We could have won the WC....
A month ago, it was unthinkable that Ireland could have won the WC. However, given the way the tournament has panned out, isn't it possible that we could have won the WC?
Leaving aside the issue of R*y Keane, who would have made us a much better team, the games we played were games we could have won.
[color=red]Proposition 1. What we should have done? :[/color]
v Cameroon: After a bad first half, we completely dominated the game and discovered that Cameroon were not as good nor to be feared as we thought. We should have beaten them.
v Germany: A mistake by Ian Harte, the initiative handed to us by Germany, a really never say die attitude by Ireland, again a game we should won.
v S. Arabia: we beat them and topped the group.
[color=navy]Second round :[/color]
v Paraguay : Does anyone believe we would not beat Paraguay?
v US : Again, does anyone believe we would not beat the US?
[color=navy]Semi-Final :[/color]
Spain/Germany or S.Korea : We should have beaten both Spain and Germany, I think we would beat S. Korea. I feel we would have a good chance. In a once off game against "major" teams, we have a great record. The same goes for the Final.
[color=red]Proposition 2. The results we did get :[/color]
First Round: Second in the group.
Second Round: Do we all agree we lost it against Spain, rather than they won it?
Quarter Final : S. Korea. I believe we would win this game.
Semi Final: Germany or US. I think we have evidence to prove we could have beaten either side.
Final : One from Brazil/England or Senegal/Turkey. I have to say I would think it would be very possible to beat Senegal/Turkey, a tough game against Brazil, and a difficult game phsycologically against England. Again though, in a once off game, I think we can beat any of those teams.
I realise this sounds all very nice sitting at my desk, typing this out, but I do think it is very plausible.
We got as far as Paraguay, Denmark, Sweden, Mexico, Belgium, Japan and Italy.
The US, Turkey, South Korea and Senegal have gone farther than us.
So did we under-achieve at this tournament?
I feel the evidence is there that we did not achieve as much as we should have, and I also feel that we had a real chance of winning. There is too much of a self-congratulory air around the place, and the mistakes that have been made seem to be forgotten about. Surely we have moved beyond the point where we must celebrate what happened at the 2002 WC as a major achievement?
Anybody who disagrees with me, I'd be delighted to hear the flaws and failings in my hypothesis, but with some reason and debate please, not simply calling me names or saying I'm a begrudger.
I'm disappointed that we are out but cannot help feel more disappointed with what might have been.
So, I'll await the abuse with interest.....
Last edited by patsh; 18/06/2002 at 3:22 PM.
Theres an awful lot of could haves and should haves in there. The fact is if we were to have won the World Cup absolutely everything would have had to go right for us, with no bad breaks whatsoever. This is reality, things never go completely right for anyone, and as it stands we already got our fair share of breaks (2 injury time equalisers for example). You can't expect everything to fall exactly the way you want it. Its easy to win the hindsight World Cup, reality is completely different.
IF IF IF.....
If my aunt had balls she'd be my................?
You could also say we lucky to get toi the finals in the first place.......Kluiverts misses at Lansdowne? Could easily have been 2-0 down against Cameroon & dead in the water. Only for last minute equaliser against germany be out of the tournament. Saudis could easily have scored when the we fell asleep in the 1st half. Spain had 2 goals disallowed for offside & as much as 9-10 offsides in the first half - one misjudgement by Staunton & Breen & would ahve been 2-0 & game over. A lot of other refs wouldn't have blown for the minute penalty too.
btw Kahn could yet win the Wc for germany - they be one of worst winners ever if happened though.
Gutted!
Did Senegal, Turkey, USA and South Korea go out there just to take part?, they may not win it but they are at least trying their hardest to.
We are a better team than any of them, we should still be there, we have missed our greatest ever chance of winning this thing. And why?, pride, incompetence and lack of ambition.
And then what do we do, hold a party in the park, drink a few pints and dream/wish we'll do better next time.
Do you honestly believe the irish did not try their hardest to progress?Originally posted by Wizzard
they may not win it but they are at least trying their hardest to.
Oh, the players tried alright, you have to hand it to them, even David Connolly worked very hard when he came on and nearly scored. But do you really believe he should have been anywhere near the squad, never mind playing in the World Cup second phase?.
What are you talking about? Ireland were just as ambitious as anyone else, Mick and Stan were even talking about winning the WC in the lead up to the Spain match. As for incompetence, could you please tell me who was incompetent?Originally posted by Wizzard
incompetence and lack of ambition.
The lads tried their hardest and with a bit of luck we could have progressed, we didnt but we showed we can compete with the best of them and I fancy our chances in euro 2004.
Pete, MikeW my whole point was to talk about the if's but's and maybes.
