NI Passports

[Not Brazil]

Great post DCFC Steve.

The myopic view of Irishness that some (on both sides) possess is a major hurdle that must be overcome if we are ever to have lasting and meaningful peace on this island.

PS. Hope the Candystripes finish off an excellent job in Europe.

[Gather round]

Thanks for the info aboyut DC fans, Steve.

A Senor Lopez- creo que usted tiene el baton en la mierda (lo siento, mi espanol es muy mal. No pasaran!)

[lopez]

I persdonally see no contradiction. I think the problem is that you only have a single, one-dimensional view of 'Irishness' - one wrapped-up in terms of nationalism/republicanism, independence and unity. And invariably you only apply this to Unionists - not to catholics..

I'm laughing here at being accused of 'one-dimensional view of 'Irishness'' when you come up with two examples of your own. Religion and the place your mother dropped you. The second is simple. Being born in a stable doesn't make you automatically a horse. You're intelligent to know that one, or at least I thought so. The first is something that people usually accuse those that ran Stormont for 50 years. Does being Irish entail being Catholic aswell? Erm....no!

A lot of northern Irish catholics have no desire for there to be a united Ireland (the majority, if a recent survey is to be believed), so are by default happy to remain under the control of Britain.

I really had to contain myself with this statement here. In fact it says something but I think David's argument about KAI being linked to some cr*appy Danish footballer from the seventies sounds more plausible. Where are these fantasy figures taken from? I'd agree with the bit about the United Ireland bit, being a narrow question in itself, but haven't you heard of, autonomy, confederacy, joint sovereignty, independence? I don't think this equates with your 'happy to remain under the control of Britain' bullsh*t. I'm sure if it were true that 51% of the Catholic population were, then the likes of the UUP elite wouldn't be getting a bit uncomfortable in their seats when the Reverend Smyth wanted the three other counties of Ulster incorporated into NI as a matter of party policy. However this is all irrelevant, since when has being a Catholic automatically equated with being Irish? By the way, in a poll I remember reading about taken around the time of that plebiscite in the early seventies, over NI's future, 6% of Protestants claimed to support a united Ireland. Roughly 60,000, if true, two thirds the membership of the Orange Order at the time.

Anyway, thanks for answering for Not Brazil and the rest of the lads. Despite the odd nugget of boll*cks, it's still miles more articulate than any of them could offer.

[dcfcsteve]

Being born in a stable doesn't make you automatically a horse.

All well and good, were we talking about Shergar. But we're not - we're talking about people.

Why is it so difficult to understand that someone can use the word 'Irish' to describe their place of origin, without it affecting or detracting from their own personal sense of nationality or identity ? Are people not allowed to define their own identity for themselves ?

Why does this create a problem for you ?

[Gather round]

I think we need a link to that survey you quoted, Steve. If only to reassure Sr Lopez.

Lopez himself may wish to browse up thread. In which he'll see plenty of 'articulate' explanation why Not Brazil, say, is just as Irish as our compadre.

[lopez]

All well and good, were we talking about Shergar. But we're not - we're talking about people.

It's an expression, which seems to have gone over your head. Think of this. People calling themselves British when they were born and often never left a geographical area that even they wouldn't consider a geographical part of Britain (i.e. Northern Ireland/O6C).

Why is it so difficult to understand that someone can use the word 'Irish' to describe their place of origin, without it affecting or detracting from their own personal sense of nationality or identity ? Are people not allowed to define their own identity for themselves ?

Why does this create a problem for you ?

As I said, I couldn't care less what people thought they were from week to week. But I am talking about nationality here. Ireland is a nation - state. The fact that a part of it was denied entry into this state along undemocratic means doesn't deny this. Yes you can be (regionally) Irish and (nationality) British, just as you can be regionally Basque and Catalan but nationality be Spanish (the nearest example in Europe I can give to the multinational state of the UK). The funny thing is that all the time I've read forums on NI, I've never seen a SF voting, GAA playing, NI hating 'because they don't like Catholics at Windsor Park' Catholic reply 'but I'm also British.' That's the question I was initially asking.

I think we need a link to that survey you quoted, Steve. If only to reassure Sr Lopez.

