Originally Posted by sirhamish
I know you despise the current American administration, (that's another topic entirely), but as you see here, your figures quoted are wide-ranging, and are also wildly inaccurate.
[Hamish, don't quote entire posts please. Thanks. --adam]
On the US blogs, many Vietnam vets are now using the term "Iraqnam"
Sorry about that Adam.
Last edited by hamish; 06/04/2006 at 7:57 PM.
I know you despise the current American administration, (that's another topic entirely), but as you see here, your figures quoted are wide-ranging, and are also wildly inaccurate.
The figure is arguable, but that article is also 8 months old.
Not banned but beeped out... just a few days ago I saw John Stewart on the Daily Show asking John McCain whether his "Straight Talk Express" has been rerouted through "Bulls*it Town."In Monday's Guardian media section, I read that the word "bullsh!t" is now "officially" banned from media use in the US - on stage, TV etc.. One can get fined for using it.
Hope that doesn't give you ideas Dahamsta.
"Jacques Santini...will be greeted in every dugout of the country by "one-nil, one-nil" - Clive Tyldsley, 89th minute of France-England June 13, 2004.
"Ooooohhhh Nooooooo" Bobby Robson 91st minute.
Yours in just one source from July 2005 and no, my figures are not wildly inaccurace.
I know you despise the current American administration, (that's another topic entirely), but as you see here, your figures quoted are wide-ranging, and are also wildly inaccurate.
Even Bush the Fool said he guessed 40,000 were dead - he said that a couple of months ago. The Lancet gave a figure of 100, 000 dead civilians.
Stop floggin a dead horse mypost, the Iraqi obscenity is a lost cause. Even the remaining sane Republicans are saying it.
You're right on one thing - I do despise the current US regime.
Have a look at the anti-war march thread and listen to what CIA man Ray McGovern has to say. I posted it last night.
Every day, a new corruption is discovered and the poisonous Rethuglican cabal is coming apart at the seams. TG.
Last edited by hamish; 07/04/2006 at 2:56 PM.
I gave you a source of figures released by Iraqi officials, i.e. people there on the ground, facing the situation every day.
Even if you're 40,000 figure is accurate, it's still a lot closer to my figures than yours. Of that, roughly 40% of that figure is directly from coalition action. The other victims have been, as my source indicates, from domestic combat between insurgents and criminals, and is technically, a separate issue.
My point is that, anyone claiming that there have been 250,000, (100,000 even), civilian casualties in Iraq "by Bush and his cronies", is wildly, wildly, way off the mark.
Last edited by mypost; 07/04/2006 at 3:40 PM.
I think Hamish's point is that the over-whelming majority of those deaths wouldn't have happened at all had Iraq not been invaded. There was no insurgency under Saddam - nor was there such criminal activity.I gave you a source of figures released by Iraqi officials, i.e. people there on the ground, facing the situation every day.
Even if you're 40,000 figure is accurate, it's still a lot closer to my figures than yours. Of that, roughly 40% of that figure is directly from coalition action. The other victims have been, as my source indicates, from domestic combat between insurgents and criminals, and is technically, a separate issue.
My point is that, anyone claiming that there have been 250,000, (100,000 even), civilian casualties in Iraq "by Bush and his cronies", is wildly, wildly, way off the mark.
Bush and Co unleashed a can of worms. Even if they're not directly responsible for pulling the trigger or planting the bomb on every death that has arisen from that, they surely share at least some of the blame. Particularly as anyone who had a clue about the country warned them in advance that this type of thing could happen.
Hamish is using his personal hatred of George, to make hysterically false claims over the number of casualties, since the liberation was ordered. Are we going to continue to count all the victims of domestic atrocities in Iraq, when all the troops are gone?
There is no doubt that there was no criminal activity under Saddam, why would there be, when the punishment meted out by his regime ranged from chemical weapons (Halabja), food poisoning, and severed limbs, up to execution? Now in Iraq, all prisoners have to face is time in a detention camp. In the face of that, why have respect for law and order?
