Yugoslavia. R.I.P.

**dcfcsteve** · 25/05/2006, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Yes Free Wales, Free Cornwall and Free the Isle Of Man now.
Vive L'Ecosse Libre!

The Isle of Man isn't part of the United Kingdom

**dcfcsteve** · 25/05/2006, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

A bit of perspective here. There has never been a history of animosity at all between Serbia and Montenegro. On previous occasions when Montenegro was independent and Serbia under foreign rule, the Montenegrins provided a welcome haven from foreign domination for Serbs. When Serbia had it's independence it enjoyed neighbourly relations with it's coastal cousins. Under Yugoslavia (1919 - 1992) Montenegro was the benificiary of hefty financial investments in it's infrastructure. Investments I would wager, that an independent Montenegro given it's miniscule population ,( 650,000 current estimate) would have been incapable of doing. 45% approximately of the Montenegrins themselves did not wish to see the break up of the federation. It is also significant that the Montenegrins allowed emigres to return home and vote. And this is a crucial thing I am against emigres having the right to vote on issues such as constitutional status or choosing a government for one simple reason! THEY DO NOT HAVE TO LIVE UNDER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR DECISION! But those unfortunates left behind after the plebiscite on the other hand Do!

In the final Yugoslavia ( 1992 to date) Montenegro was an equal partner in the federation, punching above it's weight. It had self-determination in most areas. The only thing the Federal government actually effected in Montenegro was it's defence and it's consular and foreign affairs representation.
And you can be sure that the Montenegrins will most like rent a floor in the Serbian Embassies currently in place around the world.
Belgrade continued to bankroll projects proposed by the Podgorica administration, that source of income will now be cut off. They will still receive Serbian tourists and receive revenue from them but it will not compensate them for the loss of " Federal Funding" .

I fail to see how a country with a population less than the North side of Dublin can hope to launch itself into the 21st Century without serious amounts of foreign aid. ( For the record I do acknowledge that Luxembourg and Liechtenstein and Andorra have been independent for centuries)

Those darn plucky Montenegrans ! How dare they vote for independence - They don't know how good they had it under us !!

Northern Ireland also does much better for funding under the UK than it would probably do within a United Ireland. Definitely better than it would've done under any unification prior to the Celtic Tiger. But these things are rarely ever about money.

Bottom line is that Montenegro is now independent and will have to make it's own way in the world. A majority of the population wanted it to be that way. Maybe not precisely the 55+% required, but a majority none-the-less. I refuse to believe that sufficiently large numbers of emigres were shipped in etc etc to deliver a 5+% swing in the vote. So a majority wanted it that way.

As for the assertio that Montenegro and Serbia never had any history of animosity - even if that was the case, that changes nothing. Ireland and Wales never had any history of animosity, but that didn't stop the Irish from looking to leave the United Kingdom. If the UK slowly dissolved, until it was merely a Union between Wales and Scotland, the break-up of that would not in-of-itself need to be evidence of past animosity.

Montenegro clearly has its eye on the EU goal. They probably also understood that there may well be a race for membership of that body from now on. There is a growing sense in many of the established EU countries that expansion is happening too fast. If Serbia's inability to sort out its war criminals lead to both them and Montenegro missing out on the EU, then that would be an intolerable price for the Montenegrans to pay.

If they get EU membership, their size and population will become irrelevant.

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

The Isle of Man isn't part of the United Kingdom

Perhaps technically. But they do use Brit passports!

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 7:19 AM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Those darn plucky Montenegrans ! How dare they vote for independence - They don't know how good they had it under us !!

Northern Ireland also does much better for funding under the UK than it would probably do within a United Ireland. Definitely better than it would've done under any unification prior to the Celtic Tiger. But these things are rarely ever about money.

Bottom line is that Montenegro is now independent and will have to make it's own way in the world. A majority of the population wanted it to be that way. Maybe not precisely the 55+% required, but a majority none-the-less. I refuse to believe that sufficiently large numbers of emigres were shipped in etc etc to deliver a 5+% swing in the vote. So a majority wanted it that way.

As for the assertio that Montenegro and Serbia never had any history of animosity - even if that was the case, that changes nothing. Ireland and Wales never had any history of animosity, but that didn't stop the Irish from looking to leave the United Kingdom. If the UK slowly dissolved, until it was merely a Union between Wales and Scotland, the break-up of that would not in-of-itself need to be evidence of past animosity.

Montenegro clearly has its eye on the EU goal. They probably also understood that there may well be a race for membership of that body from now on. There is a growing sense in many of the established EU countries that expansion is happening too fast. If Serbia's inability to sort out its war criminals lead to both them and Montenegro missing out on the EU, then that would be an intolerable price for the Montenegrans to pay.

