Cmon lad open your mincers,the standard on the pitch is nowhere near the English Championship,be realistic.Anyway, one thing I agree with you about is that going live(I go over to Elland Rd alot) is much better than shouting at the screen .So, thats the last I'll say on it as it's going a bit off topic for the thread titleOriginally Posted by NY Hoop
MOT
Doyle goes from Cork City and is the best player in the Championship, how is the standard that different if he was able to make the transition or jump (sic) look so easy. The evidence points that the top teams in the EL are at the level of the teams in the Championship in my view.
In Trap we trust
It looked like a 4-3-3 to me, but with Duff fairly wide. Reid wasn't playing right wing, he was the right hand side of three. Hard to be sure though!
Certainly wasn't playing as a 3-4-3. Kilbane was clearly at left back the entire game up to when Harte came on.
41200 was announced at the game, and that may have been ticket sales rather than actual crowd.
As for the combined FAI Cup attendances, I'll guess 9000. We should have a competition.
Yeah, that's just laughable.Unfortunately peoples perception is one thing due to listening to twits like Naill Quinn tell us what a player Reading made out of Kevin Doyle!!! (what a joke) and the reality is somewhat different.
Last edited by John83; 25/05/2006 at 12:27 PM.
You can't spell failure without FAI
That was an awful game. We should really be beating Chile at home, no doubt about it. However, there are more positives than negatives, I reckon.
What we really need is a defined formation, approach and first 11. Obviously, injuries prevent any team from fielding the same team constantly but we need to figure out the general shape that best suits us for the Euro qualifiers.
Kerr didn't really use the numerous friendlies to experiment with new players, instead choosing them to boost morale, maybe, by beating decent teams in meaningless games. As a result, we carried our obvious problems in midfield and upfront into the games that mattered, where we paid dearly for them. We never found out over the friendlies whether or not McGeady was an option on the wing or how Steven Reid could play in the centre.
At least Stan tried a few things last night and hopefully he keeps it up. We have to figure out by September what our team will look like. Charlton's team had its strength in its consistency - we generally knew our first 11 and they knew each other. At the moment, who is our right full? Who's our right winger? Who is our central midfield pairing? Who is left-full? Who should partner Dunne in defence? Who should play upfront with Keane? Is Doyle up to it? These are questions that need answers quickly. While last night was brutal, hopefully Stan was trying to answer those questions, it certainly seemed like it.
It was 3-4-3 for about the first 20 minutes or so, then Kilbane dropped back to play as an orthodox left-back.
Agree with whoever said it, it was a dumb experiment to go 3 at the back, we'd never play that formation v Germany. I felt sorry for Stephen Kelly making his debut in a defensive system that was unfamiliar to him and his team-mates. All our defenders have been raised on 4 at the back, play it every week, too risky to change the habits of a lifetime for international games.
Fair enough. He wasn't exactly fantastic after switching to a pure right back role either though.
You can't spell failure without FAI
Yeah and how many failed Championship, League 1 and even League 2 players have gone the other way and been a success? Why does everything on this forum have to revert to an EL is better than Championship/League 1 debate? Its pure delusional nonsense to suggest that it's better than the Championship and I have seen plenty of matches in both.
When the EL pushers come out with comments stating otherwise it really does show how biased and unrealistic their opinions are.
The fact is Jason Byrne was in the squad not on merit but only as a lame gesture. The majority of our best players get snatched by Premiership or Championship clubs when they are young so to suggest that what's left behind is better is absolute s**te. Take into account the number of foreign Internationals, former Internationals and former or up and coming (on loan) Premiership players that play in the Championship and any reasonable person must be able to see that your argument is pure b*llox. Finally look at the number of players that couldn't make the grade in England (many in lower leagues than the Championship) but have come back to the EL and been a success and that should drive the final nail into the coffin for your argument.
I expect a backlash from the EL lovers here but you haven't a leg to stand on so I don't give a balls. Turn another few threads into the EL is better than the Championship also while your at it.
Last edited by youngirish; 25/05/2006 at 1:01 PM.
Well, here's my tuppence worth on how we played and what who we should play vs Germany:
HOW WE PLAYED (IMO)
Given -Good
--
Kelly -Poor
Breen -Shakey
Dunne -Shakey
Kilbane -OK
--
Miller -Poor
S Reid -Poor, underhit passes all night
O'Shea -Poor, though did have a couple of good passes, will never be a dominant midfielder
Duff -Good, but doesn't cross soon enough
--
Keane -OK
Doyle -Good
Subs:
Harte -OK
Kavanagh -OK
McGeady -Very good, again doesn't cross soon enough
Jason Byrne -Good headers
Andy Reid -can see his class straight away
What we learnt:
-Kelly's not ready yet.
