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Thread: FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

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    Quote Originally Posted by higgins
    Look I have stated above the 1,500 seats shows yet again your serious lack of ambition. The current proposal may not be the right way to do things that will get clubs with lack of ambition out of the Premier but as long as it has the desired result Im all for it.
    ..
    So Higgins, we all know Shels are leaving Tolka, you criticise UCD's plans so what exactly are yours? Where are you going, what's the stadium plans etc? Last I heard you wanted to move to Dalier, thats dead so UCD seem to have more concrete plans than Shels.

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    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    Emmett Malone raises a lot of very good points in today's Irish Times-

    Sprint for top table is a concern for many

    On Soccer: It may, in a strange sort of way, be a measure of how hard its authors worked over the past couple of months to achieve a broadly acceptable compromise, that just about everybody is at least slightly uneasy with the proposals aimed at dramatically overhauling the Eircom League that were launched last week, writes Emmet Malone

    The objections, predictably enough, vary from club to club, but critically, there is not nearly the same sense of a divide between the have and have nots that manifested itself in the wake of "Genesis Two" last year.

    With the association still insisting the new league should be in place for the start of next season, the most immediate concern amongst the clubs is who might qualify for the first sitting at the top table. It is proposed the entire assessment process is to be marked out of 1,000, with up to 200 awarded on the basis of sporting achievements this season, a further 300 for what has been achieved over the past five years and a further 500 available under such headings as infrastructure, club licensing, strategic planning and target markets/population densities/attendances.

    Though there is still considerable discomfort in some quarters regarding the anticipated pace of change, there is also relief that some of the radical aspects of Genesis have been quietly dropped and that a much greater emphasis is to be placed on what clubs have achieved on the field of play.

    This rethink means that proposals, seen by some as amounting to little more than a geographically based "beauty contest", are now largely off the agenda although some doubt remains as to quite how the four-man committee charged with assessing the merits of each application for membership of the "new" league will consider the issues of population and attendances. This will be of particular interest to at least a couple of the Dublin clubs who might, in any case, find life increasingly difficult if Government funding is "strategically targeted".

    The sporting criteria, indeed, are about the only completely transparent part of the selection process unveiled last week but the retrospective nature of this aspect of the scheme looks to be one of the more likely sources of a legal challenge.

    In the event, for instance, that a club are excluded from the top flight on the basis that they invested heavily in ground improvements so that they might conform with licensing requirements while a rival is included in the Premier Division despite a much more casual attitude to the standard of its facilities, we might find that the policies of the last five years, as well as the way they were policed, are revisited in the courts.

    On the basis of what is available so far Limerick could be the big losers in this department with the current First Division leaders languishing in 18th of 22 places in the five-year record section, a performances that would earn them just 130 of the available 300 points. Shelbourne, as it happens, top the list and could apparently expect to get all 300 points while Longford Town come second, in no small part because of their recent cup performances, ahead of Cork, Bohemians and Derry respectively.

    The decision to begin and end the process of reform during the current campaign also seems risky legally although, more fundamentally, it just looks unfair and, given the importance of what is being done here, just a little rushed.

    It seems reasonable that clubs should have at least one year in which to reorder their priorities so as to maximise their chances of achieving top flight status. And one might also expect that the debate that will inevitably be generated by last week's document would be allowed to continue for more than just the few weeks currently envisaged.

    The various reservations raised in private by clubs so far include the structure of the proposed A League and the obligation on Premier Division clubs to enter a reserve team in this new, regional tier of the league, the enforceability of the 65 per cent of turnover "salary cap", the surrender by clubs of control to the association, the speed with which capital grants will be made available and the further marginalisation of the First Division.

    Most seem willing to give ground on positions that, in some cases, seemed inflexible a few short months ago and that in itself is something of a tribute to the way the association's Implementation Committee, those who wrote the document, have managed to take on board the concerns that were raised in relation to "Genesis Two" since it was published late last year. It is hard to imagine, though, that sufficient time can be given to ironing out the outstanding problems ahead of a proposed league agm at the end of next month.

    The scheme's chief champion, John Delaney has, of course, been around long enough to know there is virtually no environment in which money talks quite as persuasively as it does in the national league. Levels of desperation for fresh sources of cash may vary from club to club but on the whole it seems safe to conclude that, if they were turkeys, a two thirds majority of the 22 would readily vote for Christmas as long as they felt sure that half decent cheques would be in their possession by December 24th .

    Ultimately, though, it would be a great pity and perhaps a costly mistake, too, if the required majority was now to be secured with that most traditional of vote winners, the promise of more cheques. With so much at stake for the league, spending the time required to properly complete what has been started over the last few months might just prove priceless.

    The full text of the FAI document is available at www.ireland.com/sports/soccer

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu
    Hear hear. The FAI taking full control of the league is a serious concern as well, and receiving less comment than it deserves because people have a bee in their bonnets that UCD's and Dublin City's attendances are somehow stopping Derry City from achieving their full potential. We're talking about an organisation headed by someone who nearly bankrupted Waterford United and who failed to notice that Shamrock Rovers were being bankrupted despite it being blatantly obvious on their licencing application. It's an organisation with an honorary life member (I think) who, 20 years on, is ultimately responsible for most of Shamrock Rovers' troubles to this day. It's an organisation with frequent rumours of clubs having excessive influence and which is now actively looking to screw over some of its members. If there were a fit and proper owner test (which I note isn't included in the new proposals), the FAI would fail. Are people happy with them controlling our league?
    AGAIN what's the alternative? We carry on as normal and hope a sugar daddy comes in?

