Donegal Celtic promoted

[dcfcsteve]

Hmm.....I've met Derry fans at Ireland games, who have no problem with waving a Tricolour or similar. Perhaps they keep this in a cupboard for all the Derry club matches.

Which is exactly what Speranza was saying. Keep up.....

Though I do respect that DC don't have an especially 'republican image'.

Which suggests that you think we do have at least somewhat of a Republican image. Care to explain how ? Has the red and white flag recently replaced the Starry Plough as a symbol of nationalism in Ireland.....

[dcfcsteve]

Surely the fact that we abuse Derry Fans as well as Glens fans proves that we arent discriminatory about who we abuse -

Not at all. Your fans abused Glens fans because of their religion. Your fans then abused and attacked Derry fans because we didn't want to join you in abusing Glens fans for that reason. There is a common thread of sectarianism behind the action of Cliftonville fans in both of these actions.

There are about 20 C'ville fans who support Derry as their EL team and a similar number who support Rovers as their EL team. The other 300 regulars at Solitude on a Saturday have no interest in either team. Nobody seems to have a problem with this except you.

If you read the Derry forum regularly you will find a lot of fans p"ssed off with the Cliftonville fans - primarily the ones who come to the Brandywell to follow Shamrock Rovers.

The few times we've seen trouble in the Brandywell, invariably Cliftonville fans have been involved in one guise or another. This goes back as far as the friendly we played against you in 1986, which was my first experience of some of your fans. On that instance, your fans started the game on one side of the ground with your tricolours and your rebel songs. At half time, most of them travelled to the other side of the ground to join the City fans in The Jungle. You started singing your rebel/sectarian songs again, and when our fans refused to join in yees got annoyed and started throwing fists around. Fast forward 20 years later and unbelievably the same sh!t is happening !

So you will find more than Speranza with a problem I'm afraid.

Not perfect - but Cliftonville fans have come a long way in the past 20 years and are now made welcome in most away social clubs in the IL.

Great news, though still a long way to go. Shocked to hear you doling out criticism of Linfield fans though, given the reputation your own fans developed over the years.

Speranza - have a joint and chill... you come across as a very angry young man.

And you come across as being in denial...

[dcfcsteve]

Not especially. Though this assumes that all DC fans have no opinions re.the North & why do they have a Tricolour with 'Derry City' written on it? Cant believe this only ever sees the light of day, just for Ireland games.

I think you'll find, Gonzo, that in any relatively well-educated, free-thinking society most people have views and opniinons on a lot of things. Particularly issues related to their own communities.

What have the political views of individual supporters got to do with the piolitical slant of a club ? Unlike you, most football supporters seem able to separate their political opinions form their sporting allegiances. If the majority of Drogheda fans, for example, had voted for Drogheda TD Fergus O'Dowd a the last election - would that therefore make Drogheda United and its supporters some sort of Fine Gael club ??

A lot of Derry people would have a strong opinion on whether the ratepayers should continue to fund the local airport, and on the proposal for super-councils for the region. Does that therefore make DCFC an anti-airport and pro or anti decentralisation/regional amalgamation team ??

More generally speaking - you'll probably find that the people of Derry have a higher-propensity towards left-of-centre and left-wing politics than your average city in Ireland. Does this therefore make DCFC a left-wing team ?

You're talking out of yer arse here Gonzo. To describe Derry City FC or its fans as Republican is so childishly simplistic that it's embarassing. We're no more Republican than, for example, Ballymena are Loyalist - and in-fact, as you're more likely to find national flags on display at a Ballymena game, we're even less so.

As for the one and only tricolour in existnce with a Derry badge on it - care to tell me when you last saw it at a club game ? It was that bloody long ago, I doubt many Derry fans could shed light on this for you either.

If a solitary flag that used to appear at games is all the evidence you have or need to tar a whole club and its fans as 'Republican' (note : not nationalist) then you need to take a long, long look at yourself fella.....

[Dassa]

For me a club can have no religion political slant etc. if people who support that team have an opinion on something and this opinion is the majority among the fan base this still cant be associated as a club stance. I believe this is the way it should be.

[Speranza]

Although Steve has pretty much summed up my feelings I feel the need to say...

And as I have said to you many times, just because you decide not to do it does not make it wrong if someone else does it. That is their choice, there are too many hang ups over flags. If someone is offended by a tricolour or a Union Flag at a football match then I would suggest that it is they who have the problem and not the person with the flag.

