FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

[Breifne]

In estimating this years figures I have put in the accurate figures for any clubs whose interest in this years League or FAI cups has finished. The remainder have been given an average score (LC - Semi Finalists & FAI Cup - Quarter Finalists). League points are issued as it stands today.
European Qualifiers have been issued with 2 points (2 wins or 1 win & 2 draws). You can adjust these figures depending on expected success.

Obviously these will change depending on results from now to the end of the season.

2006 League FAI Cup Lge Cup Euro Ttl Pts
Athlone Town 6 3 0 0 9 115
Bohemians 16 3 4 0 23 180
Bray Wanderers 10 3 0 0 13 135
Cobh Ramblers 5 3 4 0 12 125
Cork City 20 1 1 2 24 185
Derry City 21 3 4 2 30 195
Drogheda United 22 3 4 2 31 200
Dublin City 17 3 1 0 21 170
Dundalk 4 3 1 0 8 110
Finn Harps 7 3 4 0 14 140
Galway United 8 1 0 0 9 120
Kildare County 3 3 0 0 6 105
Kilkenny City 2 3 0 0 5 100
Limerick 12 3 4 0 19 160
Longford Town 13 3 1 0 17 145
Monaghan United 1 3 1 0 5 95
Shamrock Rovers 11 3 4 0 18 155
Shelbourne 19 3 4 2 28 190
Sligo Rovers 15 3 1 0 19 165
St. Patricks Ath 18 3 1 0 22 175
UCD 14 3 0 0 17 150
Waterford United 9 3 0 0 12 130

[Breifne]

These guesstimates would indicate the following scores

06 01-05 Total
Bohemians 180 300 480
Cork City 185 290 475
Derry City 195 270 465
Shelbourne 190 260 450
Drogheda United 200 230 430
St. Patricks Ath 175 250 425
Longford Town 145 280 425
Shamrock Rovers 155 240 395
UCD 150 220 370
Dublin City 170 170 340
Waterford United 130 210 340
Bray Wanderers 135 200 335
--------------------------------------------------------
Finn Harps 140 190 330
Sligo Rovers 165 160 325
Galway United 120 180 300
Limerick 160 120 280
Cobh Ramblers 125 140 265
Dundalk 110 150 260
Kildare County 105 130 235
Athlone Town 115 90 205
Monaghan United 95 110 205
Kilkenny City 100 100 200

[Breifne]

Bohemians 180 300 480
Kilkenny City 100 100 200

With only 280 points seperating the top teams and the team propping up the foot of the initial league table. it seems kinda scary that the FAI have the authority to award 500 subjectively.

Really shows the truth behind the propaganda. Really the various FAI committees input has almost twice as much influence as the clubs recent on field performance history, and over four times the relevance of the clubs actual finishing position in this years competition.

I actually have little or no problem with the overall suggestion.
Clubs should be looking to improve their facilities
Clubs should be looking to develop players through their own youth development programmes.
Clubs should be looking to improve their relationship with their local community and in turn increase attendances
Clubs should be forced to run their finances in a fit way, if they show no desire to heed advice. Rules and sanctions must be employed.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this.

• This season's final table should have a relevance,
• Cups should not be considered though, teams getting an advantage because of a favourable cup draw four or five years ago is absolute madness, even considering cups for this season where a number of clubs are already out of the competition after fielding weaken sides not realising the significance of that decision.
• The expanded playoff idea is good, more teams involved. they should have included the fourth place finishers in my opinion also. (back to the way it was).
• 10 teams in the premier division is a good idea, the talent will be concentrated in 10 clubs as opposed to 12, Waterford and Bray are examples of that this season. Finn Harps last year (no offence to any of the clubs - again back to the way it used to be)
• Pure Under-20 League is fantastic, no reserves coming in and depriving proper players of football at their own level. A Championship is re-instated and deservedly so.
• Prize money increase is good, but still insufficient
• Setanta Cup playoff for first division not a bad idea, good financial incentive as well as promotion, also will help to bridge the financial gap, extra €30,000 plus tv money for newly promoted club.

My only problem with the entire process is that fact that although the FAI are trying to paint the picture of a (50/50) on-field / off-field balance. Its closer to a three way split (20/30/50) current on-field / historic on-field / off-field balance.

When you consider that the current on-field balance isn't even a full 200 point swing and the historic isn't a full 300 point swing, it becomes more like a 105 / 210 / 500 (13% / 26% / 61%) split.