Well seeing that Steve hasn't done you the honours, I'll provide you with one of the latest polls on the subject.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2004/Polit.../NIRELAND.html

Only 24% were, to use Steve's 'happy to remain under the control of Britain' so he was talking cojones. That, as a ball park figure is just over twice the number of Protestants that want a united Ireland. Even here the question of 'Joint Authority' which the British government were offering the people of Gibraltar despite knowing it would get an overwhelming No but would possibly split the vote in NI, didn't get asked and might even reduce the absolute unionist vote even further.

What is more interesting is the vote for the 18-24 survey compared with those of 65+. There is huge fall in those wanting to remain part of the UK without a rise in those wanting join the republic. The desire for an independent state is now 22%.

[geysir]

It's a Quality of Life survey where every answer is tediously broken down into the finer details of religious affiliations etc.

Not much debate on the common interests.
Most people from both religions believe, that "strong trade unions are needed to protect employees' working conditions and wages"
that "Ordinary working people do not get their fair share of the nation's wealth"
"that It is the government's responsibility to provide a job for everyone who wants one"
"That It doesn't really matter which party is in power, in the end things go on much the same"
Seems normal enough to me.

[dcfcsteve]

It's an expression, which seems to have gone over your head.

I am very familiar with the expression, as famously (though incorrectly) ascribed to the Duke of Wellington. That doesn't change anything with regards my comments on it.

Think of this. People calling themselves British when they were born and often never left a geographical area that even they wouldn't consider a geographical part of Britain (i.e. Northern Ireland/O6C).

So what would you describve the Falkland Islanders as then (no snide remarks please) ? They are British by nationality - even though most of them will never set foot in Britain ! Again - you're trying to overlap nationality and geography as if they were perfect replicas of each other. You're taking far too narrow an interpretation of nationalit - hence why it's confusing you.

As I said, I couldn't care less what people thought they were from week to week.

Really ? So why all the gurning on here about Unionists having to check to describe themselves as both Irish and British ? If you don't care, why bring it up ?

But I am talking about nationality here. Ireland is a nation - state. The fact that a part of it was denied entry into this state along undemocratic means doesn't deny this.

The Republic of Ireland is the state, not 'Ireland'. There is an obvious difference. Also - I'm surprised to hear you desribe the ROI as a nation state - given that, as you recognise, a large chunk of the nation (geographically and population-wise) lies outside of the ROI. This is a statement of fact - not politics. The Basque Country 'nation' is split between France and Spain. If only the Spanish part went Independent, it would not compose the Basque nation - as a chunk of that nation would still be in France.

Yes you can be (regionally) Irish and (nationality) British, just as you can be regionally Basque and Catalan but nationality be Spanish (the nearest example in Europe I can give to the multinational state of the UK). The funny thing is that all the time I've read forums on NI, I've never seen a SF voting, GAA playing, NI hating 'because they don't like Catholics at Windsor Park' Catholic reply 'but I'm also British.' That's the question I was initially asking.

Sorry lopez - but I haven't got a clue what you're on about here. What question were you intiially supposedly asking - none of the above is a question ?? What have ardent Republicans got to do withe the rights or actions of Unionists in describing themselves as both British and Irish ??

Well seeing that Steve hasn't done you the honours, I'll provide you with one of the latest polls on the subject.

Apologies for needing to sleep between the hours of 2 am and 9am, and needing to work in the hours that followed. Note to self - must stock-up on some more of those Superman pills.....

Only 24% were, to use Steve's 'happy to remain under the control of Britain' so he was talking cojones. That, as a ball park figure is just over twice the number of Protestants that want a united Ireland. Even here the question of 'Joint Authority' which the British government were offering the people of Gibraltar despite knowing it would get an overwhelming No but would possibly split the vote in NI, didn't get asked and might even reduce the absolute unionist vote even further.

I'm not sure if you posted the wrong link by accident, but the above survey actually says the complete opposite to what you're suggesting ! Only 22% of total NI population wanted to reunify with the rest of Ireland, versus 59% looking to remain in the UK. The most recent results (the 2005 survey - conducted between Oct 2005 and Jan 2006, and results just released) showed a similar split : 23% for reunification, 58% for remaining in UK. The 2005 results are listed with Catholics split 50-50 between remaining in UK and unification - but their press releases made clear that the figure for untiy is actually less than 50%, as it was rounded up. These results have been pretty much consistent since the annual survey began in 1998. The survey is considered to have a low margin of error, given its relatively large sample size. Who's serving up the cojones now.....?

