League Winner - CL place Playoff

**pineapple stu** · 12/05/2006, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Baker

The Dutch are trying something like that this year with four clubs playing off for their final champions league spot.

They've done far more than that. Did an article on it for the recent STIG, and I'm still not entirely sure how it works.

Second to fifth play-off for the second CL spot (winners get in obviously). Loser of the final gets a UEFA sport. Losers of the first games (i.e. 2 v 5 and 3 v 4) play-off for the other UEFA spot.

Sixth to ninth play-off for another UEFA Cup spot. Winners, I think, play-off against the CL play-off losers for the spot. The losers of the final go into the InterToto Cup, while the losers of the first games play-off to meet the InterToto play-off winners. This is tenth to 13th - same format, with the winners meeting the UEFA losers.

In the Second Division, if you get the best record in the league over the course of rounds 1-6, 7-12, 13-18, 19-24, 25-30 or 31-36, you're automatically entered into the first stage of the promotion play-off, unless you win the league (automatic promotion) or come second to fifth (get into the second stage of the play-offs). The teams in the first play-off bit play each other and the winners progress to the second stage, where they meet second to fifth in the division. The winners from that go on to the third section, where they meet 16th and 17th in the top flight, with the winners competing in the top flight next season. This actually means you can get promoted and relegated in the same season.

I think that is about the ultimate extension of the play-off system. You have to say it devalues the league utterly. You could finish second in the league and not get into Europe, while 13th could get the InterToto. You could be relegated and promoted from the second division in the same season. You could win your first six games, fall away and it doesn't matter because you're already in the promotion/relegation play-offs.

A play-off to decide the league winners wouldn't be as bad as that, but the same devaluing idea holds. If you win the league, you're in the CL - end of story. I don't really mind play-offs to decide promotion/relegation like in England or here (and preferably the system with three First Division teams and one Premier team). Other than that, no.

**DmanDmythDledge** · 12/05/2006, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

They've done far more than that. Did an article on it for the recent STIG, and I'm still not entirely sure how it works.

Second to fifth play-off for the second CL spot (winners get in obviously). Loser of the final gets a UEFA sport. Losers of the first games (i.e. 2 v 5 and 3 v 4) play-off for the other UEFA spot.

Sixth to ninth play-off for another UEFA Cup spot. Winners, I think, play-off against the CL play-off losers for the spot. The losers of the final go into the InterToto Cup, while the losers of the first games play-off to meet the InterToto play-off winners. This is tenth to 13th - same format, with the winners meeting the UEFA losers.

In the Second Division, if you get the best record in the league over the course of rounds 1-6, 7-12, 13-18, 19-24, 25-30 or 31-36, you're automatically entered into the first stage of the promotion play-off, unless you win the league (automatic promotion) or come second to fifth (get into the second stage of the play-offs). The teams in the first play-off bit play each other and the winners progress to the second stage, where they meet second to fifth in the division. The winners from that go on to the third section, where they meet 16th and 17th in the top flight, with the winners competing in the top flight next season. This actually means you can get promoted and relegated in the same season.

I think that is about the ultimate extension of the play-off system. You have to say it devalues the league utterly. You could finish second in the league and not get into Europe, while 13th could get the InterToto. You could be relegated and promoted from the second division in the same season. You could win your first six games, fall away and it doesn't matter because you're already in the promotion/relegation play-offs.

A play-off to decide the league winners wouldn't be as bad as that, but the same devaluing idea holds. If you win the league, you're in the CL - end of story. I don't really mind play-offs to decide promotion/relegation like in England or here (and preferably the system with three First Division teams and one Premier team). Other than that, no.

I've never been more confused. That is the biggest load of sh!t I've ever heard.

**pete** · 12/05/2006, 12:57 PM

I don't agree with playoff system but just opened for discussion. I will makew case for it for discussion purposes.

Tradition is great but ultimately its a financial decision. The question really is what would the league gain & what would it lose?

November is a quiet sports month & imagine if had the interest from Cork City v Derry City last season multiplied by 3 games? Lets say for argument say 8000 people watch Cork City v Drogs, Derry City v Shels has 6000 & Cork City v Derry City in Lansdowne gets 20,000...

Irish people love the big event as evidenced by Heineken Cup & GAA Championship games.

**pineapple stu** · 12/05/2006, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Tradition is great but ultimately it's a financial decision

I disagree entirely. The day sport is ruled by money and not tradition and common sense is the day the fourth-placed team from a league can win the European Cup.

**LeixlipRed** · 12/05/2006, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

They've done far more than that. Did an article on it for the recent STIG, and I'm still not entirely sure how it works.

Second to fifth play-off for the second CL spot (winners get in obviously). Loser of the final gets a UEFA sport. Losers of the first games (i.e. 2 v 5 and 3 v 4) play-off for the other UEFA spot.

Sixth to ninth play-off for another UEFA Cup spot. Winners, I think, play-off against the CL play-off losers for the spot. The losers of the final go into the InterToto Cup, while the losers of the first games play-off to meet the InterToto play-off winners. This is tenth to 13th - same format, with the winners meeting the UEFA losers.

In the Second Division, if you get the best record in the league over the course of rounds 1-6, 7-12, 13-18, 19-24, 25-30 or 31-36, you're automatically entered into the first stage of the promotion play-off, unless you win the league (automatic promotion) or come second to fifth (get into the second stage of the play-offs). The teams in the first play-off bit play each other and the winners progress to the second stage, where they meet second to fifth in the division. The winners from that go on to the third section, where they meet 16th and 17th in the top flight, with the winners competing in the top flight next season. This actually means you can get promoted and relegated in the same season.

