Defeat could be blessing in disguise – Jeffrey

[David]

Care to explain this off-the-cuf remark ?

So it's ok for Linfield fans to come onto EL forums giving it the big 'I am', but as soon as any Derry fans (and why is it the Derry fans who you single out - hmmmm) point out that 1 win in 5 is not a world beating performance, all of a sudden it's swept under the carpet as 'chips on our shoulders'.

To clarify WWS - we're not the ones who were going around making huge claims of ourselves. Did our Manager and our fans blame the referee, the linesmen, the weather, the supposed full-time set-up of the opposition, or Buddha himself when we faield to beat Linfield ? No. Now ask youself the same question regarding Linfield.

No matter what way you look at it, 1 win in 5 is not championship material. Neither was Derry's 1 win in 4 - but we're not the ones who've been going around slabbering about how great we are versus everyone else. Wakey wakey, WWS...

One win in five is a nice way of putting it to put your slant on things. How about 1 defeat in 5 against EL clubs this seasonand two wins in 3 games against EL clubs last season? Makes things look a bit different eh? Just shows how the way things are worded can change things but people can quote all the stats they want about Linfield, fact is that we topped a group with two of the top EL clubs in it. Yes we went out narrowly in the semi final and fair play to Drogheda, I hope they go on and win it.

[dcfcsteve]

I'm not gonna point out individual posts but you are the one who's banged on and on about gulfs in class etc

Jeffries bleatings are no more than any manager when a microphone is stuck under their mush - compare and contrast Pat Fenlon, Paul Doolin and heaven help us Pat Dolan and Roddy Collins - its par for the course - even no mark gareth farrelly is at it now - talking nonsense is what managers do when they dont win!

I think you'll find we've generally been talking about the gulf in class between the 2 leagues. Which is a completely valid point - highlighted starkly by this year's Setanta tournament results.

Why you have to try personalise this as a Derry v Linfield thing is beyond me....

[dcfcsteve]

One win in five is a nice way of putting it to put your slant on things. How about 1 defeat in 5 against EL clubs this seasonand two wins in 3 games against EL clubs last season? Makes things look a bit different eh? Just shows how the way things are worded can change things but people can quote all the stats they want about Linfield, fact is that we topped a group with two of the top EL clubs in it. Yes we went out narrowly in the semi final and fair play to Drogheda, I hope they go on and win it.

Ok, ok - you're right. Yee's are feckin marvellous.

Cork/Drogheda fans - do you mind calling Saturday off and just letting Linfield keep the trophy again for at least one more year. We all know they're the best really - let's stop kidding ourselves here...

[wws]

Why you have to try personalise this as a Derry v Linfield thing is beyond me....

Ok, ok - you're right. Yee's are feckin marvellous.

Cork/Drogheda fans - do you mind calling Saturday off and just letting Linfield keep the trophy again for at least one more year. We all know they're the best really - let's stop kidding ourselves here..

cough cough splutter splutter

[dcfcsteve]

cough cough splutter splutter

If you genuinely fail to see how the two posts above fit in with the flow and context of the overall thread, then you're beyond help I'm afraid...

If a fan of Derry gives their opinion that the Irish League is weaker than the EL, and that Linfield would finish around about 4th in the southern league - a view based on the performances from this year's Setanta, rather than pure personal opinion - then you try to make that out as being driven by some sort of anti-Linfield Derry attitude. No attempt to accept that the opinion may have some footballing validity in itself.

But when other EL fans say similar things, you don't accuse them of likewise having an attitude against Linfield. So why the double-standard WWS ? I suspect you're lazily seeing what you hope/want/expect to see, whether it's there or not....

[David]

If you genuinely fail to see how the two posts above fit in with the flow and context of the overall thread, then you're beyond help I'm afraid...

If a fan of Derry gives their opinion that the Irish League is weaker than the EL, and that Linfield would finish around about 4th in the southern league - a view based on the performances from this year's Setanta, rather than pure personal opinion - then you try to make that out as being driven by some sort of anti-Linfield Derry attitude. No attempt to accept that the opinion may have some footballing validity in itself.

But when other EL fans say similar things, you don't accuse them of likewise having an attitude against Linfield. So why the double-standard WWS ? I suspect you're lazily seeing what you hope/want/expect to see, whether it's there or not....

