man, at least we could give it a go.

Nonsense. You consider the pros and cons of any proposal and make an informed decision on that basis. Pros - none that I can see. Cons - Potential legal action. More mockery of the league. No ideas as to how to actually move the league forward - just saying that it'll be done. There's no solid ideas there at all - it's just waffle. There's no basis to adopt it at all.

There are some interesting ancillary ideas contained in the proposal, incidentally. Setanta Cup play-off, more prize money - things like that. Kind of reminds me of the Simpsons episode where an unpopular bill is paper-clipped onto a really popular bill to get it through.