QuoteNot sure, I was racking my brains to work that one out. You are correct though, Pantsil was injured early on in the season, then featured (poorly) sporadically thereafter. Baird was first choice. Its just one less fullback at he club I suppose!
Did Kelly play under Jol at Spurs? Might be the new manager rates him and Stephen could get more of a game. Although I think Baird was the starting right back last year?
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Not sure, I was racking my brains to work that one out. You are correct though, Pantsil was injured early on in the season, then featured (poorly) sporadically thereafter. Baird was first choice. Its just one less fullback at he club I suppose!
I thought you were off the drink Ronnie?
"No, I drink to help me mind my own business....can I get you one? (c) Ronnie Drew
Yeah according to Wikipedia he played under Jol. Although Jol did let him go in 2006...
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Grygera's been ruled out for six months. Great chance for Kelly to nail down right back at Fulham, particularly considering he know appears to be Trap's go-to emergency defender.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Kelly was offered a new contract by Jol recently. Not sure if he accepted it yet though. He is a steady right full, but definitely not a left full.
Always look on the bright side of life
Grygera's injury looked awful. You could hear him howling on MOTD. Will Jol be tempted to shunt Baird back to RB though?
Nervous about Kelly tomorrow night.. Would have rathered Foley for this game had he been available, to be honest. Kelly is an out and out defender. Not comforatble agianst teams where he's expected to to more on the ball. Prone to loosing posession.
Last edited by dr_peepee; 10/11/2011 at 12:29 PM.
I think he can use it when he wants to. He certainly offers more going forward than O'Shea if allowed. And, in fairness, Kelly has been very consistent for us for a while now (when played at right back at least - the guy's played right across the back four in the last six months). He was excellent in Russia. Plus as much as I like him, Foley didn't show anything more at home to Macedonia. Kelly's steady and I'm confident he'll do fine.Originally Posted by dr_peepee
Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 10/11/2011 at 1:47 PM.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
I agree. Tbh I don't know why he gets the criticism he does. He's not that bad.
"We lost because we didn't win"- Ronaldo
Nusty made some very good observations in his piece after the Armenia game. Kelly is very much a Mr. Reliable sort of player - like KK, he'll do his job to the manager's specific instructions, but he's not going to take any risks to put the team on the front foot. Whatever criticisms people have of Ward, he is always looking to get on the ball and get forward and he has the athleticism to cover when he does make a mistake, like most modern full backs.
It's sort of been the story of Kelly's Fulham career. He's shown glimpses of his talent but his conservatism means he's constantly dropped in favour of less talented players like Pantsil who are more confident in their ability to get forward.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...305644567.html
Foley just hasn't taken to international football (yet?). I was expecting him to be like a Fulham-era Finnan, totally at home at international level from day 1. Instead he's looked nervy and out of synch with the rest of the back 4.
Kelly had one horror show at RB (Georgia - 3 yrs ago) and has only ever been a filler-in at LB. However at RB I have confidence in him, much more than Foley at this stage. I think he's got character about him. I also like the fact that he used to go to all Ireland's home games as a kid.
I listened to the second half of Fulham v Spurs on 5 Live on Sunday and they praised his performance. I then saw the last 15 mins on TV and he did nothing wrong. He brought his right midfielder into play all the time and I don't recall possession breaking down once because of Kelly.
I think he'll do OK.
Agree with all of that. I had the very same Finnan-esque expectations for Foley but he's been disappointing. I rate him but it just hasn't happened for him so far. There's no panic in Kelly, good character alright. Honestly, and with all due respect to them, I wouldn't worry about any of our lot individually against Estonia. Calmest I've ever been the day before a game of this magnitude.
Foley hasn't exactly been given much of a chance. I think he's started about 4 games (8 caps total) and played the 90 only once. Kelly has stayed ahead of him despite not being a regular at club level since the 07/08 season! Kelly has played the 90 for Ireland around 20 times I think and now after his centre back and captain experiences he is seen as some kind of defensive genius. He's ok and he gives his all but don't be expecting him to suddenly be something he's not. People were criticising Ward's poor crossing against Russia when during the same match Kelly didn't even attempt a cross in the whole match! Very limited player in my opinion. Hopefully he shows the relatively good defensive play he has of late and doesn't regress to his former self.
Foley is 27 and has 8 caps. 4787 minutes in the PL since 09/10.
Kelly is 28 and has 25 caps. 1533 minutes in the PL since 09/10.
This sums up Trapatonni's aversion to giving players in form a chance. There are many others.
No one (not even Stephen Kelly's granny) has said or would say he's a defensive genius. What I'd point out is he consistently doesn't get as much credit as he could. In recent months he's been really very good for us at right back, not least in Russia when he was pretty excellent in my mind.