If they get EU membership, their size and population will become irrelevant.

Fact remains Steve that Partizan's article was spot on !

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by Poor Student

Pan Slavic and pan Yugoslav movements and thought did exist long before the 20th century. Napoleon joined roughly the area of Slovenia and Croatia into one satellite state called the Illyrian provinces. For a while there was a belief that the peoples of that region descended from the ancient people of Illyria and had a common linguistic and cultural heirtage. There was a strong enough Illyrian movement in Slovenia and Croatia in the first half of the 19th century. The Stokavski dialect of Croatia was chosen for the official Croatian language as it was the one which was most similar to Serbian, with some sort of possible unity in mind. It wasn't entirely some madey uppey idea, but an experiment which ultimately proved to be a failure, and a bloody and costly one.

Pan Slavic and Yugoslavic ideas were actually thought up in Zagreb by Croatian intellectuals. So in the same way that Yugoslavism was a Croatian idea, Irish republicanism was dreamed up by Ulster Presbyterians.

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 7:26 AM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Those darn plucky Montenegrans ! How dare they vote for independence - They don't know how good they had it under us !!

Northern Ireland also does much better for funding under the UK than it would probably do within a United Ireland. Definitely better than it would've done under any unification prior to the Celtic Tiger. But these things are rarely ever about money.

Yes but Northern Catholic Nationalists were victims of virtual apartheid for 50 years! Montenegrins were never second class citizens in ex Yugoslavia.

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 7:31 AM

Steve

I gave as an example of panculturalism a Celtonia consisting of Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Brittany , Cornwall and the Isle of Man. I also mentioned that there would be massive religious differences in such a federation. But I will ask you a serious question .
Do you think such a Celtonia would be governable?
I don't, given the number of recalcitrant Pro-English residing in both Ulster and Scotland it would be completely unworkable. Not to mention the wishy washy nature of Welshness, which while culturally strong is politically feeble, and which barely registered enough votes to gain themselves an assembly a few years ago.

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 7:38 AM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

As for the assertio that Montenegro and Serbia never had any history of animosity - even if that was the case, that changes nothing. Ireland and Wales never had any history of animosity, but that didn't stop the Irish from looking to leave the United Kingdom.

That's a pathetic Example. Wales has never been top dog in the UK so as an example it is a nonsense! Welsh rule of Ireland has never occurred. Wales has not been a sovereign state since 1072. Strongbow arrived over A hundred years later!

England dominates the UK and we have a whole 800 years worth of history with them and we couldn't get out of the UK quick enough.

Serbia dominated Yugoslavia having the largest single population bloc within the federation.

As for no animosity between Wales and Ireland..........how does that explain David Lloyd George's machinations which are the root cause of everything awful that happened in your neck of the woods during the 20th Century. That wasn't an act free of animosity! He didn't seem to like us Irish and he was a Welshman!

**dcfcsteve** · 26/05/2006, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Perhaps technically. But they do use Brit passports!

Not perhaps, or even technically CTID. The Isle of Man is simply not part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Full stop.

Falkland Islanders use British passports, but that don't make them part of the UK...

**dcfcsteve** · 26/05/2006, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Fact remains Steve that Partizan's article was spot on !

Fact remains that there was nothing in the article Partizan posted that in any way asserted that the former Yugoslavia should've existed or been maintained, so it's difficult to see what either your or his point is here.

As for using the actions of a single Welshman to claim that there is a history of animosity between the nations of Wales and Ireland.......!

Without being a pain, can you avoid doing 6 responses in a row as well. Otherwise you may as well be having a thread discussion with yourself

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Fact remains that there was nothing in the article Partizan posted that in any way asserted that the former Yugoslavia should've existed or been maintained, so it's difficult to see what either your or his point is here.

As for using the actions of a single Welshman to claim that there is a history of animosity between the nations of Wales and Ireland.......

Without being a pain, can you avoid doing 6 responses in a row as well. Otherwise you may as well be having a thread discussion with yourself

I was trying to avoid giving you a long winded rambling answer which addressed several different points at once. If that is however what you would prefer in future that is what you will get !

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Not perhaps, or even technically CTID. The Isle of Man is simply not part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Full stop.

Falkland Islanders use British passports, but that don't make them part of the UK...