This would be perfect in a Utopia but Northern Ireland is anything but. Although you may not be directly offended by a flag it creates an automatic barrier between you and opposition fans, why create hostility? We know the political opinions of Linfield/Cliftonville fans well enough without the need for flags and songs.

Speranza - have a joint and chill... you come across as a very angry young man.

Not angry but frustrated that Belfast scrotes created a situation in the Oval where fathers were getting punched in front of their children and chased around the away enclosure at the end. All of this because they voiced (very strongly) their disgust at songs such as "One Sean kelly" and other not very original or football related chants.

[David]

Although Steve has pretty much summed up my feelings I feel the need to say...



This would be perfect in a Utopia but Northern Ireland is anything but. Although you may not be directly offended by a flag it creates an automatic barrier between you and opposition fans, why create hostility? We know the political opinions of Linfield/Cliftonville fans well enough without the need for flags and songs.

But I repeat that just because you personally disagree with something that does not make it wrong.

[dcfcsteve]

But I repeat that just because you personally disagree with something that does not make it wrong.

Doesn't necessarily make it not right either

Just because you personally disagree with his personal view, doesn't necessarily make you right !

[dcfcsteve]

Apart from the fact yer being overly pedantic/sensitive, the fact is I've met enough Derry City fans over the years to know they have largely nationalist/republican sympathies, at the very least.

Whoopee-do - what's tomorrow's staggering revelationn: that Linfield fans have largely Unionist/Loyalist sympathies....?

Of course Derry fans have views on the political direction of where we live ! Why the fcuk shouldn't we ?!?! Stop trying to use this obvious fact against us ! I would say the vast majority of people in the Republic would have nationalist sympathies. So fcuking what ?? Why don't you go badger fans of kildare County or UCD over this then ??

Unlike people like you, who seem unwilling or unable to separate politics from football - we leave issues that at the gate when we enter the Brandywell. Hence why we have no problem clapping Glens or Blues fans. Hence why we can travel to Windsor in large numbers without a single 'political' flag or symbol on display, or song being song. Hence why we sing solely about Derry City FC, and not irelevant issues like the piolitics of the wider society.

Shels fans went to Windsor in much smaller numbers, but had tricolours on displays and tried to goad the Blues fans - why aren't you trying to put the boot into them ?

You're being a complete prik about this Gonzo - you really are.

However you haven't answered why there's a Derry flag at Ireland games, which seems to be kept exclusively for this? Yeah, right.

More to the point - you haven't answered my question of if and when you saw it at a Derry game. If you've only seen it at Ireland games then that pretty much supports what the Derry fans have been saying on here, and contradicts everything you've been saying!

& as yer Linfield man says, just because you don't agree; doesn't make it 'wrong'.

And as I said, doesn't mean it's not right either...

[dcfcsteve]

Good to see the infamous 'Ulster moral high ground' has pervaded all corners of the 6 counties.
Next time I meet Derry fans(or for that matter anyone from the City), I'll remind them they're not to express any form of nationalism at any club game, coz' you say so. & that 'politics of the wider society' is irrelevant.

I'm sure they'll all 'agree'.

I'm sure they will too - and that they'll be keen to talk football, whilst you'll be the only one looking like a dick trying to bring politics into City games.

Why are you being such a tw at about this Gonzo ? Grow the feck up before you embarass yourself any more - it's painful to watch.....

[David]

Doesn't necessarily make it not right either

Just because you personally disagree with his personal view, doesn't necessarily make you right !

My exact point. What gives anyone on here the right to decide what is right and what is wrong?

[dcfcsteve]

My exact point. What gives anyone on here the right to decide what is right and what is wrong?

Common sense does David.

You seem unable to de-tangle the concept of 'wrong' from the concepts of illegality or inappropriateness.

For example - singing pro-Sinn Fein chants at a football match wouldn't be illegal. But it would be completely and utterly inappropriate, and considered by most people to also be 'wrong'. If only morally, and in terms of its impact upon relationships in northern ireland. I'm sure you'd have a word or two to say about it as well. If not - I certainly would.