And I'd argue strongly that any 'joint-authority' question would have a greater negative impact upon the number in favour of reunification than on those for the status quo. Never in the history of Northern Ireland has joint authority been suggested by either side as a credible and aceptable solution. So why should it be asked in such a survey anyway ?

[geysir]

The 2005 results are listed with Catholics split 50-50 between remaining in UK and unification ?

The results read to me as two to one in favour of reunification.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2005/Polit.../NIRELAND.html

[Not Brazil]

Anyway, thanks for answering for Not Brazil and the rest of the lads. Despite the odd nugget of boll*cks, it's still miles more articulate than any of them could offer.

If you cared to read the thread, I have articulated my position quite clearly...not that it requires much articulating, as I am Irish & British - err, simple as that!

Now, if there are any "odd nuggets of ******" that you wish to take up with me, based on my previous posts, please feel free to do so.

[dcfcsteve]

The results read to me as two to one in favour of reunification.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2005/Polit.../NIRELAND.html

Apologies - that was 50-50 split between unification and other options. As the press release clarified, it was in actual fact slightly less than 50% in favour of unification. And if we're being honest, Independence is not an option that would traditionally be considered a 'Nationalist'soption (I've yet to meet a nationalist who would support it, but have met 'unionists' who do), whilst even if 'other' did mean joint-administration, that still wouldn't be an outright rejection of the connection to Britain/UK.

Bottom line is that if we can't even get a majority of Catholics to want a united Ireland, then there's a very long road to travel people.....

Anyhoo - how does all this prevent unionists from describing themslves as Irish ??

[geysir]

I suppose half Irish is out of the question.

The closest question in the survey to the thread topic is this one
"Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?"
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2005/Commu...s/NINATID.html
Only 5% of Protestants consider themselves Irish.

But of course no question about duality

[dcfcsteve]

You're digging yourself into a hole here. The person who brought the survey into the discussion was you. It's not up to others to defend its relevance.

What hole ? The survey stated that less than half the Catholics in NI want a United Ireland. I raiised it in the context of wondering why they don't have their 'right' to describe/consider themselves as Irish questioned by people like Lopez, just like unionists do. Where's the hole there ?

As I have already mentioned, I personally agree that unionists have every right to descrbe themselves as Irish, if they wish.

But you're not the person who raised the topic out of the blue and has been claiming that they don't have that right.

[lopez]

Really ? So why all the gurning on here about Unionists having to check to describe themselves as both Irish and British ? If you don't care, why bring it up ?

I'm wondering about the inconsistency of Unionists to eschew descriptions of Irishness (it's now called Ulster Unionism not Irish Unionism) with the tendency of some to claim Irishness when discussing sectarian matters on the football forums I've seen (ie. the subject of KAI not meaning 'Kill All Irish' because 'we're Irish ourselves').

The Republic of Ireland is the state, not 'Ireland'. There is an obvious difference. Also - I'm surprised to hear you desribe the ROI as a nation state - given that, as you recognise, a large chunk of the nation (geographically and population-wise) lies outside of the ROI.

I don't think my interpretation of Ireland is inconsistent with the two former leaders of the SDLP and the one before them prior to his conversion on the road to the House of Lords (not sure of Durkin's view on the subject as NI doesn't get the same press these days). That view is essentially: Ireland was artificially divided, it never should have been, it was undemocratic to do so, and the desire to re-unite the country is a legitimate aspiration (that both Hume and Mallon aspired to) providing it is done without recourse to shoving a gun in people's faces. As the for the reublic tag, that's used solely as a way of trying to rubbish the aspiration of a united Ireland. France is officially called the Republic of France but no one ever refers to it as the Republic or the French Republic or 'la France'. Also you're getting mixed up with nationalities living in other nation-states. I believe that Northern nationalists are not living in another country and so that's why I'd claim Ireland as a nation-state. Kilburn in the seventies could be counted as part of the Nation, or the Liverpool constituency that voted for the IPP candidate TP O'Connor before partition, but I don't support either's annexation into an Irish state.