He also attacked at will down the left against Armenia, albeit against ten men who'd left that side exposed. But he isn't averse to getting down the wing if permitted.
Point is - club form is only one factor in a multitude. Foley's unlucky not to have gotten more time on the pitch, but he hasn't shown up well when he's been on. Kelly has. Credit where credit's due.
Moreover, if I'm not mistaken, he lost his place in the Wolves side at the end of last season and wasn't a starter when he got injured. I'm not sure Foley has really been 'in form' for a while, though I'm happy for MancWolf to come along and say otherwise.
Regardless I'm sure Foley will fight back into the Wolves team and get back into form after recovering from injury. But Trap's decision to stick to Kelly has largely been entirely justified. I don't see how it's worth griping over. There's not much between the two of them, but Kelly's shaded it on the pitch.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
The point is that Foley was in form for years, especially since the 08/09 season when he was Wolves' POTY and he wasn't given a sniff of getting into the team.
Kelly's done ok recently but don't be fooling yourself. For YEARS I dreaded seeing him on the pitch for Ireland. There was poor performance after poor performance. On top of this he became a PL reserve yet somehow he stayed first choice backup through it all.
Trapattoni hates to change the squad. Hello, Andy Keogh. Kelly's only here because he always turns up. It seems the only way he finally gives someone else a go is if he is forced to through injury. Hello, Kevin Kilbane. At one stage it was looking as though Kilbane would retire from club football before internationals as Trapattoni would have kept calling him up since club form means nothing to him.
I think you have all missed a pertinent point, Kelly is 1cm taller.
Trap values those minute details.
Foley was given his chance and failed to take it. He nearly cost us the 3 points at home to Macedonia, falling asleep when the defensive line pushed up. He hasn't taken to international football for some reason; he looks nervy. Kelly is more confident.
Kelly is more confident now. Kelly got chance after chance. 25 caps. About 20 full games.
Foley got 1 competitive start. How many times did Kelly 'fall asleep' during his first 20 caps? Foley wasn't developed or given a real chance. That's the point.
Had we been unseeded and gotten the like of Portugal I would opt for Kelly every time.. Watch him in the Premiership. He always does well against the better teams. Against teams were his own team are dominating he doesn't perform well. His limitations are highlighted. He's a pure defender but He hasn't a great touch. Can show too much of the ball bringing it forward. I fear that'll manifest tomorrow. Between him and foley for me it's a horses for courses call rather than comitting to who the better right full is.
Foley was playing well but, come on, he was hardly a slam dunk golden boy right back.
Also Kelly has played extremely reliably since Georgia three years ago. He stayed first choice back up presumably because Trap valued his experience and his adeptness when stepping in off the bench. Fairly justified - Foley had one start competitively and was poor. He'll get other chances, but hardly worth complaining about.
That's not fooling myself, it's just credit to Kelly - do you actually want Trap to discard Stephen Kelly because he played badly three or more years ago? Bizarre logic.
But speculating on what might've been if Foley got a couple of extra caps is hardly any point at all. Particularly when we're talking about a back-up right back, of all things. Kelly has played well under Trap with only one real notable exception (Georgia, 2008). Foley has done ok with one real notable exception (Macedonia, this year). Since then he lost his place at his club team and got injured. That's all there is to it.
Again - not much between them, so Kelly shades it in green. Remember that the Macedonia game was Foley's big chance - Trap explicitly selected him over Kelly (unused sub). And despite conceptions, Trap is happy to play players who prove themselves (St Ledger, Lawrence, Ward, Cox, Long). Unfortunately Foley fumbled the audition.
Ah that old chestnut. Thought that'd been kicked to the kerb entirely but anyway.
He likes Keogh, but it hasn't stopped him bringing in (and playing) Long, Best, Folan, Cox, Walters and Noel hunt in front of him. Six different strikers, not including Keane and Doyle. Killer's been just about our best option at left back for years. When he trusted Ward enough, he played him and now Kilbane ISN'T in the squad. To say Kelly is only in the squad because he turns up is just-a-bit ridiculous.
The squad thing is a total fallacy. Even in the last year he's introduced Cox, Walters, Ward, Forde, Randolph, Clark, Fahey and Coleman, not to mention properly blooding the likes of O'Dea, McCarthy, Westwood and Foley. Plus half way through out last campaign he drafted St Ledger and Lawrence straight into the team and during his tenure there's been fleeting squad appearances for people like Noel Hunt, Martin Rowlands, Eddie Nolan, Keith Treacy, Greg Cunningham, Liam Miller and even NI's main man Alex Bruce. That's just off the top of my head.
The squad has continually evolved and changed - maybe it's not changing as quick as you'd like, but that doesn't mean it's static.
Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 10/11/2011 at 4:39 PM.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
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