I think that is about the ultimate extension of the play-off system. You have to say it devalues the league utterly. You could finish second in the league and not get into Europe, while 13th could get the InterToto. You could be relegated and promoted from the second division in the same season. You could win your first six games, fall away and it doesn't matter because you're already in the promotion/relegation play-offs.

A play-off to decide the league winners wouldn't be as bad as that, but the same devaluing idea holds. If you win the league, you're in the CL - end of story. I don't really mind play-offs to decide promotion/relegation like in England or here (and preferably the system with three First Division teams and one Premier team). Other than that, no.

Does anyone elses head hurt after reading that??? what a pile of crap

**Block G Raptor** · 12/05/2006, 1:26 PM

Think about this. The Top Four playing off for the Title . Four of the Bottom 5 Playing off to avoid Relegation. Live on TV lots of Hype/Advertisement. all the Glitz, fireworks etc. for the respective finals. It's all about gimmicks and maybe the eL needs a gimmick to get the event junkies interested. What harm can it do really

**LeixlipRed** · 12/05/2006, 1:41 PM

well it could completely devalue the league for one

**pete** · 12/05/2006, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by LeixlipRed

well it could completely devalue the league for one

It doesn't seem to affect other sports. Has the eL fallen behind because it is victim to tradition. Tradition is what has some people saying Dalymount should not be sold but at the same time those people won't attend games there as poor facilities.

It might allow a 16 team Premier with 30 regular games?

**pineapple stu** · 12/05/2006, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Has the eL fallen behind because it is victim to tradition.

Has the Premiership fallen behind because of similar tradition? Or most of the leagues around the world where play-offs don't decide the league winners?

**Bald Student** · 12/05/2006, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by pete

It doesn't seem to affect other sports.

Can you give an example? The only one I can think of is club rugby.

What would last year's league have been like if there was no difference between finishing first or fourth?

**Dodge** · 12/05/2006, 3:58 PM

Al US Sports, All Australian sports, Rugby League and Union in Britain...

The only place where a round robin league decides anything is in football. Honestly this could be a very marketable thing. Something the league obviously isn't

**pete** · 12/05/2006, 4:24 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

The only place where a round robin league decides anything is in football. Honestly this could be a very marketable thing. Something the league obviously isn't

Maybe have playoff for Setanta Cup places or InterToto or something as trial run. 3rd-7th have playoff for the Inter Toto as experiment? maybe just keep 1 Setanta Cup place open for the playoffs & give boost the midtable end of season battle. Actual i like the last suggestion, better patent it.

**Dodge** · 12/05/2006, 4:27 PM

nah, play offs for 3rd place are always ****e... It'll only owrk if they actually mean something...

**pete** · 12/05/2006, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

nah, play offs for 3rd place are always ****e... It'll only owrk if they actually mean something...

I mean 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th place teams have a playoff for the last Setanta Cup place unless they have already qualified through the FAI or league Cup. I see no downside...

**Bald Student** · 12/05/2006, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Maybe have playoff for Setanta Cup places or InterToto or something as trial run. 3rd-7th have playoff for the Inter Toto as experiment? maybe just keep 1 Setanta Cup place open for the playoffs & give boost the midtable end of season battle. Actual i like the last suggestion, better patent it.

That sounds like a good idea. Maybe have the final of the playoff as a double header with the FAI Cup final?

**Poor Student** · 12/05/2006, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by pete

I mean 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th place teams have a playoff for the last Setanta Cup place unless they have already qualified through the FAI or league Cup. I see no downside...

I made a post suggesting this before about a playoff for the Inter Toto spot. It would extend meaning to the midtable and see that there's very few meaningless games in the league. Also, given that it's only the Inter Toto, having a lower ranked club in Europe would not damage the co-efficient.

**Dodge** · 12/05/2006, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by pete

I mean 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th place teams have a playoff for the last Setanta Cup place unless they have already qualified through the FAI or league Cup. I see no downside...

No downside but if we'ere talking Marketing, 4th v 5th in a12 team league isn't great...

**pete** · 12/05/2006, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

No downside but if we'ere talking Marketing, 4th v 5th in a12 team league isn't great...

Marketing is all about image.

**thomas** · 14/05/2006, 4:36 AM

Exactly, all about image.

The standard of aussie football is diabolical yet they attracted 42,000 to their first playoff final. Previously league clubs were lucky to get 1,500 to a game.

Its all about the market we are in. The play off system is best suited to getting punters through the stiles.

**anto eile** · 17/05/2006, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by BohsBohsBohs

I think that everybody bar the G14 agrees with that. The Champions League is nowhere near as special as it was 10 years ago. I am sure that UEFA and the Football Associations around Europe would love to see a return to the structure of the early 90s, but unfortunately the G14 hold all the cards.

When only the Champions were allowed to enter the Champions League was much more prestigous, the UEFA Cup was much more prestigous, the Cup Winners Cup had a purpose, the Intertoto would have been taken seriously, and domestic leagues and Cups around Europe would have been more prestigous also.

The g14 have taken a lot of the gloss off of World Fooball in my opinion.

agree with that.
id love to see uefa/fifa/individual clubs stand up to the g14.
the only g14 club i could respect is Barcelona.owned by fans run by fans for the fans.(im aware madrid are the same but i dont like them)

dont think playoffs are a good idea in the EL.they did playoffs for european places in Holland this year,ajax finished 4th, 14 points behind 2nd placed team,but won the playoff and got the champions league spot. joke