And you're right, they're not directly responsible for every death that has arisen, in fact not even half of them are from coalition actions. The blame largely rests with the insurgents and domestic criminals who are delaying the withdrawal of troops. Saddam is gone, in prison, and on trial, the country is liberated, Iraqi police are trained up, a new constitution and administration is in place, there is nothing for the coalition to stay there for anymore. If it wasn't for the insurgent attacks, the Americans and her allies would be long home now.Bush and Co unleashed a can of worms. Even if they're not directly responsible for pulling the trigger or planting the bomb on every death that has arisen from that, they surely share at least some of the blame.
For once, just once, get your facts right. It was Bush who said 40,000. Read the bloody post I posted.Hamish is using his personal hatred of George, to make hysterically false claims over the number of casualties, since the liberation was ordered. Are we going to continue to count all the victims of domestic atrocities in Iraq, when all the troops are gone?
There is no doubt that there was no criminal activity under Saddam, why would there be, when the punishment meted out by his regime ranged from chemical weapons (Halabja), food poisoning, and severed limbs, up to execution? Now in Iraq, all prisoners have to face is time in a detention camp. In the face of that, why have respect for law and order?
And you're right, they're not directly responsible for every death that has arisen, in fact not even half of them are from coalition actions. The blame largely rests with the insurgents and domestic criminals who are delaying the withdrawal of troops. Saddam is gone, in prison, and on trial, the country is liberated, Iraqi police are trained up, a new constitution and administration is in place, there is nothing for the coalition to stay there for anymore. If it wasn't for the insurgent attacks, the Americans and her allies would be long home now.
Big difference between despising Frat Boy and hating. Get real.
Your post, given the mess Iraq is in, is the hysterical one, competely out of la-la land.
What the fcuk "liberation" are you raving about??? Shi-ite death squads operating within the police force and army. Sunni death squads replying in kind. A "government" which has no power outside the Green Zone. Electricity levels, clean water, oil production, sanitation levels - all below pre-War levels. Ethnic cleansing, not only from Shi-ite to Sunni and vice versa but also non-Kurds from Kirdish areas.
Iraq is now IMPORTING OIL. FFS
Jesus Christ, mypost, the Republicans are even giving out hell about this mess - the ONE battalion "trained" in the puppet army ws revealed not to be ready - by US generals.
Where the hell are you getting your information from FFS.
Go "Information Clearing House" and read what Kevin Phillips (REPUBLICAN) wrote, check out what Francis Fukuyama (NEO-CON) recently wrote, check out what Colin Powell's sidekick, Colonel Larry Wilkerson (REPUBLICAN) wrote, check out the interview with CIA man
McGovern said in an in an interview, check out what Scott Ritter (REPUBLICAN) wrote.
Not a bloody liberal, lefty among that lot. Throw in the remarks of Paul O'Neill, Richard Clarke, Trent Lott, William Kristol, Pat Buchanan, Bill O'Reilly - all Republicans - and I don't even need to quote Democrat Hawk John Murtha - and it is painfully obvious that Iraq is a total, utter, bloody, shambles.
Check out Robert Fisk's lecture about the death tolls.
I honestly cannot understand how an intelligent man like yourself can use terms like "the country is liberated", "trained up" etc when facts clearly state otherwise.
The vast majority of the insurgency is Iraqi not Al Qaeda - everyone, from Rumsfeld to Rice to Perle have said that. Do you know better??
Since this thread is about Islam, the reason millions of Muslims are p!ssed off at the West is because for decades they have been mistreated, abused,
r!pped off by the West, particularly by the US and Britain. Check the history of "Iraq" and learn something. It's got nothing to do with "They hate our freedom or way of life" as Bush the Fool said.
Jesus Christ, even the Yanks are p!ssed off when they discovered secret torture chambers used by the government controlled militias.
All of this information is freely available on numerous sites - left, right and middle.
Before you start posting fantasy bullsh!t about Iraq, go learn something and I stick by at least 100,000 dead from this war or is The Lancet wrong too.
82% of Iraiqis want the US out, Zogby -a staggering 72 percent of US troops favoured immediate withdrawal or withdrawal within at most a year’s time.
When even the Republicans are disagreeing with you, then your points are simply rediculous and using "hysterical" bullsh!t at me only proves you're in utter denial of reality.
