NI Passports

[David]

It's our city - not yours. Put simply, it's name has got feck all to do with you. We're the ones who have to live with it - not you.

This isn't intolerance - as no-one has a problem with the name of groups like 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club (interestingly - the penant they gave the Brandywell Pride Supporters Club is displayed on the wall of the DCFC Boardroom. Strange for a club you suggest is so unwelcoming to protestants or to those who want to use the name 'Londonderry'. ). Why - because it's their city also, and they therefore have the right to call it whatever the hell they like.

If you were so tolerant yourself you would respect the right of people who are from or live in a place to have a bit more of a right over it's name than a random outsider like you.

And for the record, the name of the city was democratically changed to Derry in 1984 anyway. Worry less about our home - whether we chose to call it Derry/Londoderry/Stroke City/Doire/The Town I love so Well/whatever, and a bit more about your own please.

Prior to 1984 what did you call the city? Whether I live there or not is immaterial, I am still entitled to refer to the city as I always have and always will. That is not me trying be offensive, it is simply the way it is. I am not trying to enforce my beliefs on you so why should you try to force yours on me? Whether I am from the city or not I am still at times going to have to refer to it, should I change what I have always called it just for you? That is intolerance. I fully accept your beliefs and respect them, please reciprocate that.

[dcfcsteve]

Prior to 1984 what did you call the city? Whether I live there or not is immaterial, I am still entitled to refer to the city as I always have and always will. That is not me trying be offensive, it is simply the way it is. I am not trying to enforce my beliefs on you so why should you try to force yours on me? Whether I am from the city or not I am still at times going to have to refer to it, should I change what I have always called it just for you? That is intolerance. I fully accept your beliefs and respect them, please reciprocate that.

Would you respect the beliefs of some idiot 3rd-generation 'Oirish' man in a pub in Brooklyn to refer to Northern Ireland, the Northern Irish situation and the protestant community in whatever way he liked ? I suspect not - regardless of what you may respond. And primarily because it's got feck all to do with him.

Like I said - it's our city, not yours, so I won't have anyone tell me what my City should and shouldn't be called. Is that religious or cultural intolerance ? Certainly not. Is it intolerance of the views of those living outside my city who really don't give a feck about the place and therefore have no right to tell me or others from there what it should be called ? Hell yes....

And I was 11 years old when the name of the city was changed in 1984, and would have used a mixture of terms to describe the city before then - depending on the context. For example, my grandfather always wrote 'Londonderry', but called it 'Derry'. Just like many protestants in the city did and indeed still do. What's your point here ? Is the democratically-decided name of 'Derry' now null and void because some people didn't use the previous 'official' title.....?

[David]

Would you respect the beliefs of some idiot 3rd-generation 'Oirish' man in a pub in Brooklyn to refer to Northern Ireland, the Northern Irish situation and the protestant community in whatever way he liked ? I suspect not - regardless of what you may respond. And primarily because it's got feck all to do with him.

Like I said - it's our city, not yours, so I won't have anyone tell me what my City should and shouldn't be called. Is that religious or cultural intolerance ? Certainly not. Is it intolerance of the views of those living outside my city who really don't give a feck about the place and therefore have no right to tell me or others from there what it should be called ? Hell yes....

And I was 11 years old when the name of the city was changed in 1984, and would have used a mixture of terms to describe the city before then - depending on the context. For example, my grandfather always wrote 'Londonderry', but called it 'Derry'. Just like many protestants in the city did and indeed still do. What's your point here ? Is the democratically-decided name of 'Derry' now null and void because some people didn't use the previous 'official' title.....?

Nowhere am I telling you what your city should or should not be called, I am simply telling you what I call it and people should accept my right to call it that. To give an example, a few seasons ago I wrote an article for the Institute programme when Linfield were visiting and I mentioned Linfield visiting Londonderry in the article. I was approached my a board member of Institute at the game and thanked for using the name Londonderry. You call it Derry, I accept totally your right to do so but please do me the courtesy of accepting my right to call it what I have always called it and the fact that I am not native to the city is completely immaterial. Are we now only allowed to refer to the city that we live in? Your failure to accept my right to use the term Londonderry is indicative of the intolerance shown by some Derry City supporters.

[dcfcsteve]

Nowhere am I telling you what your city should or should not be called, I am simply telling you what I call it and people should accept my right to call it that. To give an example, a few seasons ago I wrote an article for the Institute programme when Linfield were visiting and I mentioned Linfield visiting Londonderry in the article. I was approached my a board member of Institute at the game and thanked for using the name Londonderry. You call it Derry, I accept totally your right to do so but please do me the courtesy of accepting my right to call it what I have always called it and the fact that I am not native to the city is completely immaterial. Are we now only allowed to refer to the city that we live in? Your failure to accept my right to use the term Londonderry is indicative of the intolerance shown by some Derry City supporters.

