Champions League Final

**geysir** · 19/05/2006, 2:05 AM

Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

And when I was in the Da Luz on the 28th March, I saw Benfica give them a lashing too (indeed it was only the denial of a clear handball that saw Benfica escape with a draw).

Isn't that the game where Barca had 60% of the possession and missed a string of golden chances which miraculously left Benfica with a chance to grab a winner in the last minutes. Some escape.

**Marked Man** · 19/05/2006, 2:49 AM

Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

It's the 101 other incidents that shaped the game that is the issue. The constant refusal to book and to send off, if he was to interpret the laws as he did with the Lehmann incident, did shape the game.

You're right, Eboue should have been sent off-- twice. Can't believe the ref let that go.

**Karlos** · 19/05/2006, 4:14 AM

Originally Posted by Marked Man

You're right, Eboue should have been sent off-- twice. Can't believe the ref let that go.

Eboue should have gone, no doubt. Puyol & Marquez should have also under the current laws of the game. I can't beleive the ref missed that and I'm sure you can't either. Even if the referee takes the easy option out, you'd expect a booking at the very least. Despite what some people are suggesting, nobody will convince me that playing against Henry on a booking for over 60 minutes isn't a completly different scenario than playing against him without one.

I'm all for referee's being regimental & applying the letter of the law as you so obviously are too.......as long as they apply it for everyone of course. That's what I openly hoped for on this very thread before the game started and sadly that wasn't what we got in my opinion. Lehmann issue was spot on, everything else including the free awarded to Asrenal before the goal, shocking.

There's no sour grapes towards Barca. Beating Arsenal, Chelsea & Milan makes them worthy champions.

**Karlos** · 19/05/2006, 4:42 AM

Originally Posted by Donegalcelt

Also interesting. Jens Lehmann didn't concede a goal in the Champions League all season. Didn't play v Ajax or Thun. Still, not much consolation. Found it hard to believe that he's also the first ever sending off in the final

An interesting issue alright. Lehmann actually been superb all season both in Europe & the League. I'd him nominated as Arsenal's Player of the Year by January such where the nature of his performances. Sad way to end such a great run but he had to go. He's been very gracious in admitting that himself.

As a side point, I would also like to credit the whole defence for having the longest defensive record in European Cup history. Truely a huge feat for a defence so often critiscised.

**LFC in Exile** · 19/05/2006, 7:44 AM

Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

Eboue should have gone, no doubt. Puyol & Marquez should have also under the current laws of the game. I can't beleive the ref missed that and I'm sure you can't either.

So the problem is not sending Lehman off it is not sending 3 other players off as well. 9 v 9 and I wonder whether the referee would have been criticised then for ruining the game 'as a spectacle'.

**LFC in Exile** · 19/05/2006, 7:56 AM

By the way the laws state a player is sent off if he (among other things):

4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity
by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a
goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
5. denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving
towards the player�s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick
or a penalty kick

Note it says opponent, and not team as in number 4. Lehman denied Eto'o an obvious goalscoring opportunity. Even if play had been allowed to run on (as it should have been) and Giuly scored, Lehman still had to walk.

The reaction of the tv commentators about the referee ruining the game is ridiculous. It is not the referee's job to make the game entertaining (using this logic players like Ronaldinho should be exempt from ever being sent off), it is his or her job to enforce the rules.

Arsenal also moaning about the offside equaliser. I think Eto'o was probably offisde when Larsson touched the ball. But from the assistant referee's view it was impossible to know if Larsson touched it. Eto'o was onside when the ball was played through and Larsson's touch only slightly changed the direction of the ball. I didn't know he had touched it until I saw the replay. So, a bit of common sense must prevail there.

There is a lot of blame put on the ref for being inconsistent - and overall he had a poor game - but the players must also take a lot of blame. The amount of diving and similar cheating was crazy (and it led to Arsenal's goal). Henry got booked because of Bommel's reaction. It was not an easy game to ref IMO.