So not everything that isn't illegal isn't 'wrong'. Common sense dictates what is - and you know full well that you're in a tiny minority if you feel that jingoistic and triumphal displays of nationality/identity/patriotism (!?) at football games in Northern Ireland are anything other than 'wrong' in the eys of the vast majority of people. And in terms of common sense. Hence why the IFA has been trying to stamp it out at international games. Hence why the majority of people here - and in the Northern Irish media and society - have an issue with it.

[pól-dcfc]

Seriously Gonzo, you're being a total WUM here.

Have you ever been to the Brandywell for a match? In fact have you ever been to a Derry match at all? I assure you that, whilst almost none of us are apolitical, we leave our views at the door when we go and see City.

I've been going to the Brandywell almost 15 years (with a gap of four years when I got turned by the EPL - thankfully I've rekindled my love for Derry City since that horrendous period), and I've never heard sectarian or political chants, let alone Ireland flags (barring our brief sojourns in Europe).

Get educated on the club and it's supporters before you go spouting off absolute rubbish!

[pól-dcfc]

Also Gonzo, judging on your posting history you appear not to be at all interested in the IL or eL. Go back to your SPL appreciation threads and stop taunting those of us who support our local teams.

[pól-dcfc]

The majority of Derry people, and Derry fans are without doubt overtly political when you meet them in an everyday situation. However as others have tried to tell you, we don't tolerate it in our ground.

[dcfcsteve]

Exactly. But then again if you don't happen to agree with a certain 'Mr.Derry City', doubtless their only apolitical fan, you happen to undergo his own unique form of 'banter'. & he thinks others should 'grow up'.

Personally feel it's largely unrepresentative of that community (I respect the general well-meaning efforts to play down overt nationalism, But it's unrealistic to expect the type of 'Denial' being advocated.), and if he wants to pontificate in such a pompous manner, that's up to him.

I suggest he contacts a local DJ ASAP.............

Gonzo - you really do ned to stop sniffing that glue. None of the above makes any feckin sense !!

What the feck's a local DJ got to do with it ?? Would you like one to call you a taxi.....?

Let this be a warning to us all of the dangers of drugs. And WUM's....

[Speranza]

Exactly. But then again if you don't happen to agree with a certain 'Mr.Derry City', doubtless their only apolitical fan, you happen to undergo his own unique form of 'banter'. & he thinks others should 'grow up'

Did you read the rest of the thread? We aren't apolitical but

we leave issues that at the gate when we enter the Brandywell

Why do think football teams have to politicize (sp?) themsleves? What good does it do to push the obvious leaning of a group of fans down the oppositions throat?

When was the last time you were at the Brandy? You are being told by City fans that there are NO tri-colours on show at matches but still doubt it. You are the one in denial as your argument has so many holes in it.

[pól-dcfc]

politicize (sp?)

Bloody yanks....

It's politicise here.

Anyway, what we've learnt here is that Gonzo is taking the foot.ie tagline a bit too literally - he's talking absolute balls.

[David]

Common sense does David.

You seem unable to de-tangle the concept of 'wrong' from the concepts of illegality or inappropriateness.

For example - singing pro-Sinn Fein chants at a football match wouldn't be illegal. But it would be completely and utterly inappropriate, and considered by most people to also be 'wrong'. If only morally, and in terms of its impact upon relationships in northern ireland. I'm sure you'd have a word or two to say about it as well. If not - I certainly would.

So not everything that isn't illegal isn't 'wrong'. Common sense dictates what is - and you know full well that you're in a tiny minority if you feel that jingoistic and triumphal displays of nationality/identity/patriotism (!?) at football games in Northern Ireland are anything other than 'wrong' in the eys of the vast majority of people. And in terms of common sense. Hence why the IFA has been trying to stamp it out at international games. Hence why the majority of people here - and in the Northern Irish media and society - have an issue with it.

So public opinion now determines what is right and wrong? Maybe we should bring back the death penalty.

[pól-dcfc]

David you know it's not as simple as that. We live in a divided society, and the tribalistic waving of (obviously) inflammatory flags doesn't help on the grand scale of things. It reinforces sectarianism whether you realise it or not.

[David]

David you know it's not as simple as that. We live in a divided society, and the tribalistic waving of (obviously) inflammatory flags doesn't help on the grand scale of things. It reinforces sectarianism whether you realise it or not.

What is inflammatory about a flag? What is wrong with people displaying the flag of their country, be that country the UK or Ireland?