-Breen is on the way out -he's not getting better so it's time to blood a new lad e.g. Paddy McCarthy ( Leicester ).
-Steven Reid is best in Centre midfield
-Duff has no right foot, when he drags the ball back he refuses to cross with his right foot -this needs to be remedied / practised. I also think he is at his most effective when up front as he was at the World Cup in Japan.
-Kevin Doyle is a very good prospect and it's between him and Morrison as to who partners Keane.
-Jason Byrne is worth another look
My starting XI vs Holland:
Subs in parenthesis
GK Given
--
RB Carr
CB Dunne ( Paddy McCarthy )
CB O'Brien
LB Finnan
--
RW Duff
CM Steven Reid ( Kavanagh )
CM Andy Reid
LW McGeady
--
CF Keane
CF Doyle
I had thought of having Harte on the left side of midfield, after all, what do we want from that position ( if we put Duff up front )? Someone who can put in a good cross? I would think Harte can do that, as for all ye who criticize his defending then we needn't worry. He's also a good header of the ball so could nip in for a goal, then there's his free kicks too...........
Mind you I'd create a paradox in having Harte on the left wing and two smallies up front ( Duffer or Keane won't win any headers, neither will McGeady, Andy Reid or Steven Reid if they get forward! ). The fact is that Duff is at his most devastating for Ireland up front ( I've seen him marked out of a game too many times on the wing ) and we need our best players in their most effective positions. The other alternative is to have Duff on the RW and McGeady on the LW, then they can pull the ball back and cross on their strong foot and also cut inside and shoot on their strong foot too ( remember Kennedy's goal vs Yugoslavia? )
Last edited by Shelsman; 25/05/2006 at 1:10 PM.
At the end of the day if people want Ireland to be regularly qualifying for the World Cup and the European Championship we need a strong League of Ireland. The dogs on the street know this. So I can't for the life of me understand why:
1. People in Dublin 12 travel over to see Leeds United on a regular basis and claim to be fans of Irish football.
2. People believe that LOI players shouldn't be considered for the national team.
3. People, Irish "football fans", mock the standard of league football in Ireland without ever attending a LOI match.
4. People benchmark British league football as the standard for the Irish national team.
5. People are experts in highlighting the failings of the International team but are unable to point out where Tolka Park is on a map.
No one said it was better - i was merely reacting to the stupid comment that the eL was "nowhere near" the CCC. Which is incorrect. And you really shouldent refer to people as "eL lovers" i dont consider myself an eL lover. Just a football fan that supports his local team thats all - if half the poeple that went last night supported thier local team i.e. had a real interest in irish football - then we wouldnt be having this debate.
Dreadful performance. It's very annoying to pay to watch people not give a $hit. I think the FAI would be well advised to not schedule matches for this time of year unless we've qualified for something.
O'Shea, Miller, Harte and Kelly were awful. Breen was bad too, Dunne was doing all the defending himself for most of the game with Given stopping whatever he couldn't manage.
I thought McGeady did very little with the ball. His runs looked good but he rarely got the ball into the box. The time he ran the ball out of play after trying to beat one man too many summed it up for me; not the finished article by any means.
Doyle did well up front, is he ahead of Morrison in the pecking order now? I think he offers more. Glancing at the game on TV after, Byrne had some good flick-ons; Keane could have scored from one. Reid did OK in the middle but looked completely lost at right-back. Had we no other options for that position?
Well they didn't look like they wanted Ireland to win anyway so maybe 'disinterested' is also apt!
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
totally agree he was sh!t after he came off
I don't think there has been enough said about Jason Byrne, pleased for him to get a decent enough run out time wise and his solid contribution in the game. We need a player like him on the bench. I wonder why he wasn't used in the last campaign instead of the Doc? Byrne has the ability to head the perfect knockdown, has the skill and muscle to bring the ball down, hold off his opponent and lay the ball off.
Stan made some reference to scope for improvement with his sharpness levels.
I dont think I ever said it was better either. Also I have never really contributed to this debate as I dont have any natural team to support in the EL but go to a few different games around the city. So I would not consider myself as you put it an EL lover. Also where is the fact that he was not in the squad in merit. If its fact find the evidence of it been fact. Its your opinion which is fair enough but dont state it is as fact when its not possible to prove it.