So you work out that on the basis of this year's Setanta results we would finish fourth when only one team in the Eircom League was able to beat us and that is the team currently occupying top spot? Strange logic there.

[dcfcsteve]

So you work out that on the basis of this year's Setanta results we would finish fourth when only one team in the Eircom League was able to beat us and that is the team currently occupying top spot? Strange logic there.

Not at all. It would be foolish to put any significant emphasis on the position of teams in ANY league when they're only 5-6 games into a season.

Did Hearts end-up Scottish champions this year ? Did Wigan qualify for the Champions League....?

As the new season is still very young and there was little significant transfer activity over the Winter, last year's final EL table is much more reflective of the relative standing of our teams than a table after only a handful of games 5 months later. Particularly when you follow a league closely and have the understanding of the clubs involved to back that judgement up.

And I went throught the trail of logic that led me to predict you'd finish 4th earlier in the thread. Have a look back over it again.

[David]

Not at all. It would be foolish to put any significant emphasis on the position of teams in ANY league when they're only 5-6 games into a season.

Did Hearts end-up Scottish champions this year ? Did Wigan qualify for the Champions League....?

As the new season is still very young and there was little significant transfer activity over the Winter, last year's final EL table is much more reflective of the relative standing of our teams than a table after only a handful of games 5 months later. Particularly when you follow a league closely and have the understanding of the clubs involved to back that judgement up.

And I went throught the trail of logic that led me to predict you'd finish 4th earlier in the thread. Have a look back over it again.

But you used Setanta results this season as a basis and justication for your prediction that we would finish fourth. Who all would be ahead of us using the Setanta as a basis given that only one EL club has beaten us. Where would Shels finish? Where would your beloved Derry finish? Remember to use the Setanta results this season as a basis for your prediction.

[dcfcsteve]

But you used Setanta results this season as a basis and justication for your prediction that we would finish fourth. Who all would be ahead of us using the Setanta as a basis given that only one EL club has beaten us. Where would Shels finish? Where would your beloved Derry finish? Remember to use the Setanta results this season as a basis for your prediction.

If you had done as I requested and gone back through thre thread you would be fully aware of the basis on which I came-up with my view on where Linfield would finish.

In summary - in Setants you lost to last year's 4th-best EL team, beat the 3rd-best EL team once in 2 attempts, failed to beat the 2nd-best EL team in 2 attempts, and though you didn't play Cork - from what I've seen of them and yourselves I predict they would confidently beat you if you played tomorrow. That suggests that at-best you'd come 3rd or 4th in the league. And as you seem to be a bit of a bogey team for Shels, I've given them the benefit of the doubt and put you 4th. If you disagree - fine. But that's how I reached my conclusion.....

[David]

If you had done as I requested and gone back through thre thread you would be fully aware of the basis on which I came-up with my view on where Linfield would finish.

In summary - in Setants you lost to last year's 4th-best EL team, beat the 3rd-best EL team once in 2 attempts, failed to beat the 2nd-best EL team in 2 attempts, and though you didn't play Cork - from what I've seen of them and yourselves I predict they would confidently beat you if you played tomorrow. That suggests that at-best you'd come 3rd or 4th in the league. And as you seem to be a bit of a bogey team for Shels, I've given them the benefit of the doubt and put you 4th. If you disagree - fine. But that's how I reached my conclusion.....

Yet you fail to answer where would Derry finish given that you failed to beat the team that you predict would finish 4th, failed to beat the third best team in the EL and finished two places behind the team that you predict would finish 4th? (Not to mention getting beat by a team that we beat 6-0)

[dcfcsteve]

Yet you fail to answer where would Derry finish given that you failed to beat the team that you predict would finish 4th, failed to beat the third best team in the EL and finished two places behind the team that you predict would finish 4th? (Not to mention getting beat by a team that we beat 6-0)

Derry would finish 3rd - possible 2nd.

We've beaten Cork before, though wouldn't beat them every time we meet. I suspect Linfield wouldn't take any points off Cork.

Shels haven't beatn us in their last 9 attempts, whilst we've clocked up important victories against them in the last couple of years. Therefore, we'd continue taking points off them.

I suspect we'd take points off Drogheda, as our defence is solid, and they seem unable to score more than once in any game. Linfield didn't beat Drogs.

And we haven't lost a game to Linfield in recent memory.