**Stuttgart88** · 19/05/2006, 8:13 AM

I actually think he was right not to send Eboue off. A yellow and a strong warning were what were warranted in the context of the moment. The rule book doesn't legislate for context, yet all the good referees get acclaim for their handling of certain situations. So much of a referee's performance depends on subjective decision-making. I also agree totally that Van Bommel's(?) reaction to Henry's tackle made it very difficult for the ref.

Lehmann's comment about two very good sides playing at a far higher tempo than the games is played in Norway was fair, but more blame should be apportioned UEFA's way for the appointment. The referee was very fair in his post-match comments and I commend him for it. Arsenal's only genuine complaint about Eto's goal should be that it'd usually be given offside, wrongly, but that's the way it usually works. Puyol & Marquez should have been booked & I think that did have some effect. That IS a genuine complaint.

I thought Arsenal were great on the night, but I'd like to see Arsenal being big enough to acknowledge that their own failings (missed chances, Eboue failing to pick up Eto, goalie being beaten twice at near post, Lehmann's error of judgment) were the principal reasons for losing the final. Just like the famous defeat at Old Trafford where Graham Poll had an absolute shocker of a game allowing the Neville brothers and Van Nistelrooy to kick lumps out of Arsenal without punishment and missing Rooney's dive, Arsenal ignored the failings on their own doorstep - they lost the game because despite having overcome Poll's lenient tolerance of MUFC's tactics, their passing & ball retention went to pot completely in the 15 mins before MUFC scored, Vieira & Campbell being most culpable. If Arsenal just move on & get on with it they'll have a lot more respect from neutrals.

**OwlsFan** · 19/05/2006, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I thought Henry's comments about Ronaldinho were interesting - hardly the comments of someone on his way to Barca. Strangely, if Arsenal had won I'd say he would definitely have left the club. Now he has unfinished business and there's a greater possibility of him staying.

Looks as if I was correct and that they'll be announcing today that he'll be signing on again for a few more years for the Gooners.

**geysir** · 19/05/2006, 9:42 AM

I am a bit fed up with all the critique of the referee. Up to the present day its still an exception that a player gets booked for diving. No referee would have booked Eboue (on one yellow) EVEN if they saw clearly that he dived.
The linesman flagged. It appeared an obvious enough foul.
But still Arsenal were left with the hard work to get the goal, with a brilliantly executed free kick/header

**Dodge** · 19/05/2006, 9:51 AM

It appeared an obvious dive to me...

Either way it doesn't really matter. Had to laugh at poor little Thierry moaning about centre halves treating him roughly. Thats their job...

**Stuttgart88** · 19/05/2006, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by geysir

with a brilliantly executed free kick/header

a relative rarity for Arsenal, yet something Chelsea does as a matter of course.

**dfx-** · 19/05/2006, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Barca are far from invincable, Atletico totally outfoxed them twice this season.

One team beat them twice. Atletico are quite a poor team. So why couldn't anyone else.....?

They are a good side, but a decent manager, with a fairly good squad, can come up with a plan to smother them.

*attempts to change the record again*

The same old stuff about Barcelona traipsed out every year...I suppose their defence is dodgy as well..?

Runaway Spanish league (commonly regarded as the best league in the world)champions 2 years in a row and now convincing European Champions...and yet they are only 'a good team'

**NeilMcD** · 19/05/2006, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I
I thought Arsenal were great on the night, but I'd like to see Arsenal being big enough to acknowledge that their own failings (missed chances, Eboue failing to pick up Eto, goalie being beaten twice at near post, Lehmann's error of judgment) were the principal reasons for losing the final. Just like the famous defeat at Old Trafford where Graham Poll had an absolute shocker of a game allowing the Neville brothers and Van Nistelrooy to kick lumps out of Arsenal without punishment and missing Rooney's dive, Arsenal ignored the failings on their own doorstep - they lost the game because despite having overcome Poll's lenient tolerance of MUFC's tactics, their passing & ball retention went to pot completely in the 15 mins before MUFC scored, Vieira & Campbell being most culpable. If Arsenal just move on & get on with it they'll have a lot more respect from neutrals.