Well in the case of Las Malvinas they are on the Argentinian Continental Shelf

**CollegeTillIDie** · 26/05/2006, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

The elements within the former Yugoslavia were indeed united by shared history and ethnicity. But the things that divided them were of bigger importance - namely religion and language. When 2 parts of the same ethnic group living side by side use completely different alphabets for the same language, that begins to give you an idea of how different they are in terms of history, allegiances and world view, and how complex the situation is.

Well that too is changing as in Belgrade and major cities they have for some time used the Roman alphabet ( Slavonic variant ) for Serbian as used in Zagreb and other parts of Croatia, especially in printed matter such as Newspapers magazines etc. I have visited Serbia three times. I was in Nis in the South on two occasions where most printed matter was in Cyrillic but even here shopfronts etc were beginning to use Roman alphabet.

I for one am glad that Yugoslavia no longer exists. It was always going to be this way, so there is no RIP as far as I am concerned. Big powers need to stop forcing their own unworkable and unrealistic solutions upon peoples. A lot of countries are thoroughly artifical entities that don't reflect the genuine nature of on-the-ground ethnic, religious or linguistic groups, or fundamental politics. Countries do not have any form of sacred right or need to exist - if they don't work, we should not be afraid of recognising that and letting them change.

Your opinion and my opinion on whether Yugoslavia existence was a good thing or not is not the issue or indeed of any real importance. The fact remains most Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians I have met regretted it's passing and indeed some of the Bosnians I have encountered are not so sure the manner of their departure was handled at all correctly.
but at the end of the day even if you and me and all 21 million former Yugoslav citizens wanted it back in the morning, it is gone and gone for all time I would expect.

And by the same tokens a lot of countries especially outside Europe are random lines drawn on a map by colonial powers several centuries ago in some instances.

Even in 'established' areas like Western Europe we have such situations - i wouldn't be at all surprised if Belgium didn't last another 25 years in its current form, or of Spain fragmented partially in the next 50 years.

Spain will lose some of it's land as will SW France is Euskadi ever becomes independent and that is a much more economically viable entity to give an example than Crna Gora could ever be. Catalunya enjoys an unparalleled prosperity being with the Spanish federation. So for now they will hang on as an autonomous entity.Besides where will they get an opportunity to vent their anti Madrid spleen if they lose out on derby matches with Real in an independent Catalan Liga ?

As regards Belgium I once read an article in my studies about it written by a historian and political scientist. He quoted a local citizen who said the only things holding the country together are 1/ It's common religion 2/ It's respect for the Royal Family 3/ The Flemings distaste for being the butt of jokes told by Dutch people about them. 4/ The Walloons distaste for being the butt of jokes told by French people about them 5/ Their united miffed ness at not getting credit for inventing French Fries , having the best chocolate on earth or some of the best beer.

These are one could argue 5 tenuous things which unite the Belgians. But any Belgian I have met agrees that is what keeps them together.
Belgium has two departments for every one we have in Ireland for example
A Flemish speaking one and a French speaking one. It seems to work in spite of itself.

**R�iteoir** · 27/05/2006, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Independence for Cork!!!

Thing is though - if that happened - Dublin would be the capital of the new Republic

**Green Tribe** · 28/05/2006, 11:45 AM

Don't know if this was posted but how is it going to affect the draw for Euro 2008?

**Poor Student** · 28/05/2006, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Green Tribe

Don't know if this was posted but how is it going to affect the draw for Euro 2008?

Cork will probably be looking for a strong part of our seeding on the basis of Roy Keane.

**lopez** · 29/05/2006, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

... but at the end of the day even if you and me and all 21 million former Yugoslav citizens wanted it back in the morning, it is gone and gone for all time I would expect...

Yugoslavia could once more exist if cantons or whole republics pushed for such an accomodation. UN policy from WW2 has been to keep nation states intact. They've broken the rules in Yugoslavia (for obvious reasons) so there is justification for further redrawing of borders. As the vote proved, despite a nice bribe just over 50% of the population of Montenegro voted for 'independence'. Macedonia's vote for independence was however considerably larger at 71% with the Albanians boycotting the election, while Bosnia would have stayed in the FYR but for the aggressiveness of Serbia. Possibly, if Milosevic had tried to negotiate his way out of Yugoslavia at a reasonable pace, leaving the heavy handedness as a last resort to protect the Serbian majority districts bordering Serbia, the FYR may still be with us.

**Castle Barracks** · 30/05/2006, 2:10 PM

Lloyd George was acting for the British state,not a Welsh one!The reason that Wales just about voted for an assembly was that most of the people who reside here are probably not Welsh!A lot of people from my neck of the woods have a lot of admiration of the nationalist cause,and constantly try to compare traditions between the two countries!How can there be animosity between the two greatest nations on earth!