Of that breakdown, 26% is already decided, and can not be changed. 61% is at the whim of an FAI appointed inspector. 13% of the remainder is based on the clubs performance, and given that some clubs are already out of both cup competitions and not in europe, and may not even be in the premier division, their chances of gaining any meaningful points are greatly hampered.

For example: Under this scheme, should Dublin City have been considered as sixth place and a third round exit from the FAI cup, lets say for arguements sake that DC go on to win the FAI cup and finish third in the league (highly unlikely, but go with me). They would actually recieve a total of 195 points for this season, giving them an extra 25 points. So if the club were to go on a fantastic run over the next few months and perform such heroics. They would benifit by a total of 2.5% in this scheme. Now consider your clubs finish to the season.

alternatively, if DC fade away, lose to Monaghan tonight, and end up tenth in the table, the significance is as follows: We drop 25 points. so if the remainder of the season has a possible 50 point swing, it basically means that on the field of play a club has approximately 5% control over its destiny. be worrying to be honest.

Also there is mention of using historic (last 2 years) attendance figures as part of the criteria. UCD, Finn Harps, Bray, Dublin City, Sligo Rovers have all spent time in the first division in that period.

The whole thing is not looking so FAIR now is it???

I personally think they should bring in all the little extra initiatives they are talking about, but the selection of which teams make the grade for the 12 team premier division needs to be decided on where clubs finish this season. The top ten or eleven sides along with the top one or two in the first division must be in the top flight next season. Anything else is an absolute disgrace.

[Partizan]

You're missing my point. The fact that these things can help a team that has failed to win a single league game after the first round of fixtures is indicative of all that is wrong with this new plan. I know it's a bit early to write off your season, but should your terrible form continue this new proposal seems like it could actually save you from deserved relegation.

Look, if you go down do as one Rovers fan here said, take it on the chin and come back up. I think the proposals are perhaps the only concrete, professional and forward thinking plan that the FAI has ever dreamed up regarding the development of senior football in this country (no smart comments please). if this is done right, this could totally revolutionise the league from top to bottom. I'm in favour of the proposals and if Waterford are in line for the chop then so be it. I will not throw a big hissy fit and cry foul. Why because this is better for the League and the development of football in general even if it is at the expense of Waterford. If we go down, we go down full stop. We will come back as we have done before.

Right now UCD need to get their house in order as do many other Clubs including us. A couple of years sabbatical in the First Division might be what we need but you have to say that Waterford have a helluva lot more going for them than UCD in terms of infrastructure, marketablility and catchment area. UCD's future in the League IMO is guaranteed. They have and will continue to offer alot to football. However if I was a Dublin City fan I'd be sweating it right now. No ground, no support, no potential...

If anyone will be getting the boot in 2 years time it has to be this lot.

[Breifne]

However if I was a Dublin City fan I'd be sweating it right now. No ground, no support, no potential...

If anyone will be getting the boot in 2 years time it has to be this lot.

No Ground: Dublin City don't own a ground true, but they have an arrangement with Bohemians, in much the same way as Waterford, Cork City, Limerick, Derry, Shamrock Rovers, etc have. DC rent a pitch from someone else. That it happens to be one of the best grounds in the country is actually a bonus.

No Support: Small yes. Not Nothing. Its small but its getting bigger progresively. probably not quickly enough for some, but significantly larger than even three or four years ago.

No potential: I disagree completly with that, every club in the country has potential. look at Wigan in england, small town huge threat from various local clubs and other sports, managed to do very well in the premiership this season. Any club can do it. DC just manage to do it on a smaller budget and with little support in numbers. They should be complemented for keeping it afloat not chastised.

No one will be getting the boot altogether, with an extra league below the first division, we will be increasing the league and looking to recruit more teams, not remove existing ones.

[Poor Student]

Look, if you go down do as one Rovers fan here said, take it on the chin and come back up.

Partizan, there's no reason why we should have to do that. If we finish bottom then I'd take it on the chin without a complaint, otherwise I will have greivances. A relegation is damaging to a club, it reduces attendances, media exposure and potential to raise funds. No one should have to arbitrarily take it on the chin.

I think the proposals are perhaps the only concrete, professional and forward thinking plan that the FAI has ever dreamed up regarding the development of senior football in this country (no smart comments please). if this is done right, this could totally revolutionise the league from top to bottom.