All-in-all, I would expect our performance against the other top 3 teams in the EL to shade yours - hence we'd be a place or 2 above you.

On a general side-point, defences throughout the EL are much tighter than they are in the IL, so I could see Linfiled losing more points against weaker sides than Derry would. An IL team in the EL would generally find it tougher up-front to score than in their own league, whilst EL teams would generally find it easier to score against you. The amount of goals shipped on an average week in the IL is ridiculous. There were 8 games in the IL Premier Division on the weekend, with 31 goals in total ! Two of those wins were by 4 goal margins - incl 2nd placed Glens v 3rd placed Portadown (i.e. not a game involving a whipping-boy team). Two weeks ago, all but one of the Premier games ended 3:2 ! Linfield let in 2 goals against a rubbish Larne side on Saturday. Ok - so you've won the league already etc etc, but I couldn't see Cork needing to score 3 past Finn Harps at any point last year to ensure a win (and I suspect Larne are worse than Harps were last year) !

[wws]

Steve - the setanta results do not prove anything - its like one of these circular who's the greatest player ever arguments - impossible to prove given players in different situations eras contexts etc

setanta is a particular context - and in that the only fact that can be gleamed is that Linfield would be competitive with the better EL teams - you are the one extrapolating league hypothetical league finishes with meagre justification.

I see a pure anti Linfield agenda (at the very least bias against them) in nearly all your posts on this topic and scant footballing sense.

They're a good battling side witha positive approach and a decent manager - thats all we can say about them - none of us have any idea how they'd do in a non existent all ireland league and thats fact

[dcfcsteve]

Steve - the setanta results do not prove anything - its like one of these circular who's the greatest player ever arguments - impossible to prove given players in different situations eras contexts etc

setanta is a particular context - and in that the only fact that can be gleamed is that Linfield would be competitive with the better EL teams - you are the one extrapolating league hypothetical league finishes with meagre justification.

I see a pure anti Linfield agenda (at the very least bias against them) in nearly all your posts on this topic and scant footballing sense.

They're a good battling side witha positive approach and a decent manager - thats all we can say about them - none of us have any idea how they'd do in a non existent all ireland league and thats fact

You can see what you want/hope to see WWS. I have no anti-Linfield "bias" - I just strongly believe that the Irish League is much weaker than the EL. Within that - as by-far the IL's strongest team, I've recognised that Linfield are a good side, but not as good as a number of their fans suspect.

Messageboards are for the expression and discussion of views. I've given my view on the relative strength of Linfield versus EL teams - as I'm entled to do, and having been asked to do so by a Linfield fan. If fans of other IL clubs were involved in this discussion, I'd be happy to give my view of their placing relative to EL teams if required/requested. But they're not. And it is all my view, at the end of the day. If you don't like any of this - I suggest you avoid messageboards. But please stop trying to dscredit my views by suggesting their driven by a hidden agenda.

[David]

Derry would finish 3rd - possible 2nd.

We've beaten Cork before, though wouldn't beat them every time we meet. I suspect Linfield wouldn't take any points off Cork.

Shels haven't beatn us in their last 9 attempts, whilst we've clocked up important victories against them in the last couple of years. Therefore, we'd continue taking points off them.

I suspect we'd take points off Drogheda, as our defence is solid, and they seem unable to score more than once in any game. Linfield didn't beat Drogs.

And we haven't lost a game to Linfield in recent memory.

All-in-all, I would expect our performance against the other top 3 teams in the EL to shade yours - hence we'd be a place or 2 above you.

On a general side-point, defences throughout the EL are much tighter than they are in the IL, so I could see Linfiled losing more points against weaker sides than Derry would. An IL team in the EL would generally find it tougher up-front to score than in their own league, whilst EL teams would generally find it easier to score against you. The amount of goals shipped on an average week in the IL is ridiculous. There were 8 games in the IL Premier Division on the weekend, with 31 goals in total ! Two of those wins were by 4 goal margins - incl 2nd placed Glens v 3rd placed Portadown (i.e. not a game involving a whipping-boy team). Two weeks ago, all but one of the Premier games ended 3:2 ! Linfield let in 2 goals against a rubbish Larne side on Saturday. Ok - so you've won the league already etc etc, but I couldn't see Cork needing to score 3 past Finn Harps at any point last year to ensure a win (and I suspect Larne are worse than Harps were last year) !