I am also aware of the fact that I am dealing in hindsight. I said so in the original post.
Its the minnows World Cup alright and its an injustice that we're going home so early. We could have gone so far and even made it an England v Ireland final, Im not being overoptimisitc, weve matched the best this tournament has to offer, its just our luck that our best chance of doing something big in a major tournament has passed us by, will the big guns fall so easily in the next tournament? Probably not.
'Fascists dress in black and go round telling people what to do, where as priests.....'
Its the minnows World Cup alright and its an injustice that we're going home so early. We could have gone so far and even made it an England v Ireland final, Im not being overoptimisitc, weve matched the best this tournament has to offer, its just our luck that our best chance of doing something big in a major tournament has passed us by, will the big guns fall so easily in the next tournament? Probably not.
'Fascists dress in black and go round telling people what to do, where as priests.....'
ah i am gutted. we blew it and mick is the wrong man in charge.
hopefully ccfc will pick things up in the summer
john flynn? - awesome!!!!!!
I disagree, he is the only man who could get the best out of average players- Kilbane, Breen, McAteer etc.Originally posted by dalo
mick is the wrong man in charge
Also a lot of the tactical changes he made during the tournament paid off big time.
His only weakness is his undying loyalty to certain players e.g. bring Carlsley over Colin Healy and refusing to drop Ian Harte.
I think we used up our luck in previous tournaments - playing for draw in Genoa, hanging on for win in Giants stadium.
With only 2 qualifying for the finals groups these days & also on one automatic qualifier from qualifying group 2002 arguabily a better achievement.
Never before have irish attacking players been hailed as stars of a tournament.
you don't get luck you make your own. ireland under mick didn't even prepare for penos for godsakes as for attacking players you should change that to attacking player.Originally posted by pete
I think we used up our luck in previous tournaments - playing for draw in Genoa, hanging on for win in Giants stadium.
With only 2 qualifying for the finals groups these days & also on one automatic qualifier from qualifying group 2002 arguabily a better achievement.
Never before have irish attacking players been hailed as stars of a tournament.
mccarthy is a **** and can never be forgiven for sending keane home.
we underacheived and as a country we are too happy to settle for a last 16 spot. don't believe the hype. we let a great oppurtunity slip away.
as for maccarthy getting the best out of average players why does he pick them in the first place if they are average. we blew it guys sorry.
john flynn? - awesome!!!!!!
All from a fella who thinks Liam Murphy is the berries!Originally posted by dalo
you don't get luck you make your own. ireland under mick didn't even prepare for penos for godsakes as for attacking players you should change that to attacking player.
mccarthy is a **** and can never be forgiven for sending keane home.
we underacheived and as a country we are too happy to settle for a last 16 spot. don't believe the hype. we let a great oppurtunity slip away.
as for maccarthy getting the best out of average players why does he pick them in the first place if they are average. we blew it guys sorry.
Agree with you 100%.Originally posted by dalo
we underacheived and as a country we are too happy to settle for a last 16 spot. don't believe the hype. we let a great oppurtunity slip away.
Semi-Final place at the very least.....
Well hes not exactley spoiled for choice, now is he.Originally posted by dalo
as for maccarthy getting the best out of average players why does he pick them in the first place if they are average.
We could have made the final without too much bother. We would have played Korea in the 1/4 final whom we could beat. And we would have played Germany in the semis who we more than matched 2 weeks ago. It was a great chance, we just needed a little luck against Spain.Originally posted by oddboy
Semi-Final place at the very least.....
We couldn't really have won the world cup. Remember we only beat Saudia Arabia, and while the other 3 games were tough ones, if we were to entertain chances of going beyond the last 16, we needed to show we were capable of beating them. But we were not capable of beating them or scoring more than one goal against them. The Yanks at least put 3 past Portugal. Would we have hit three past Portugal. Not on your life. The Yanks beat Mexico 2:0. Would we have beaten a talented Mexico 2:0. I don't think so. We did not underachieve in this world cup. We were just not good enough. We played attractive soccer, much nicer than anything under Jack. It's a young team and I think it has the potential to acquire the killer touch to win big games. It did not have the killer touch in 2002 and that's why we went home in the round of final 16.
We COULD have won, but we DIDN'T. However without doubt we've consolidated as a premier european team. We showed good spirit and self belief (esp with the two late goals) and overall were cohesive and a joy to watch. In short we had a right good go and were much more varied than the Charlton teams.
The weaknesses are Mick's man management (eg ***) and his player loyalty (eg Harte/Kilbane). And not practising penalties defies belief. Can you imagine Germany not practising penalties? As a 17 year old Boris Becker said after he won his first Wimbledon, when he was asked "What do you do when you're not playing?"... "I practice".
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