The results in Europe suggest that the EL is improving and I agree in order to have a successful Irish team we have to have a successful league which comes from supporting with both money from the Government Fai and Private Sector and attendance by the Irish Public.
In Trap we trust
Spot on. Youngirish is another one who cant read. NOBODY here said it was better than the championship. I said it was on a par with the championship/league one.
Jason Byrne's appearance was no "lame gesture". Even a well known ignoramus of league football here Mark Lawrenson said that he merited an appearance.
Stick to your own "delusional nonsense" and leave football talk to people who know about it.
KOH
So an ignoramus who knows nothing about EL football said he warranted a game and that's your reason for including him? Good one. As for getting evidence that he didn't merit inclusion who the f**k am I? Inspector Morse? Can you prove that Jupiter revolves around the sun. The theory of relativity.70% of US marriages end in divorce? Doubtful and even if you could why would you take the time to do it?
Sorry NY Hoop you specifically might not have said it was better (my post wasn't about you in particular but it's nice you feel included) but you've stated that you said it was the same which is also rubbish - see the earlier post for the relevant reasons.
Quick lads get on another thread there's an EL is better than Premiership/Championship/World Cup/Olympics/Grand National argument just waiting to happen.
On the standard of the eircom League debate, it's a difficult league to evaluate as there is now such a gap between the top clubs and the strugglers. Last Friday, I saw Drogheda thump Waterford 4-0 in one of the best performances I've seen by an Irish team recently. The pace, skill and physical power with which Drogheda played would, in my view, have been sufficient to beat many Championship teams. However, on the other hand, there is no way on this godly planet that the Blues could currently be described as on a par with any Championship club!!
I always think the best way to judge a league is by it's mid-table teams. For instance, you wouldn't judge Scotland on Celtic's standard or the Dutch league on PSV and Ajax. The quality of La Liga can be seen in that Depor, Atletico or Espanol would be stronger than Charlton, Aston Villa or Everton.
In my opinion, the four Irish clubs who will be competing in Europe this year have real quality and, together, are the best group we've sent into Europe in decades. Any of them could cut it in the Championship. Certain players from Cork, Derry, Drogheda and Shels have every right to be considered for the national squad. I thought Jason Gavin might get a call-up (to me, Breen's inclusion smacked of a personal favour from Staunton to put him in the shop window).
As I said, leagues should be judged by their mid-range teams and I'd see the likes of Pats and Bohs as being around the level of the lower half of League One.
As for Jason Byrne's performance, he did reasonably well and could be a squad option, but probably down the list as 6th or 7th choice striker. He definitely made an impact - winning a couple of headers and eager to show for the ball. I felt he was a bit slow to react to the play at times. A defender nipped in ahead of him for a ball he should have taken in around the halfway line and one pass flew out for a throw. He was entitled to his shot (if a little greedy) and though it was poorly-hit, it was better than 2 of Reid's. If Byrne was given an extended run in the squad, even the training would do him good and he could be a good addition. It's always good to have strikers who are used to hitting the target at whatever level.
you can pick several individual performances apart last night, but for me the more worrying thing was the lack of urgency from the off and throughout the game, arent these the lads who were meant to be all happy again after the rule-happy Kerr era? all happy and revved up to play for ireland again, i didnt see any of that at all from some of the senior lads.
they looked like men who just spent some time in the sun in portugal and were looking forward to some more time in the sun very soon, and werent arsed about the game at all
maybe stan is being too nice to them, i dont know. im sure he wanted to blood Dixon last night, cant see why he named him otherwise, but his boys had made such a pigsear of the evening it was'nt possible.
Just cos you say its "rubbish" doesnt make it so morse. You can start a thread on anything if it makes you feel better.
Is Kevin Doyle suddenly a better player after leaving cork?
KOH
Dont state something as fact when its just an opinion. You reckon that it was just a token gesture that Byrne was called up thats fair enough as its your opinion. It cannot be called fact as there is no proof that it was the case.
Facts can be proved by hard evidence. Your point was pure opinion.
Also as I have said before that I dont normally get involved in the slagging of the EL or slagging of the bar stoolers debate as I say live and let live. But I do think its clear as the Waterford fan has pointed out that the top 4 clubs in the EL are strong due to professionalism and should produce a strong showing in Europe and are up to the standards of the Championship. Nobody said it was better than the Championship in this thread, so you are misquoting people here.
In Trap we trust
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