Sorry lopez - but I haven't got a clue what you're on about here. What question were you intiially supposedly asking - none of the above is a question ?? What have ardent Republicans got to do withe the rights or actions of Unionists in describing themselves as both British and Irish ??

See above re. KAI.

Apologies for needing to sleep between the hours of 2 am and 9am, and needing to work in the hours that followed. Note to self - must stock-up on some more of those Superman pills.....

I think you need to stock up on some glasses. If someone said I was talking b*llocks I'd have quickly put up the survey in my original post.

I'm not sure if you posted the wrong link by accident, but the above survey actually says the complete opposite to what you're suggesting ! Only 22% of total NI population wanted to reunify with the rest of Ireland, versus 59% looking to remain in the UK. The most recent results (the 2005 survey - conducted between Oct 2005 and Jan 2006, and results just released) showed a similar split : 23% for reunification, 58% for remaining in UK.

I was talking about Catholics which was the subject you insisted on bringing in. I did make a mistake with the Protestant figure as I was still thinking of the 6% of an earlier poll I'd seen earlier from the seventies. Apologies for that

The 2005 results are listed with Catholics split 50-50 between remaining in UK and unification - but their press releases made clear that the figure for untiy is actually less than 50%, as it was rounded up. These results have been pretty much consistent since the annual survey began in 1998. The survey is considered to have a low margin of error, given its relatively large sample size. Who's serving up the cojones now.....?

You are...still! The poll was 50% for unification, 25% for remaining within the UK.

...But you're not the person who raised the topic out of the blue and has been claiming that they don't have that right.

What part of 'Far be it for me to tell anyone what exactly their nationality is this week...' and 'As I said, I couldn't care less what people thought they were from week to week...' do you equate with claiming that I believe people have no choice in their own identity. One thing I've found about forums is that assuming people's views when they haven't put them down makes you look extremely foolish. You've made a pr*t of yourself with your insistence I equate nationalists with Catholicsm and then that 50% of Catholics are 'happy' with the status quo where your quoted opinion poll states only 25%. I'd take a deep breath before you make yourself looking even more ridiculous.

[Not Brazil]

I'm wondering about the inconsistency of Unionists to eschew descriptions of Irishness (it's now called Ulster Unionism not Irish Unionism) with the tendency of some to claim Irishness when discussing sectarian matters on the football forums I've seen (ie. the subject of KAI not meaning 'Kill All Irish' because 'we're Irish ourselves').

No inconsistencies on my part.

I'm Irish & British...whether it's on a football forum, at work, at home with my family, abroad etc.

That's what I am. It's not open for discussion.

Those who subscribe to a notion of "KAI" are offensive to me, as an Irishman.

If scratched, I think their beef is with Irish Republicanism (particularly militant republicanism), and not all Irish per se.

I do not really understand those born on the island of Ireland who denounce their Irishness - I suspect they simply associate "Irishness" nowadays with Republicanism.

It's sad that they have allowed republicans to rob them of part of their identity.

[David]

I know Sean well - was in his year at school, and he's a fellow member of the London Derry City Supporters Club (even though he's Oxford based). It's interesting that he's my age a we both experienced tha same mid-1980's Northernb Ireland, republic of Ireland and Derry City FC exposure, yet we decided to follow different international teams. He's very firmly in the minority amongst Derry fans in this - though there would be support for the NI U21's as City have been supplying players to the team for a while now.

Hard to know how many people from the protestant communit turn up to Derry games, but there certainly are some. Not as many as in the IL days - though that will have as much to do with pre-versus-post 1969 Northern Ireland than anythign to do with our club. We probably had more protestant supportesr in our eearly days back in the LOI (ironically, given the politics of the time) - though we also had more of every type of support as well back then. We do have the odd high-profile protestant supporter like 'Linfield Jambo' and others, and the experiences of away fans in the Setanta Cup has shown a lot more that Derry fans are nothing like what people had assumed.

It is commented from time to time on the Derry City forum that it would be good to see more support from the protestant community. The club really is a neutral space on match days - no tricolours (apart maybe from Euro games), no sectarian singning. Even wearing a Celtic top in the Brandywell is likely to lead to snide comments. These are all voluntary measures the fans have taken subconsciously - the club has never had to drive any line on this. Likewise, I would be surprised if there was ever Irish language mottos, signage or anything like that ever introduced into the club - again because it just doesn't suit the ethos of our history and our fan's approach to football.