I think you'll find the fact that some of those people are Derry City Supporters is immaterial to the point. If some Linfield fans have criminal records - as do many in society - would it then be fair of me to talk about the criminal record of some Linfield fans ?

It's all just a conspiracy against you anyway David.......

[David]

I think you'll find the fact that some of those people are Derry City Supporters is immaterial to the point. If some Linfield fans have criminal records - as do many in society - would it then be fair of me to talk about the criminal record of some Linfield fans ?

It's all just a conspiracy against you anyway David.......

When you take into consideration that it was a Derry City website where this intolerance was displayed by Derry City supporters then surely it is reasonable enough to level the intolerance accusation against some Derry City supporters? Not quite sure who has mentioned any conspiracy by the way.

[dcfcsteve]

When you take into consideration that it was a Derry City website where this intolerance was displayed by Derry City supporters then surely it is reasonable enough to level the intolerance accusation against some Derry City supporters? Not quite sure who has mentioned any conspiracy by the way.

And likewsie we could level a claim of intolerance against you for coming into a site full of Derry fans and using language you knew would/could be considered provocative - regardless of whether or not you use it regularly. Surely rigidly sticking to use of your language when in the company of a much larger group who you know would find such language provocative is intolerant ? If you regularly used the word 'bender' or 'fag' to describe gay people, that wouldn't make it ok to go onto Gaydar and do so. Remember - the city has been officially called Derry for over 20 years.

So we'll all be happy in our intolerance together then, eh David....?

[David]

And likewsie we could level a claim of intolerance against you for coming into a site full of Derry fans and using language you knew would/could be considered provocative - regardless of whether or not you use it regularly. Surely rigidly sticking to use of your language when in the company of a much larger group who you know would find such language provocative is intolerant ? If you regularly used the word 'bender' or 'fag' to describe gay people, that wouldn't make it ok to go onto Gaydar and do so. Remember - the city has been officially called Derry for over 20 years.

So we'll all be happy in our intolerance together then, eh David....?

What absolute nonsense. Why should I change how I normally refer to a city just because of the company that I am in? Why not just accept that a substantial number of people in this country refer to the second city as Londonderry? As for the official name changing, were those that referred to it as Derry prior to the name change being intolerant?

You have also conveniently ignored all the other allegations on the Derry City site which shows even more intolerance but sure, anyone that from Northern Ireland that disagrees with a Derry City supporter is a bigot.

[lopez]

With the risk of getting cyber stomped, as a 2nd generation half breed I know all this is NI stuff has f*ck all to do with me but I think that there are worst things that one can do than misquote a place's name. I personally wouldn't call Steve's hometown ******derry but I can understand why David (still) does. In that other part of the world that I'm supposed to take no interest in, they've changed countless names. One at least because Fat Frank decided to wax his ego by changing the title (of his birthplace no less) to honour his gentle regime, to which the locals, once they were able to offer an opinion on the matter without risk of incarceration, wanted it removed. Others purely on linguistic lines. However, I'm personally not going to change calling cities by new names just because of the political climate. Bit more 'parity of esteem' please! Lecture over.

[David]

With the risk of getting cyber stomped, as a 2nd generation half breed I know all this is NI stuff has f*ck all to do with me but I think that there are worst things that one can do than misquote a place's name. I personally wouldn't call Steve's hometown ******derry but I can understand why David (still) does. In that other part of the world that I'm supposed to take no interest in, they've changed countless names. One at least because Fat Frank decided to wax his ego by changing the title (of his birthplace no less) to honour his gentle regime, to which the locals, once they were able to offer an opinion on the matter without risk of incarceration, wanted it removed. Others purely on linguistic lines. However, I'm personally not going to change calling cities by new names just because of the political climate. Bit more 'parity of esteem' please! Lecture over.

I can totally live with that. When I originally used the name Londonderry it was not intended to cause offence and no real thought went into it, it is simply what I refer to that city as and if someone came onto a Linfield forum (or any other forum) and called it Derry I would have no problem with that whatsoever.

[Paddy Ramone]

Likewise, I would be surprised if there was ever Irish language mottos, signage or anything like that ever introduced into the club - again because it just doesn't suit the ethos of our history and our fan's approach to football

It's a pity that many Unionists or Protestants should find the Irish language offensive. They should know that many Scottish names are of Gaelic origin like Ian, Malcolm and Donald. Galloway a place where many of the Scottish settlers came from was a Gaelic speaking area until 1750.

[David]

It's a pity that many Unionists or Protestants should find the Irish language offensive. They should know that many Scottish names are of Gaelic origin like Ian, Malcolm and Donald. Galloway a place where many of the Scottish settlers came from was a Gaelic speaking area until 1750.