What's so revolutionary about it? The added prize money? The wage cap? The name change? The convoluted formula is not required to introduce any of that. The league will benefit most from having its best 10 or 12 (whatever number you want) football teams in the top flight. If you want to set minimum standards then do so and give time for these standards to be met.

I'm in favour of the proposals and if Waterford are in line for the chop then so be it. I will not throw a big hissy fit and cry foul. Why because this is better for the League and the development of football in general even if it is at the expense of Waterford. If we go down, we go down full stop. We will come back as we have done before.

This is football, and I will accept a footballing relegation and get on with it if it happens but I can't just stoicly accept being relegated under a complicated and subjective formula. Again, I fail to see how it benefits Irish football.

Right now UCD need to get their house in order as do many other Clubs including us. A couple of years sabbatical in the First Division might be what we need but you have to say that Waterford have a helluva lot more going for them than UCD in terms of infrastructure, marketablility and catchment area. UCD's future in the League IMO is guaranteed.

We could always do with improvement, but standards introduced to trigger this improvement cannot be introduced mid season without us having any time to meet such criteria and some of the criteria like marketability and catchment area is too subjective to be on the table with such high consequences at stake. Waterford do have more going for them in UCD in those aspects, but football is full of teams of varying fanbases, stadiums, resources, catchment areas etc.

They have and will continue to offer alot to football. However if I was a Dublin City fan I'd be sweating it right now. No ground, no support, no potential...

If anyone will be getting the boot in 2 years time it has to be this lot.

The only thing I would boot Dublin City out for is their woeful accounts. The major problem I see in Irish football is clubs paying out more money than they take in and I think the salary cap is a great idea.

[Dr.Nightdub]

A few points:

- Breifne, you left out our two Intertoto wins in 2002-03 (against Rijeka and Gent), though I don't think it'd make a huge difference to the overall scheme of things.

- In general terms, it makes sense to factor in the results of more than just this season - otherwise, there'd be too much temptation on clubs to be completely silly in the hope of achieving a flash-in-the-pan performance for the sake of satisfying the criteria.

- One thing no-one's commented on that is a great idea is the availability of €10k per club for part-funding a football in the community officer. As usual, the funding is inadequate but at least it's a step in the right direction. From looking at the website of our Cup opponents, Malahide Utd, there's a lot that LoI clubs could learn in this regard from non-League clubs.

- "Marketability" and "catchment area" are not as vague as people are making out. For example, marketability can be measured objectively by referring to attendances and / or the amount of sponsorship revenue generated. Catchment area is an equal no-brainer - the population within a defined radius of the club, with the population of Dublin being divided in six (Bray can sod off though, they've always insisted they're not a Dublin club, now's when that comes back to haunt them )

- "Sustainability" is equally capable of being measured objectively. Clubs already have to provide a tax clearance cert for licencing, audited accounts as well (or if it's not there already, then add it), now they're adding the salary cap which makes eminent sense, the only aspect missing is a requirement to provide a three-year financial plan. Any club should be capable of putting that together, it can be referred to some kind of independent assessor to check that it's realistic (yer man Alex whatsit from Stokes Kennedy Crowley that does the Lotto only works two nights a week, I'm sure he'd be available) e.g. that the likes of Kilkenny or Monaghan aren't factoring in the prize money for qualifying for the group stages of the CL. Anything beyond three years is total crystal ball stuff, especially considering the FAI will probably have come up with a whole new scheme to re-relaunch the League by 2009.

[Poor Student]

- "Marketability" and "catchment area" are not as vague as people are making out. For example, marketability can be measured objectively by referring to attendances and / or the amount of sponsorship revenue generated.

Using what attendance figures? Both Pinepple Stu's and the ones given to the FAI by the clubs are not accurate. On the catchment area aspect, if they used your formula, then it will be heavily biased in favour of Dublin clubs. Also, if you look at the PDF document from the FAI website there is a point in there again about addressing geographical spread again. Not sure how this fits into the formula.

[mypost]

No Support: Small yes. Not Nothing. Its small but its getting bigger progresively. probably not quickly enough for some, but significantly larger than even three or four years ago.

Home Farm have no support to speak of, end of. They had none in 1986, none in 1996, and none in 2006. All the name changes in the world ain't going to change that situation. 83 people went to your last league game. There will be more fans of Castlebar Celtic at our cup game tomorrow, and they are a non-league side. A club is soulless without a fan base to call upon. The fact that Home Farm have effectively none, is finally going to count against them under the new proposals.