    Chippie wigan, alaves etc dont get crowds of less than a hundred. That's the point.


    KOH

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Hoop
    AGAIN what's the alternative? We carry on as normal and hope a sugar daddy comes in?
    Implement UEFA Licencing properly and competently. Let the league continue its upward curve of the past few years. Avoid dragging it through the legal wranglings which will inevitably ensue from this proposal. Avoid the negative comment and mockery which will inevitably ensue (and has to an extent, reading Emmet Malone's article). Clubs getting crowds of under 100, having to pay another club rent and clearly living way beyond their means will be dealt with accordingly under proper UEFA Licencing.

    What's this going to achieve? Do you think this is the sugar daddy we should sit and hope for otherwise? I think you're letting your dislike of Dublin City cloud the fact that cherry picking next season's Premier Division will achieve nothing of substance.

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    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Do the maths? Z + X = 81?

    It was a joke. I didn't think that needed explaining. Plus, the same word was in twice, so it's quite possible he was talking about Mexican nuns. It wouldn't exactly have made his post any less insensible.

  6. #366
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    Plus, the same word was in twice, so it's quite possible he was talking about Mexican nuns.
    It's about time someone said it. For far too long Mexican nuns have been holding back Irish football from fulfilling its potential. As the FAI proposals mention nothing on how to deal with what is the biggest point in Irish football history, they should be voted down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway Harps
    It's about time someone said it. For far too long Mexican nuns have been holding back Irish football from fulfilling its potential. As the FAI proposals mention nothing on how to deal with what is the biggest point in Irish football history, they should be voted down.
    Nonsense. What's the alternative to Mexican nuns? Carrying on nunless like we are now?? Attendances of less than 100 nuns are a disgrace and it's about time that clubs with small numbers of nuns were put out of business.
    We're not arrogant, we're just better.

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    deluded

    Anyone who thinks UCD and DC should be let into any national
    league is deluded
    They bring ZERO to the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chippie0001
    Since the whole arguement seems to come to crowds should Wigan be kicked out of the permiership, maybe Alaves out of La Liega, Siena out of Serie A etc.
    Wigan are in a one team town and their crowds are nowhere near being an embarrassment and Napoli were relegated for the same reasons as us basically. All very different from having clubs that bring absolutely nothing to the league in the top division (not talking about UCD!)

    Fully agree with the rest of your post BTW. Especially the bit about licencing, if we'd enforced licencing in the first place none of this would be happening. This is just another FAI branded bad aid.

    KOH
    No One Likes Us, We Don't Care

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple stu
    Implement UEFA Licencing properly and competently. Let the league continue its upward curve of the past few years. Avoid dragging it through the legal wranglings which will inevitably ensue from this proposal. Avoid the negative comment and mockery which will inevitably ensue (and has to an extent, reading Emmet Malone's article). Clubs getting crowds of under 100, having to pay another club rent and clearly living way beyond their means will be dealt with accordingly under proper UEFA Licencing.

    What's this going to achieve? Do you think this is the sugar daddy we should sit and hope for otherwise? I think you're letting your dislike of Dublin City cloud the fact that cherry picking next season's Premier Division will achieve nothing of substance.
    Legal wranglings are not an inevitability but I concede the threat of them could be.

    I disagree though this document could be the breath of fresh air the league needs. I cant see clubs voting against the increased prize money. They are meeting the clubs and you can bet there will be some bargaining going on. Negative comment and mockery is an Irish trait. Munster won the European Cup and there's people slagging off their fans ffs..........

    Its not personal against CHF its just that they shouldnt be in the league.


    KOH

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    they shouldn't be - but they are

    and this isnt a clever way to deal with the problem if you want to build something sustainable going forward but their success in getting prem division status would lead most intelligent people to question the merits of leapfrogging those who havent achieved that over them

    the fundamental flaws arent even addressed by this situation

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    Nonsense. What's the alternative to Mexican nuns? Carrying on nunless like we are now?? Attendances of less than 100 nuns are a disgrace and it's about time that clubs with small numbers of nuns were put out of business.
    It is quite clear that the future of the eircom league lies with Puerto Rican nuns. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
    If a team is not not keeping up with everyone else then it is clear that only one of 2 things can happen :

    1) The rules punish you for this
    Your percieved saviour of licensing will do this to you sooner or later through off-the-pitch criteria such as the number of seats in your stadium.