Hopefully as the trenches get levelled in Norn Irish society we can see more protestants seeing no big deal about watching City play. An all-Island league would doubless help in this - but that's a whole different story.....

I think most Linfield supporters would have a pretty high opinion of Derry City supporters and certainly nobody would blame them for our problems when we have visited there. Your support at Windsor Park was absolutely superb. The one problem I have with some Derry supporters is their apparent hatred for all things Irish League and their branding of those that do not agree with them as a bigot. For example I referred to your city as Londonderry on the Derry City and took an absolute hammering. Please note I did not and would not refer to your club using this name but I have always and will always refer to the city as Londonderry but have no problem whatsoever in others referring to it as Derry, that is their right. Another thing that I took a hammering over was saying that we had to go into another country to get home. The fact is, although I accept totally that some do not like the fact, that Donegal is in a different country to Londonderry but for saying this I got branded a bigot. On the Derry City forum I even got branded as a terrorist on the basis of who I was sat with at the game in the Brandywell. As I said a fantastic support but from quite a few there is an intolerance of others beliefs and it certainly does not strike me as a welcoming environment for Protestants.

[dcfcsteve]

I think most Linfield supporters would have a pretty high opinion of Derry City supporters and certainly nobody would blame them for our problems when we have visited there. Your support at Windsor Park was absolutely superb. The one problem I have with some Derry supporters is their apparent hatred for all things Irish League and their branding of those that do not agree with them as a bigot. For example I referred to your city as Londonderry on the Derry City and took an absolute hammering. Please note I did not and would not refer to your club using this name but I have always and will always refer to the city as Londonderry but have no problem whatsoever in others referring to it as Derry, that is their right. Another thing that I took a hammering over was saying that we had to go into another country to get home. The fact is, although I accept totally that some do not like the fact, that Donegal is in a different country to Londonderry but for saying this I got branded a bigot. On the Derry City forum I even got branded as a terrorist on the basis of who I was sat with at the game in the Brandywell. As I said a fantastic support but from quite a few there is an intolerance of others beliefs and it certainly does not strike me as a welcoming environment for Protestants.

David - I don't believe you're either naive or stupid enough to be surprised by the reaction your comments gained on the City website. Intentionally or otherwise, your comments were understandably viewed as provocative.

You know full well that the name of our city is contentious. Referring to it as 'Londonderry' on the Derry City website was simply unnecessary, and form a Linfield fan will always be considered provocative. If most of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland can have no probelm referring to it as Derry - including organisations such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, City of Derry Rugby Club and City of Derry Cricket Club - then I fail to see why it has to be such a burning issue for A Belfats man like you. Particularly on the Derry City website, where the reaction you received was entirely predictable. If it pains you that much to use the word 'Derry', you could've referred to 'the city' or 'the town' instead. For the record p- whilst I fully respect the right of someone from or living in the City or County of Derry/Londonderry to use either name to describe the location, I will not have anyone from outside the city tell me what my home town or county should be called. It's simply none of their business. Other Derry fans would be of a similar mindset. hence why there was no problems amongst Derry fans when referring to the exchange event Brandywell Pride ran with 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club. It's their city - they have the right to call it what they like. Outsiders looking to use the name of our city to make/score petty points are not so easily tolerated.

Your insistence on referring to a short deter through Donegal as 'going through a different country' was factually correct with regards political borders, but incorrect given that the island of Ireland is considered a 'country' for most non-political purposes (e.g. rugby, athletics, boxing). Regardless - it was completely unnecessary for you to use such langauge, and added nothing to the point you were making. Your insitence on referring to Donegal in such a way can therefore only be interpreted as deliberately bloody-minded/provocative.

With regards abuse for who you sat with at the game, that was unfortunate given the reality of post-troubles NI. But the man is a convisted loyalist terrorist, and given the WUMming you'd done through your choice of language in previous posts it wasn't a surprising retort, even if it was rather unfair.

