NI Passports

[geysir]

And you were doing so well until you got to that bit!

PP

I thought he stumbled at

fought on both sides in the Spanish civil war

The blueshirts actually fighting?
maybe amongst themselves.

[Krstic]

What's sordid about it?
PP

Did you read all the posts on this thread PP?

[geysir]

Did you read all the posts on this thread PP?

Speaking for myself, some sordid posts do not make a sordid thread. Even in cases of obvious provocation, answers to the sordid were intelligent, precise and informative. Off topic yes.
Just to mention one thing
I had assumed that middle of the road Unionists not to mention D.U.s would have considered themselves British and Northern Irish (not Irish), that the Island was clearly divided into two distinct seperate entities and that stating oneself to be Irish gave more recogition to a unified concept than a Unionist was prepared to admit.
The definition of what is Irish is anyway quite subjective and changing.

[Thunderblaster]

I must say that there are some quality posts that would keep me reading all day and all night and I learned a bit too from them. It makes us fully aware that we do not understand Northern Ireland enough as we have a habit of stereotyping both the Nationalist/Unionist communities.

[Dassa]

If the Italians want it.....Why not? Though they have their own 'national' issues!

As for the 'Commonwealth', what a Patronisnising 'mealy-mouthed' sop that is.

Given all its constituent members were invaded by force; Thanks, but No.

& lastly(& I would be genuinely interested to hear What do Catholic Unionists think?!
Obviously we have the ''predictable' bickering, but coming from the opposite side of the fence, both Politically & 'religiously', I'd like to know? Why?!

Wolfe Tone (& significant others) instilled in me, why we should Never accept the British state 'governing; in Ireland & what I saw & heard* from being at one of the 'top' educational establishments in the North, did nothing to change this view.

*Makes me enraged even writing this now, years later. It was an absolute Disgrace.

What was a disgrace?

[Dassa]

Fair enough and lets face it, everyone in NI could tell a story. The country was in serious problems but as many have said lets think about the future.

[Not Brazil]

As a follow up to Gather round's eloquent post, you must get past the notion that there is only one conception of Irishness - the conception that many in Ireland (north and south) have successfully convinced themselves (and the rest of the world) that only the Green, Leprechaun, diddly-dee, GAA, republican, etc, version of Irishness is valid.

This is a fallacy. There are many other strands of Irishness (including, but not limited to, the British heritage of some, the Orange tradition, or the emigré community) and unhelpfull too. This is why Paisley can call himself Irish without an ounce of hypocracy, or why Linfield proudly boasted last year that they were 'Champions of Ireland', or why David Healy's goal against England was so fantastic.

Absolutely spot on.

An inability of many to get beyond a myopic view of Irishness.

What's more, many of those unionists/loyalists who would profess "I'm not one bit Irish" have been conditioned to think like that because of the aggressive myopic propogation of Irishness which has created the illusion that the only true Irish are arran jumper wearing, fiddly dee music playing, GAA fans who supp their Guinness whilst bleathering about the evil Brits.

I will never denounce my Irishness because some try to make me feel guilty that my Irishness is not as worthy as theirs.

Republicans in particular have often told me that I am merely "an Irishman in denial". When I have said, "You're right about the Irishman bit, but wrong about the denial", this is met with the cry that I'm not really an Irishman by the self same people....then we have folk like Gonzo telling us that it's me who has an identity crisis. How bizarre.

Perhaps some from both sides might care to reflect on the name of these organisations:

The Grand Orange Lodge Of Ireland
The Royal Irish Regiment
The Irish Football Association
The Church Of Ireland

I would suggest that none of these are bastions of republicanism.

I am absolutely clear about my identity. It clearly poses the Gonzo's of this world some serious questions as to how they accomodate that.

[Not Brazil]

I had assumed that middle of the road Unionists not to mention D.U.s would have considered themselves British and Northern Irish (not Irish), that the Island was clearly divided into two distinct seperate entities and that stating oneself to be Irish gave more recogition to a unified concept than a Unionist was prepared to admit.
The definition of what is Irish is anyway quite subjective and changing.

I'm Northern Irish.

How can Northern Irish not be Irish?

When I am abroad and asked if I am Irish, I would yes normally reply "Yes, I'm from Northern Ireland"

[geysir]

I'm Northern Irish.

How can Northern Irish not be Irish?