    2) The rules themselves are deliberately pegged at a level that doesnt punish the likes of Dublin City and UCD - hence holding the league as a whole back.
    If we have to demand a lower than desired rate of improvements to ensure that the weakest clubs don't get relegated for their infrastructure, then it is to be fully expected that the rest of the league will therefore be held-back by this decision.
    This, I think, is the kernal of our disagreement Steve. You're trying to anticipate who will fail licensing five or ten years down the line and you think they should be relegated now to save the trouble of a relegation in the future. I don't agree with you for a few reasons. I don't agree that trying to guess into the future who'll achieve what is particularly accurate, for example I don't agree that UCD will likely fall fowl of the minimum seats requirement. There are a couple of clubs which would be cought out by this before UCD. Also, I don't agree that the current proposlas will achieve what you describe. The proposals will set promotion and relegation into a binding contract so this is only a short term punishment for whatever clubs get demoted, it's not a long term solution to anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wws
    they shouldn't be - but they are

    and this isnt a clever way to deal with the problem if you want to build something sustainable going forward but their success in getting prem division status would lead most intelligent people to question the merits of leapfrogging those who havent achieved that over them

    the fundamental flaws arent even addressed by this situation
    It should also be noted that UCD haven't been in any financial trouble despite their poor attendances. IMagine what they'd do if they start getting 1,000s to their games. Now that's p[otential...
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    Quote Originally Posted by higgins
    For life ? NO
    For years yes ..

    Word of mouth is a big factor in Ireland. It can make or break this idea.
    If you were faced with a crowd of 83 at your first EL game what would you think ?

    You yet again fail to see how it look on the outside to the non EL fan.

    Ive brought many to Tolka with crowds over a 1000 and still got the 'there's not many here' remarks.
    If you don’t think crowds at games make it a better occasion its not surprising you’re a UCD fan.

    As for the above comment that 1,500 is enough for your needs ???
    Do you not think the fact the current ground in Belfield is a complete and utter sh!thole that it may have some reason why your crowds are so low?
    Do you not think with a better ground you may aim for over 1,500 seats?

    I think the minimum requirement of 1,500 seats is far too low. Anyone who comes to an EL premier league game in the year 2006 should at the very least expect to sit down and watch the game in some sort of comfort.

    You honestly telling us 1,500 is all you need in this new ground?

    Even if your average is well under 1,500 you may very well get a crowd of 2,000 at some stage and to have 500 forced to stand it only serves to back up the opinion that the grounds in the EL are rubbish.

    You lot don’t seem to have any ambition.
    Calling it pragmatism is foolish.

    Your holding the league back

    Ideally I would like the FAI to implement the Club Licence in full and rid the premier of clubs like UCD by requirement issues but I'm happy to go along with the round about way it has the same happy ending.
    You don't seem to have any sense of reality, Higgins. You do not build a stadium bigger than required or much bigger than projected attendances. You don't say "Hmmm, maybe one game we'll get 25% more than planned capacity". That's a waste of money in both construction and maintainence. You keep insisting we have no ambition. We know our resources and we plan our ambitions accordingly. For a club who has no ambitions we have managed to spend 11 of the last 12 years in the top flight and didn't take our last relegation lying down. Ambition is worth nothing unless tempered with realism, something you appear to possess little of.

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    Seen as the whole ucd/dc one was raised and Shmarock Rovers and the300 to Castlebar was raised, one can do the pros and cons. 1. UCD/DC bring 10 fans to an away game = €100 for home club. Extra Sercurity 0 , loss in home fans 0.
    Shamrock Rovers bring 300 fans = €3000 less extra security 1000, extra guards 1000 plus less home fans 1000.

    This complex equation therefore proves that Shamrock Rovers are just as much use to my club as UCD or Dublin City!

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    Oh don't be so pedantic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie
    Seen as the whole ucd/dc one was raised and Shmarock Rovers and the300 to Castlebar was raised, one can do the pros and cons. 1. UCD/DC bring 10 fans to an away game = €100 for home club. Extra Sercurity 0 , loss in home fans 0.
    Shamrock Rovers bring 300 fans = €3000 less extra security 1000, extra guards 1000 plus less home fans 1000.

    This complex equation therefore proves that Shamrock Rovers are just as much use to my club as UCD or Dublin City!
    The above post and this piece of drivel from the Connacht Telegraph show why this league will never get out of the parochial little hole that it's in -

    KOH

    http://www.connaughttelegraph.net/

    "Rovers may be at a low ebb following their relegation last season from the top flight from the national game, but their form since the start of the new campaign on march 10th last suggest the Dublin club is far from down in the dumps with six wins in ten outings.

    The club's journeys to towns like Athlone, Kildare, Dundalk, Monaghan and Ballybofey have also been marred by incidents involving a small sector of their supporters dubbed "The Ultras".

    Consequently, Celtic's big match preparations have been overshadowed by concerns over security arrangements and ground improvements rather than how player-manager Gavin Dykes is planning to use his experience to try and pull off one of the biggest shocks in the history of the competition."
    No One Likes Us, We Don't Care

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    My apologies, I shall spell out my comments fully in future, and refrain from unnessessary frivolity!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
    The club's journeys to towns like Athlone, Kildare, Dundalk, Monaghan
    and Ballybofey have also been marred by incidents involving a small
    sector of their supporters dubbed "The Ultras".

    From what I could see the hassle at the Athlone game was down to a
    gang of locals who we're full to the gills from about 3 or 4pm that day.

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