In summary, I'm amazed that 5 months later you are still exhibiting surprise or 'hurt' at an entirely predictable response you received when using provocative language in a thoroughly unnecessary way - one that not only didn't add anything to your points, but actually detracted strongly from them. Whether or not you sought to be deliberately provocative is not important - especially as I don't for one minute believe you're so naive as to not have known in advance the impact of the language you chose. To then try and extrapulate conclusions from that with regards how welcomihng our club is towarsd members of the protestant community is quite frankly laughable. Tell that to high profile protestant Linfield and Derry City supporting individuals like 'Linfield Jambo' and 'The Shankhill Candystripe'/ALinfield.

[dcfcsteve]

I think most Linfield supporters would have a pretty high opinion of Derry City supporters and certainly nobody would blame them for our problems when we have visited there. Your support at Windsor Park was absolutely superb. The one problem I have with some Derry supporters is their apparent hatred for all things Irish League and their branding of those that do not agree with them as a bigot. For example I referred to your city as Londonderry on the Derry City and took an absolute hammering. Please note I did not and would not refer to your club using this name but I have always and will always refer to the city as Londonderry but have no problem whatsoever in others referring to it as Derry, that is their right. Another thing that I took a hammering over was saying that we had to go into another country to get home. The fact is, although I accept totally that some do not like the fact, that Donegal is in a different country to Londonderry but for saying this I got branded a bigot. On the Derry City forum I even got branded as a terrorist on the basis of who I was sat with at the game in the Brandywell. As I said a fantastic support but from quite a few there is an intolerance of others beliefs and it certainly does not strike me as a welcoming environment for Protestants.

David - I don't believe you're either naive or stupid enough to be surprised by the reaction your comments gained on the City website. Intentionally or otherwise, your comments were understandably viewed as provocative.

You know full well that the name of our city is contentious. Referring to it as 'Londonderry' on the Derry City website was simply unnecessary, and form a Linfield fan will always be considered provocative. If most of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland can have no probelm referring to it as Derry - including organisations such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, City of Derry Rugby Club and City of Derry Cricket Club - then I fail to see why it has to be such a burning issue for A Belfats man like you. Particularly on the Derry City website, where the reaction you received was entirely predictable. If it pains you that much to use the word 'Derry', you could've referred to 'the city' or 'the town' instead. For the record p- whilst I fully respect the right of someone from or living in the City or County of Derry/Londonderry to use either name to describe the location, I will not have anyone from outside the city tell me what my home town or county should be called. It's simply none of their business. Other Derry fans would be of a similar mindset. hence why there was no problems amongst Derry fans when referring to the exchange event Brandywell Pride ran with 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club. It's their city - they have the right to call it what they like. Outsiders looking to use the name of our city to make/score petty points are not so easily tolerated.

Your insistence on referring to a short deter through Donegal as 'going through a different country' was factually correct with regards political borders, but incorrect given that the island of Ireland is considered a 'country' for most non-political purposes (e.g. rugby, athletics, boxing). Regardless - it was completely unnecessary for you to use such langauge, and added nothing to the point you were making. Your insitence on referring to Donegal in such a way can therefore only be interpreted as deliberately bloody-minded/provocative.

With regards abuse for who you sat with at the game, that was unfortunate given the reality of post-troubles NI. But the man is a convisted loyalist terrorist, and given the WUMming you'd done through your choice of language in previous posts it wasn't a surprising retort, even if it was rather unfair.

In summary, I'm amazed that 5 months later you are still exhibiting surprise or 'hurt' at an entirely predictable response you received when using provocative language in a thoroughly unnecessary way - one that not only didn't add anything to your points, but actually detracted strongly from them. Whether or not you sought to be deliberately provocative is not important - especially as I don't for one minute believe you're so naive as to not have known in advance the impact of the language you chose. To then try and extrapulate conclusions from that with regards how welcomihng our club is towards members of the protestant community is quite frankly laughable. Tell that to high profile protestant Linfield and Derry City supporting individuals like 'Linfield Jambo' and 'The Shankhill Candystripe'/ALinfield.

[David]

David - I don't believe you're either naive or stupid enough to be surprised by the reaction your comments gained on the City website. Intentionally or otherwise, your comments were understandably viewed as provocative.