No potential: every club in the country has potential. look at Wigan in england, small town huge threat from various local clubs and other sports, managed to do very well in the premiership this season. Any club can do it.

Wrong comparison. Wigan may not have as much support as other clubs in the Greater Manchester region, but they are a town in their own right, and have a catchment area to recruit support. Your club's fans are largely made up of player relations, while UCD's support is similiarly made up of college graduates, and not the wider Dublin community as a whole. Now it seems that the FAI are finally going to do something about that situation, for the long-term benefit of the league.

[Poor Student]

Your club's fans are largely made up of player relations, while UCD's support is similiarly made up of college graduates, and not the wider Dublin community as a whole.

Says who?

[pete]

I think the FAI criteria are a failure. They have failed to construct in advance a criteria that would remove Home Farm & UCD from the Premier. Its not difficult - pick the top 12 clubs & construct the criteria to get them into the Premier.

[Poor Student]

They have failed to construct in advance a criteria that would remove Home Farm & UCD from the Premier.

You're messing, right?

[Roverstillidie]

Correction, games like the Dublin City/UCD farce are a disgrace to the eircom league.

Mind you, RTID is a disgrace too.

KOH

oi, you have to spend about 10 hours on a coach with me tomorrow, so watch it

the reality is that league clubs (most noticibly mine) have been run shambolically for years and the FAI are finally doing something about it.

why should galway do everything right in terms of corporate structure, buiding a half decent stadium etc languish in div 1 while CHF make no effort to run their affairs properly and get a ground, spending 150% of their budget on wages, be above them? this is a leveller that will reward good behaviour over the past 5 years.

im broadly for it and even more deeply happy we removed mcliar last year now

[sligoman]

The main thing bugging me is that the new league is going to be called the "eircom Premiership". Hardly original and it's not going to make a difference to the barstoolers...

[DmanDmythDledge]

I think the FAI criteria are a failure. They have failed to construct in advance a criteria that would remove Home Farm & UCD from the Premier. Its not difficult - pick the top 12 clubs & construct the criteria to get them into the Premier.

Well if they picked the top 12 clubs the both of us would be in the Premier.

[Poor Student]

why should galway do everything right in terms of corporate structure, buiding a half decent stadium etc languish in div 1 while CHF make no effort to run their affairs properly and get a ground, spending 150% of their budget on wages, be above them? this is a leveller that will reward good behaviour over the past 5 years.

I agree with you, however the formula doesn't really seem engineered towards addressing this. It doesn't seem to take financing and expenditure into account when picking the clubs for the inagural Premiership.

[dcfcsteve]

The main thing bugging me is that the new league is going to be called the "eircom Premiership". Hardly original and it's not going to make a difference to the barstoolers...

I agree with you Sligoman on the name being cac, but a name alone isn't going to make a jot of difference to the barstoolers anyway.

[higgins]

I think the overall proposal from the FAI is a good one.

Anyone who can argue that a game in the capital city between two Dublin clubs that gets 83-150 people is not a reason for being kicked out of this new Premiership is mad.

The League cant exist with those figures and Im fully behin the 50% off field rules the FAI have outlined.

My only concern is that they may not be fair in their distribution of the 500 points on offer but overall its a good idea.

You cant play in the Premiership getting 83/150 people for a home game.

[DmanDmythDledge]

You cant play in the Premiership getting 83/150 people for a home game.

And you can't play in the Premiership if you're not good enough.

I agree that the crowds aren't good enough but there has to be a better way to improve the league rather than kicking out the teams with low attendences for one season.

[Poor Student]

I think the overall proposal from the FAI is a good one.

Anyone who can argue that a game in the capital city between two Dublin clubs that gets 83-150 people is not a reason for being kicked out of this new Premiership is mad.

The League cant exist with those figures and Im fully behin the 50% off field rules the FAI have outlined.

My only concern is that they may not be fair in their distribution of the 500 points on offer but overall its a good idea.

You cant play in the Premiership getting 83/150 people for a home game.

UCD can and have survived comfortably on low gates for over two decades now. I don't think Dublin City can, but that's a matter for their board. The figures themselves are irrelevant. If you can manage to survive and put a team on the park that is capable of not getting relegated from the Premier Division then clearly it's no reason to kick someone out. I'd be more worried about a club pushing it so close with the Revenue that they earned themselves a winding up notice in the paper.