Well said Stuttgart, I find it an annoying trait of such a side that likes to play lovely football. When they get beaten it seems that they use every other reason under the sun other than the fact that they were beaten fair and square by the better team. I think this cost them when they got beaten and Old Trafford in that they nevre got over that defeat for a long time. I think if they had of accepted it more graciously than they may have gone on a better run.

**NeilMcD** · 19/05/2006, 10:54 AM

[QUOTE=KarlosIRL]But Neil, nobody including the Arsenal players are blaming the ref for the sending off. I don't how many times I have to say it, but he got it right.

QUOTE]

I think in fact you are wrong there, some people have blamed the ref for the incident, one being Sepp Blatter, others being Andy Gray. I blame him also for not letting the play go on give the goal and send Lehmann off. In my view that would have been the correct decision to give.

**Roadend** · 19/05/2006, 10:56 AM

I believe anything Andy Gray says should be taken with a pinch of salt.

**Dodge** · 19/05/2006, 10:58 AM

Listened to a bit of his commentary, and even knowing the outcome and what was happening at that time, he was still totally unbearable

**Karlos** · 19/05/2006, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I think in fact you are wrong there, some people have blamed the ref for the incident, one being Sepp Blatter, others being Andy Gray. I blame him also for not letting the play go on give the goal and send Lehmann off. In my view that would have been the correct decision to give.

I'll rephrase then - no one at Arsenal FC is blaming the referee for the sending off. Doesn't stop people making ridicuolous claims about Arsenal being sore losers. The Henry interview that some people are referencing to the goalkeeper incident and the loss is available on Sky Sports website for all to see.

The comments Henry made on the overall performance of the referee were absolutely spot on. People must have missed or refused to hear Henry say 'that the referee got the sending off right' and that he didn't think he 'cost us the game'. It was his performance overall that was questioned and not the twisted thoughts the likes of Harry Harris would have people believe. The misquoting of what Henry actually said is unbelievable.

Of seven issues for mandatory yellow cards in the laws of the game he missed at least 5 of them on a regualr basis. As just one example people have tried to brush off the likes of the Edmilison issue which is there in black and white as a cautionable offence that was never followed. Apply the laws fairly for everyone and there can be no complaints

You can't demand one action and then hide away from all the others as most people seem to be doing

By beliving he still got the call wrong on the Lehmann incident you only further the case of why such ineptness was allowed in a major final. The fact the man himself has changed his view on the incident and what he would have done again speaks volumes on his own performance.

**Dodge** · 19/05/2006, 11:25 AM

Not being funnt but if you were to analyse every game and give yellow cards for every bookable incident, I'd be fairly sure you'd be left with 7 v 7 and those 14 booked. Wednesday game was no different. I think Reitoir's review of the performance earlier in this thread is excellent and fairly informative

**NeilMcD** · 19/05/2006, 11:26 AM

The ref had a stinker in my view and he was not up to handling the game. However I think if you lose a game you are better off not even mentioning the ref or his performance.

Henry should have given an interview saying that Arsenal were fantastic he was proud of his players for playing so well with ten men and that Barca are a great club and congratulations to them End of story.

Instead he wanted to ramble on for about 5 minutes about the ref and then the performance of two of the players for Barca Ronaldinhio and Eto and having a go at their personality was bang out of order in my view and I expected more from him. He should realise that ETO scored a goal and was involved in the major incident of the game which was set up by Ronaldinhio.

Also Arsenal FC have given out about the First goal and said it was offside. This despite the fact you saw on Sky on Wed night it was onside and doubt should always favour the attacking. Paul Merson and Guillit and Redknapp all said it was onside.

The point is Arsenal should not even be chatting about the referee in my view as it just comes across as sour grapes.

**Karlos** · 19/05/2006, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Not being funnt but if you were to analyse every game and give yellow cards for every bookable incident, I'd be fairly sure you'd be left with 7 v 7 and those 14 booked. Wednesday game was no different. I think Reitoir's review of the performance earlier in this thread is excellent and fairly informative

You are right of course but the laws are the laws. Many of them I don't agree with. The referee gets paid to use them as directed and even more so when such a prize is at stake. Sadly he didn't. Both teams I felt had huge grounds for complaint on that score.