Not quite sure what this has to do with the thread. Personally I do not find the Irish language offensive. If people want to learn it, that is up to them. Personally I don't see much point as the reason I would want to learn another language is so that I can converse with someone who I cannot already converse with and with a few exceptions that is not the case with Irish as the vast majority of Irish speakers also speak English but as I said, each to their own.

[dcfcsteve]

What absolute nonsense. Why should I change how I normally refer to a city just because of the company that I am in?

Errrr - because that's what your favourite buzzword 'tolerance' often involves ????

What next - 'why should I not be allowed to march through an area where I'm not wanted ?

Why not just accept that a substantial number of people in this country refer to the second city as Londonderry? As for the official name changing, were those that referred to it as Derry prior to the name change being intolerant?

I suspect you would be one of those people who would bloody-mindedly defend their right to still call St Petersburg 'Leningrad', Sri Lanka 'Ceylon', and Beijing 'Peking'....

Anyways - let's do a wee sense check on your self-proclaimed tolerance. With a location like Derry/Londonderry who's name is contentious, there are very many occasions when only one name can or is used - e.g. when the title of the city appears in print or on signs.

Despite the name of the city being democratically changed from 'Londonderry' to 'Derry' in 1984, numerous organisations that should have no political axe to grind on this matter still insist on using 'Londonderry'. I'm talking about BT, Northern Ireland Railways/Translink, the Roads Service etc. The PSNI also appear to insist on using 'Londonderry', even though they have numerous opportunities to alternate usage between the 2 names as the BBC does.

Given your deep hatred of intolerance, will you join with me in condemning organisations that, when forced to use only one name to denote the city, ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the population of Derry with regards the name they should use ? Or is it not intolerant for an official organisation to ignore the official name when it has to use only one title for the city ?

[dcfcsteve]

You have also conveniently ignored all the other allegations on the Derry City site which shows even more intolerance but sure, anyone that from Northern Ireland that disagrees with a Derry City supporter is a bigot. :rolleyes

Like what.....?

I think you'll find it's only idiots looking to stir things up that get that treatment. As I've said before, you'll find a number of 'out and proud' Linfield fans who are made more than welcome at the Brandywell on match days (last Thursday being a classic example).

Also - ask First Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club if they are of the same opinion as you with regards the intolerance of City fans

And then look in the mirror and ask yourself why is it only David that seems to feel/be made to feel that way......

[David]

Like what.....?

I think you'll find it's only idiots looking to stir things up that get that treatment. As I've said before, you'll find a number of 'out and proud' Linfield fans who are made more than welcome at the Brandywell on match days (last Thursday being a classic example).

Also - ask First Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club if they are of the same opinion as you with regards the intolerance of City fans

And then look in the mirror and ask yourself why is it only David that seems to feel/be made to feel that way......

Ask Linfield fans in general about how they feel about this and I can guarantee you that the majority will have opinions very similar to mine. I know Jim Rainey well and I know that he goes to games and fair play to him, that is his choice. Maybe it is an internet thing with City fans as I have already said I thought they were a superb advert for their club at Windsor Park. I was at your end of the ground that night selling programmes and bar one guy with a childish comment they were very friendly. On the internet though it is completely different. Check the Derry City forum in the wake of our last visit to the Brandywell to see intolerance to others opinion. Basically the attitude of some is that if you do not agree with Derry City supporters you are a bigot and I took great exception to that.

[David]

Errrr - because that's what your favourite buzzword 'tolerance' often involves ????

What next - 'why should I not be allowed to march through an area where I'm not wanted ?



I suspect you would be one of those people who would bloody-mindedly defend their right to still call St Petersburg 'Leningrad', Sri Lanka 'Ceylon', and Beijing 'Peking'....

Anyways - let's do a wee sense check on your self-proclaimed tolerance. With a location like Derry/Londonderry who's name is contentious, there are very many occasions when only one name can or is used - e.g. when the title of the city appears in print or on signs.

Despite the name of the city being democratically changed from 'Londonderry' to 'Derry' in 1984, numerous organisations that should have no political axe to grind on this matter still insist on using 'Londonderry'. I'm talking about BT, Northern Ireland Railways/Translink, the Roads Service etc. The PSNI also appear to insist on using 'Londonderry', even though they have numerous opportunities to alternate usage between the 2 names as the BBC does.

Given your deep hatred of intolerance, will you join with me in condemning organisations that, when forced to use only one name to denote the city, ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the population of Derry with regards the name they should use ? Or is it not intolerant for an official organisation to ignore the official name when it has to use only one title for the city ?

If the name of the city was changed then I would have no problem whatsoever in agreeing with you that Derry should be used. Was the name of the city changed though or was it just the name of the council that was changed?

