Best English city to live and work in?

[dcfcsteve]

i think he means in terms of size not population.

?????

I'll wager no-one here has a clue of the gross size of either town !

If it was size, then what does the assertion that it is just a sattelite town of Sheffield have to do with it ?

When I posted originally, I was talking in terms of population, so a response regarding size would be irrelevant anyway.

[Gather round]

No, I meant that Rotherham's central business/ downtown area was obviously, for anyone's who's visited, much less significant than Belfast's.

The figure Steve quotes excludes Castlereagh, whose local govt. area boundaries extend almost to Belfast city centre. Other nearby towns- Glengormley, Lisburn, Holywood- are part of the continuous Belfast area. Slightly further afield, Carrick, Bangor and Newtownards are obviously satellite towns to Belfast.

The outlying districts of Rotherham MBC look to Sheffield. Rotherham is basically a bigger equivalent of Lisburn. Which has a bigger population than Derry according to the 2001 census, I believe.

[dcfcsteve]

No, I meant that Rotherham's central business/ downtown area was obviously, for anyone's who's visited, much less significant than Belfast's.

The figure Steve quotes excludes Castlereagh, whose local govt. area boundaries extend almost to Belfast city centre. Other nearby towns- Glengormley, Lisburn, Holywood- are part of the continuous Belfast area. Slightly further afield, Carrick, Bangor and Newtownards are obviously satellite towns to Belfast.

Which is why - if you look at my original note on this - I compared Rotherham to central Belfast......

The outlying districts of Rotherham MBC look to Sheffield. Rotherham is basically a bigger equivalent of Lisburn. Which has a bigger population than Derry according to the 2001 census, I believe.

No. 2001 figure gave Derry population as 83,699 and Lisburn as 71,465.

If we include the Derry suburbs the disparity would be greater. A lot of Lisburn's 'suburbs' would actually be considered part of Belfast - so if taking a wider definiton of both cities, Derry's population would rise more when considering outlying areas.

Though Rotherham is truly a kip.

You know it has to be Nyaw-kassil Dassa.........!

[Gather round]

Steve. NISRA (Govt. quango) quotes the following mid-year population estimates for 2004,

Derry 106,889
Lisburn 110,247

These are for the entire district council areas, but I referred them earlier and quote directly now to show that such figures are misleading. Clearly Derry is more significant as a travel-to-work-and-shop destination, say, than Lisburn. Sprucefield is in Lisburn because it's near Belfast, not because Lisburn is the main market.

You suggested Rotherham was comparable to Belfast city centre. I disagree- the towns may have looked superficially alike in facilities and scale 20 years ago, but they don't now. Belfast's 'centre' has expanded with new shopping and recreational areas reflecting its medium sized city status; Rotherham's hasn't because locals and visitors are happy to shop and eat out in Sheffield, or at Meadowhall (the Sprucefield equivalent).

[Speranza]

Does counter-urbanisation not make Lisburn to Belfast what Tallaght is to Dublin, Drumahoe to Derry e.t.c.

Lisburn is just an over-spill of sensible Belfast people who want to escape from the kip.

[Gather round]

Not really.

Lisburn was a medium-sized town which has grown to meet the nearby city.

Tallaght was (I think) a one-street village in the 1960s before becoming a (badly?) planned, overlarge new town.

Drumahoe was a village which is now an outlying suburb.

Ye know?

[dcfcsteve]

You suggested Rotherham was comparable to Belfast city centre. I disagree- the towns may have looked superficially alike in facilities and scale 20 years ago, but they don't now. Belfast's 'centre' has expanded with new shopping and recreational areas reflecting its medium sized city status; Rotherham's hasn't because locals and visitors are happy to shop and eat out in Sheffield, or at Meadowhall (the Sprucefield equivalent).

I was only suggesting that the population of Rotherham (i.e. it's size) was the same as Central Belfast, which it is.

I take your other points re Derry, Lisburn and Rotherham though.

Glad to see Derry's population finally listed someowhere as over the 100,000 mark ! There's been a feeling in the city for years that the census returns were just not truly reflective of the situation on the ground - as reflected in births, deaths, school figures etc. The census must take a peculiarly narrow definiton of 'Derry City'.

[Plastic Paddy]

The census must take a peculiarly narrow definiton of 'Derry City'.

Co-terminous with the boundaries of Derry City Council. ISTR that the Boundary Commission for NI revised the local government boundaries in the mid-1990s and that Drumahoe was transferred in its entirety into the DCC area - I think it was in Limavady district before that.

Maybe that explains the otherwise statistically significant increase in population. Does this suggestion ring any (local) bells?

PP

[Thunderblaster]

Forget about Belfast, Lisburn, Derry and Drumahoe or Rotherham-the place to be, the town is Liverpool. Class place!!

[dcfcsteve]

Co-terminous with the boundaries of Derry City Council. ISTR that the Boundary Commission for NI revised the local government boundaries in the mid-1990s and that Drumahoe was transferred in its entirety into the DCC area - I think it was in Limavady district before that.

Maybe that explains the otherwise statistically significant increase in population. Does this suggestion ring any (local) bells?

PP

Not really. That would explain any difference between 1991 and 2001 - but notbetween2001 and the 2004 estimate.The 2004 population estimate for the DCC Council area is 106,889. The 2001 census figure for the same area was 90,663. The estimate therefore suggests a whopping 18% increase in the population of the city in only 3 years ! Granted it is only an estimate - but as government funding etc flows on the basis of these estimates, they aren't put together haphazardly.

Now - if there was an economic boom in Derry, then such an increase would be plausible. But the city hasn't had a population-driving boom since the shirt factories in the 1800's. Also - anecdotally, a not insubstantial number of Derry people have moved just over the border to villages and towns in Donegal that are effectively suburbs of the City - without which the 18% estimated increase would be even higher !

What I suspect ahs happened is what there has been a general feeling of in the city for some time - that the census figures ahve been underestimating our population. there is suspicion that the return rate of census forms in Derry is relatively low, as a hangovewr back to the 1980's when Sinn Fein and the IRA were actively and violently opposed to the census, and a census collector was shot dead in the city. If there was a lower than average return rate from households within the city, then the Stats Office should be aware of this. Maybe there was, and hence the large jump in the estimate.

There was analysis done in the Journal (local paper) a few years back of the difference between the 1991 and 2001 census returns. The writer compared the stated increases in population in that decade in the census with the details of all births, deaths, school numbers etc across the same period and found a large discrepancy. Granted, a number of kids born in the hospital, attending local schools etc will not reside in the DCC area, but there was a larger discrepancy from these than you would expect, even after considerign this. The arguement he presented was quite convincing. Maybe the powers thatbe have finally accepted that the population of Derry has been under-sdtated for some time now - hence the 18% increase in only 3 years at a time of no significant economic expansion, and a move of many to areas out-with the city.