You know full well that the name of our city is contentious. Referring to it as 'Londonderry' on the Derry City website was simply unnecessary, and form a Linfield fan will always be considered provocative. If most of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland can have no probelm referring to it as Derry - including organisations such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, City of Derry Rugby Club and City of Derry Cricket Club - then I fail to see why it has to be such a burning issue for A Belfats man like you. Particularly on the Derry City website, where the reaction you received was entirely predictable. If it pains you that much to use the word 'Derry', you could've referred to 'the city' or 'the town' instead. For the record p- whilst I fully respect the right of someone from or living in the City or County of Derry/Londonderry to use either name to describe the location, I will not have anyone from outside the city tell me what my home town or county should be called. It's simply none of their business. Other Derry fans would be of a similar mindset. hence why there was no problems amongst Derry fans when referring to the exchange event Brandywell Pride ran with 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club. It's their city - they have the right to call it what they like. Outsiders looking to use the name of our city to make/score petty points are not so easily tolerated.

Your insistence on referring to a short deter through Donegal as 'going through a different country' was factually correct with regards political borders, but incorrect given that the island of Ireland is considered a 'country' for most non-political purposes (e.g. rugby, athletics, boxing). Regardless - it was completely unnecessary for you to use such langauge, and added nothing to the point you were making. Your insitence on referring to Donegal in such a way can therefore only be interpreted as deliberately bloody-minded/provocative.

With regards abuse for who you sat with at the game, that was unfortunate given the reality of post-troubles NI. But the man is a convisted loyalist terrorist, and given the WUMming you'd done through your choice of language in previous posts it wasn't a surprising retort, even if it was rather unfair.

In summary, I'm amazed that 5 months later you are still exhibiting surprise or 'hurt' at an entirely predictable response you received when using provocative language in a thoroughly unnecessary way - one that not only didn't add anything to your points, but actually detracted strongly from them. Whether or not you sought to be deliberately provocative is not important - especially as I don't for one minute believe you're so naive as to not have known in advance the impact of the language you chose. To then try and extrapulate conclusions from that with regards how welcomihng our club is towards members of the protestant community is quite frankly laughable. Tell that to high profile protestant Linfield and Derry City supporting individuals like 'Linfield Jambo' and 'The Shankhill Candystripe'/ALinfield.

I feel you have simply proved my point here. At no point am I disputing anyones right with regards to what they call their city but I have been brought up to refer to it as Londonderry and will continue to do so. As I said in my previous post you and others can call it what you like. Why should I sidestep the issue by referring to it as "your city" or something like that. Why can you simply not accept my views in the same way that I am willing to accept yours? This is the intolerance I refer to.

The thing about another country was also not meant as a petty dig in any way. I was stating fact to show how ludicrous the whole situation was. As for a "short detour", it took us almost two hours to get back to cars and buses that were 5 minutes away from the ground, hardly a short detour.

As for the person seated beside me, yes he was a convicted loyalist paramilitary but unlike many others in this country he has served his sentence and has done a lot of excellent cross community work. The guy is a genuine football supporter and was there in that capacity and no other. He is in the same supporters' club as me which is how I have come to know him. I would be interested to see if you would brand someone sitting beside the MP for Mid Ulster in the same way as I understand he frequents your games yet Derry City supporters have seemingly no problem with that. A touch of hypocrisy?

To summarise in no way was I being provocative, if Derry City supporters cannot accept others beliefs then I would suggest it is they who have the problem and not me.

[dcfcsteve]

I feel you have simply proved my point here. At no point am I disputing anyones right with regards to what they call their city but I have been brought up to refer to it as Londonderry and will continue to do so.
To summarise in no way was I being provocative, if Derry City supporters cannot accept others beliefs then I would suggest it is they who have the problem and not me.

It's our city - not yours. Put simply, it's name has got feck all to do with you. We're the ones who have to live with it - not you.

This isn't intolerance - as no-one has a problem with the name of groups like 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club (interestingly - the penant they gave the Brandywell Pride Supporters Club is displayed on the wall of the DCFC Boardroom. Strange for a club you suggest is so unwelcoming to protestants or to those who want to use the name 'Londonderry'. ). Why - because it's their city also, and they therefore have the right to call it whatever the hell they like.

If you were so tolerant yourself you would respect the right of people who are from or live in a place to have a bit more of a right over it's name than a random outsider like you.

And for the record, the name of the city was democratically changed to Derry in 1984 anyway. Worry less about our home - whether we chose to call it Derry/Londoderry/Stroke City/Doire/The Town I love so Well/whatever, and a bit more about your own please.