[dcfcsteve]

Wkipedia says that what was changed in 1984 was the name of the local authority, from "Londonderry County Borough Council" to "Derry City Council", but that the city itself is still called Londonderry, according to the city's Royal Charter.

Wikipedia says that, therefore, the official name of the city is still Londonderry.
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry/L...y_name_dispute

The Council has sought independent legal advice on this, which has stated categorically that the decision by the elected representatives of the city to change the name of the Local Authority also carries with regards changing the name of the city.

The Council is curreny taking legal action against the British government on this matter to have the situation recognised and addressed.

It is thoroughly absurd and undemocratic that a bit of paper issued in the 1600's should be deemed to over-rule the express wishes of the overwhelming majority of the population of Derry with regards what their own town is called. And then people wonder why it's such a sensitive issue.....

[dcfcsteve]

Ask Linfield fans in general about how they feel about this and I can guarantee you that the majority will have opinions very similar to mine. I know Jim Rainey well and I know that he goes to games and fair play to him, that is his choice. Maybe it is an internet thing with City fans as I have already said I thought they were a superb advert for their club at Windsor Park. I was at your end of the ground that night selling programmes and bar one guy with a childish comment they were very friendly. On the internet though it is completely different. Check the Derry City forum in the wake of our last visit to the Brandywell to see intolerance to others opinion. Basically the attitude of some is that if you do not agree with Derry City supporters you are a bigot and I took great exception to that.

What opinions ? What intolerance ? You're making uber-vague accusations here ! Smoke has more substance, ffs.....

If you're saying it appears to be only an internet issue, then how can you claim that it's "Linfield fans in general" , when we both know most don't go near message boards ??

It probably is only an internet thing - one where people come on using language that, whether they intend to or not, is considered provocative, when there is absolutely no need to do so. Go onto the forum now and you'll see plenty of posts from 'Linfield Jambo' 'ALinfield', 'The Shankill Candystripe' - all being treated like any other poster. DCFC fans - both on and off the internet - also have good relations with Institute fans (if only the same could be said for the relationship a sizeable number of Linfield fans have to some other clubs....).

So I ask you again - why is it only the very, very odd Linfield fan on the Derry site who has had felt need to complain about the responses their posts have elicited ? Well, I wonder indeed....

P.S. If you know young Rainey so well, maybe you'd relaise his name is 'Sean', not Jim. Or are you indulging in another bit of name-changing there yourself.....

[Dodge]

The second Wikipedia article says "The name of the city is still specified by its charter as Londonderry, and while the council has the power to apply to the British Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to change the city's name officially, it has not done so."

Why have they not done so?

Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia, particularly when it comes to politics

[dcfcsteve]

OK, I'll rephrase my question. Have they applied to change the name officially? If not, why not? If they have, what was the response?

With all due respect, I sincerely doubt Derry City Council would resort to the rather drastic and expensive measure of referal to the High Court on this issue if there was a very simple "Oh yeah !" alternative available.......

If you don't throw a hissy-fit regarding the length of time it'll take me to dig out the information (wedding in Devon tomorrow, Stag weekend starting Friday, UEFA Cup game to go to next week etc etc) I'll come back to you with the full details of what the situation is in due course.

Meanwhile, this will do for starters : http://www.derrycity.gov.uk/Press%20...0406-court.htm Gives you a flavour for the kind of hoops you have to jump through to have a democratic decision recognised in Northern Ireland.....

[David]

What opinions ? What intolerance ? You're making uber-vague accusations here ! Smoke has more substance, ffs.....

If you're saying it appears to be only an internet issue, then how can you claim that it's "Linfield fans in general" , when we both know most don't go near message boards ??

It probably is only an internet thing - one where people come on using language that, whether they intend to or not, is considered provocative, when there is absolutely no need to do so. Go onto the forum now and you'll see plenty of posts from 'Linfield Jambo' 'ALinfield', 'The Shankill Candystripe' - all being treated like any other poster. DCFC fans - both on and off the internet - also have good relations with Institute fans (if only the same could be said for the relationship a sizeable number of Linfield fans have to some other clubs....).

So I ask you again - why is it only the very, very odd Linfield fan on the Derry site who has had felt need to complain about the responses their posts have elicited ? Well, I wonder indeed....

P.S. If you know young Rainey so well, maybe you'd relaise his name is 'Sean', not Jim. Or are you indulging in another bit of name-changing there yourself.....

I wasn't aware of that and neither at a guess would most of the people around Windsor park who all, like me, call him Jim.

As for the reason there are no problems on the Derry City forum with the people you mention. That is quite simple really, it is because they do not disagree with the things said on there. Simply dare to disagree with some Derry City fans and you are branded a bigot and a terrorist and that is a fact, whether you like it or not.