When I am abroad and asked if I am Irish, I would yes normally reply "Yes, I'm from Northern Ireland"

Nothing to be eeky about
I used the past tense.
The statement was made the context of what have I learned about in this thread.
If squezed to clarify, I had assumed that if asked when abroad, a Unionist would have replied British or Northern Irish and not that they were Irish. That assumption has changed.
Who said anything was incorrect about a Unionist saying they were Irish, not me, nor was it implied.

[dcfcsteve]

Well none of those US citizens would be allowed play for the National team home or away without a passport. It is required to have the document and to present it to the referee before you will be allowed participate in any interntional fixture. The drill is as follows the team sheet is completed by a team official with the full names as shown on the passport of each player, as well as their dates of birth and is signed by the captain.
The team sheets( for both teams) complete with a passport for each of the names therein is presented to the referee. This takes place approximately 1 hour before kick-off. The referee and or one of the assistants or 4th official. The match official will check each one and then the passports are returned to the respective teams and copies of the team sheets are then returned to the teams officials. Each official gets a photo/carbon copy of the other sides team sheet.

I have been involved on committees in running mini-qualification tournaments
for UEFA and the same rules apply whether it is Senior , under age internationals or Champions League games and UEFA Cup games male or female.

All very interesting, but has nothing to do with what I posted.

It was asserted that the FIFA ruling would deny NI players the right to both forms of citizenship, so I pointed out that it would do nothing of the sort. Passports are merely an internationally accepted form of proof of citizenship. They do not confer entitlement to citizeship - which was what was being suggested.

Struggling to see how your reply links into any of this...

[CollegeTillIDie]

I'm Northern Irish.

How can Northern Irish not be Irish?

When I am abroad and asked if I am Irish, I would yes normally reply "Yes, I'm from Northern Ireland"

Absolutely agree with you Not Brazil.

[CollegeTillIDie]

All very interesting, but has nothing to do with what I posted.

It was asserted that the FIFA ruling would deny NI players the right to both forms of citizenship, so I pointed out that it would do nothing of the sort. Passports are merely an internationally accepted form of proof of citizenship. They do not confer entitlement to citizeship - which was what was being suggested.

Struggling to see how your reply links into any of this...

The passport is a proof of identity, like a National Identity card. They confer
on the bearer a representation of their personal and national identity.
They show what "citizenship" the bearer has. I don't see how you cannot grasp that basic point!
My reply was to a post about very few US people having passports. I made the point that they could not represent the USA at football or indeed in any other internationally competitive sport for that matter, until they acquire a passport. I then went on to illustrate how a player , even playing at home, needs their passport in order to participate in an international fixture and why that is so.

[dcfcsteve]

The passport is a proof of identity, like a National Identity card. They confer
on the bearer a representation of their personal and national identity.
They show what "citizenship" the bearer has. I don't see how you cannot grasp that basic point!
My reply was to a post about very few US people having passports. I made the point that they could not represent the USA at football or indeed in any other internationally competitive sport for that matter, until they acquire a passport. I then went on to illustrate how a player , even playing at home, needs their passport in order to participate in an international fixture and why that is so.

Point of passports was well grasped - in fact, I was saying the same.

The US bit is what threw me, as it's obvious from this discussion that you'd need a US passport to play for the US team. That doesn't stop only reportedly 7% of the US population having a passport, and it doesn't stop the vas majority of the other 93% from being entitled to one if they wanted it.

I think we just had our wires crossed, so apologies dude.

[Not Brazil]

now you're 'Irish'! Hurrah!

Have stated my case previously;unionist 'denial' is only for their own convenience & on their own terms!
If you you don't understand this now, well that's not that unsurprising.

As for the bodies you list, 3 are endemic symbols of the British state in the North, despite their name(s). Not that it bothers me, though they should be confined to history books.

What do you mean "now you're Irish"?

The only person guilty of denying my Irishness on this thread all along has been your goodself....I have repeatedly stated that I am proud to be both Irish & British.

Perhaps it is you and your ilk who want to dictate the terms of what constitutes Irishness?

Your comments regarding the institutions I listed are revealing.

You haven't grasped the basic fact that Britishness on this island is here to to stay.

Those who seek to eradicate Britishnes are doomed to failure and cannot deliver a truly "united" Ireland.

My and my kind are going nowhere.

That, my friend, is a fact.

[Not Brazil]

So now you want to be 'British', make your mind up,FFS!