As said by wws, you really do find it difficult to hide your anti Linfield sentiments. You use the Setanta Cup as a basis for your predictions and you have us finishing 4th and Derry in 3rd place. Now maybe I am just being silly here but I find it hard to take you serious given that we finished two places ahead of you in the group that you are using as the basis for these predictions.

[Krstic]

This debate's getting a bit stupid.

I think the current Linfield set-up would find it alot harder having to play against EL teams week in week out. As our league would have 4 or 5 teams capable of winning the league at the start of the season.

BUT a Linfield team playing in an AIL or EL would have better resources than most if not all EL clubs and would therefore be challenging most if not every year.

But as a Linfield fan already pointed out, Linfield are not interested in challenging themselves in an AIL, so it's pointless to talk about

[dcfcsteve]

As said by wws, you really do find it difficult to hide your anti Linfield sentiments. You use the Setanta Cup as a basis for your predictions and you have us finishing 4th and Derry in 3rd place. Now maybe I am just being silly here but I find it hard to take you serious given that we finished two places ahead of you in the group that you are using as the basis for these predictions.

I've said my bit. Think what you want, with your anti-Derry-anti-Linfield chip... . Even a number of Linfield fans have been on the Derry City messageboard discrediting you and your views when it comes to our club, so if either of us should be mindful of taking the other's views with a pinch of salt, I think that says it all.

This thread would've finished over a week ago if you didn't keep coming back constantly seeking clarification on a view that I've already clarified at least twice. I won't be clarifying it again - as it'll only give you an opportunity to tediously drag this thread out for another month. Let it go....

[David]

I've said my bit. Think what you want, with your anti-Derry-anti-Linfield chip... . Even a number of Linfield fans have been on the Derry City messageboard discrediting you and your views when it comes to our club, so if either of us should be mindful of taking the other's views with a pinch of salt, I think that says it all.

This thread would've finished over a week ago if you didn't keep coming back constantly seeking clarification on a view that I've already clarified at least twice. I won't be clarifying it again - as it'll only give you an opportunity to tediously drag this thread out for another month. Let it go....

In other words, you are posting nonsense and I have showed how you are posting nonsense so you are taking your ball and going home.

[dcfcsteve]

In other words, you are posting nonsense and I have showed how you are posting nonsense so you are taking your ball and going home.

Not at all. I'd be happy to continue having this circular debate with you - but it'd bore the tits off everyone else.

There comes a point in an online discussion where simply restating views on either side ad infinitum is pointless, nay insane. We disagree with each other - que sera, sera. You may follow the strategy of arguing a point until everyone is so bored that they'll either go away or agree with whatever you say, but I don't.

If you feel a deep inner need to claim victory in any debate, then knock yourself out with more endless postings. Me - I just see a point where you need to agree to differ.

[Not Brazil]

Derry would finish 3rd - possible 2nd.

We've beaten Cork before, though wouldn't beat them every time we meet. I suspect Linfield wouldn't take any points off Cork.

Shels haven't beatn us in their last 9 attempts, whilst we've clocked up important victories against them in the last couple of years. Therefore, we'd continue taking points off them.

I suspect we'd take points off Drogheda, as our defence is solid, and they seem unable to score more than once in any game. Linfield didn't beat Drogs.

And we haven't lost a game to Linfield in recent memory.

All-in-all, I would expect our performance against the other top 3 teams in the EL to shade yours - hence we'd be a place or 2 above you.

On a general side-point, defences throughout the EL are much tighter than they are in the IL, so I could see Linfiled losing more points against weaker sides than Derry would. An IL team in the EL would generally find it tougher up-front to score than in their own league, whilst EL teams would generally find it easier to score against you. The amount of goals shipped on an average week in the IL is ridiculous. There were 8 games in the IL Premier Division on the weekend, with 31 goals in total ! Two of those wins were by 4 goal margins - incl 2nd placed Glens v 3rd placed Portadown (i.e. not a game involving a whipping-boy team). Two weeks ago, all but one of the Premier games ended 3:2 ! Linfield let in 2 goals against a rubbish Larne side on Saturday. Ok - so you've won the league already etc etc, but I couldn't see Cork needing to score 3 past Finn Harps at any point last year to ensure a win (and I suspect Larne are worse than Harps were last year) !

And if your granny had wheels, she'd of been a stagecoach.

If's, buts and maybe's.