Once again, I am proud to be both Irish (born in Northern Ireland, on the island of Ireland) and British (within the United Kingdom Of Great Britain & Northern Ireland).

You obviously don't understand that. Rather than respect it, you sneer at it in hatred.

Until you do understand and accept it, there is absolutely no propspect whatsoever of a truly "united" Ireland.

I'll ignore the rest of your rant.

[Not Brazil]

Ah, but the truth hurts. I'm sure Gerry & Ian will take your views into consideration though!
As for 'hatred', how can anyone sneer at a 'concept', not even the majority of unionists would subscribe to,FFS?

What truth hurts?

What concept?

I am what I am. If you cannot accept that, too bad.

As for Gerry and Ian, I can assure you that I will never be voting for either of them or the extremist parties they represent.

[dcfcsteve]

Fair enough. Just don't think your self-proclaimed tag is 'realistic'. The rest of the 'questions';If you don't know the answers after reading this thread, then guess you never will.

However, more seriously, there aren't any practical moves by the politicians(who have the vast bulk of electoral support in the 6 counties) who are referred to, to address the current stalemate, well one in particular.
But as yer man says above, we all have to try to move on. I'm just not particularly optimistic about it.

Why the roll-eyes smiley after "self-proclaimed" ? He is clearly self-proclaiming ! And how can you say "fair enough" and then say in the next scentence you don't think he's being realistic ?? If it is "fair enough", then don't criticise it.

As for your continual off-topic moans about Unionist politicians - this is a thread about Northern Irish football and a FIFA ruling. Just because NotBrazil is a Unionist himself does not make him single-handedly responsible for Unionist politics and politicians. Regardless - can we keep this thread to the relevant issue and not go off on petty digs at certain groups or politicians ? There are other parts of the site for that.

[Paddy Ramone]

Ireland has a strong history of anti-imperialism, much more so than any other Western European country, and this has a lot to do with my own sense of Irishness. If Ireland were to complete the transformation into an overtly pro-imperialist country, like the UK and Australia, both Commonwealth members and invaders of Iraq, then the people of Ireland would bear a lot of the responsibility for this as they elect the government. Inevitably this would change how I feel about the Irish football team. The team represents the country and the people, that is why it is called representative football. Why would I want to cheer on a team who would represent a people and country that had turned its back on its own history and was now doing to other countries what Britain did to it?

Yes Ireland has a strong history of anti-imperialism. But you could also argue that the Irish were as much oppressors as other nations. I have a magazine article about an Irish general in the American army who gave the order to massacre Native American Indians. I'll try and find out the details. What about the Irish who settled in North America and Australia. What did they do help the natives there? What about the Irish who served in the British Army.

I'm just as much of an anti-imperialist as you are. But we're not completely innocent. In fact you can even go back to ancient history to when the Irish invaded and settled in Pictish inhabited North Britain in the fifth cenury. This resulted in a country called Scotland. The evidence of Irish "imperialism" in that country is still found in the place names. A dialect of Irish is still spoken today in the Western Isles. The Pictish language of the natives died out in the ninth century.

I think a United Irish Republic which I support would have to recognise the Scottish and English ethnic background of the Unionists to survive. What does the Orange on the irish tricolour represent? Commonwealth membership would recognise their connections with Britain. Didn't South Africa rejoin the commonwealth under Mandela. He's not an imperialist, is he?

[Dassa]

I always got the the impression that it seemed easy for people to place people in NI into DUP or SF camps. I for 1 cant abide any of those parties and dream of real politics in NI. Not sure what people think about the idea but I have always been a firm believer in Individual passports for NI, Scot, Wal and Eng nationalities. I believe we are seperate people historically and deserve our seperate identities. I understand peoples ideas that NI shouldnt exist but it does at present and we need to get on with it and try our best to accomadate.

[citybone]

Once again, I am proud to be both Irish (born in Northern Ireland, on the island of Ireland) and British (within the United Kingdom Of Great Britain & Northern Ireland).
You obviously don't understand that. Rather than respect it, you sneer at it in hatred.

Until you do understand and accept it, there is absolutely no propspect whatsoever of a truly "united" Ireland.

I'll ignore the rest of your rant.

ok thats your view and i do not want to change your view but could i ask what makes you proud to be british?

im not catholic or prodestant but i would still like a united ireland where we leave the past in the past and not cling to another country to rule/run our island
i would like to have a independent united country

and is this topic ment to be about players with irish passports playing for northern ireland?
not a political debate?