Even the Yanks are relying on the Madi army to control his patch - their admission and as for fcuking democracy - yeah if you believe that El Sadr and Sistani telling their followers whom to vote for is democracy. All of this has been on numerous BBC and Channel 4 programmes in recent months.
Civilian deaths from the war.
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle11674.htm
Ray McGovern interview
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12628.htm
Robert Fisk lecture
http://foot.ie/newreply.php?do=newre...ote=1&p=460662
Dr. Cesar Chelala
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12467.htm
Depleted Uranium for Dummies
Irving Wesley Hall
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12452.htm
Death Squad Democracy
Mike Whitney
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12438.htm
Col. Larry Wilkerson
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12433.htm
Kevin Phillips
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12430.htm
Iraqi Girl Blog - someone who is living there
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12405.htm
Scott Ritter
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0301-24.htm
America continues to pretend that we are building something of value in Iraq. And yet, common sense dictates that when one seeks to build on a corrupt foundation, whatever it is that is being constructed is doomed eventually to collapse. Our nation's involvement in Iraq is based on as corrupt a foundation as imaginable. We didn't go to war for sound national-security reasons (i.e., a threat that manifested itself in a form solvable only through military intervention), but rather for domestic political reasons based on ideology that exploited the fear and ignorance of the American people in the post-Sept. 11, 2001, world.
Pat Buchanan from The American Conservative
http://www.amconmag.com/2004_10_25/buchanan.html
Richard Clarke
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle6320.htm
All above, except for Fisk, Republicans/Conservaties
Sometimes I don't know why I bother.
Last edited by dahamsta; 09/04/2006 at 12:58 PM.
On a sidenote, I love the way sirhamish uses the internet. Most of us just use sports/hobby sites but he's constantly providiing me with good knowledge sites. Cheers sirhamish
Now back to the debate (or whats left of it...)
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
---
New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
But to be fair Hamish he is a heretic
I do endorse your last sentence wholeheartedly.
one of the dangerous aspects of Islam is that it transcends national borders.
For example hardly any of the Taliban regime were Afghanis. Now I don't know about you but I would rather be governed by Irish people than a Catholic from overseas!
Last edited by CollegeTillIDie; 08/04/2006 at 9:48 AM.
Bush is a fool. Doubt if he could spell heretic. Look at the way he says "nuke-yull -'rBut to be fair Hamish he is a heretic
I do endorse your last sentence wholeheartedly.
one of the dangerous aspects of Islam is that it transcends national borders.
For example hardly any of the Taliban regime were Afghanis. Now I don't know about you but I would rather be governed by Irish people than a Catholic from overseas!
I think your last sentence was in jest but I reckoned we've moved on from Papal orders - "orders which must be obeyed at all times".
BTW fundamentalist Christians are causing serious problems in the UK too. I see where quite a few schools are teaching Creationism. Reg Vardy (the Middlesboro sponsor) is building schools which are state schools really and I watched an interview with a headmaster of one of them last week who believes the bible literally. The kids are now quoting the bible in state science exams and failing as a result.
Look at all the UK channels on Sky which have these fundamentalist nuts. Saw one last night which proudly prclaimed that In Georgia, Florida and others that the Bible is now a core book for History and English classes - kids have no choice when enlisting - the Bible has to be included.
On the Revelation channel last night, the owner/Host was whinging about foreign "skivers" coming to the UK to get free houses. This channel also has frequent "scientists" debunking Darwinism and "prooving" Craetionism.
Much of this is Tony Blair's fault.
I occasionally watch these programmes - know your enemy and all that.
The Isam channel on Sky has the same kind of stuff.
Thank you so much Dodge - I try my best and nobody is more trying than meHe gives it as good as he gets it which is fair and to be respected.
After Foot.ie, I now go to the Information Clearing House - it's a brilliant website with lots of good audio, video and text information on the world. TBF it's a left of centre website but it also includes many right wing viewpoints too like the ones I showed in the above post.
I see, today, on BBC text that an Iraqi politician has said that the country is in a state of undeclared civil war. After that horrors of (originally US backed) Saddam, that's some "liberation" eh?? From killings/maimings by Saddams thugs to killings/maimings from the new State's thugs. I'm sure the Iraqis are enjoying this new "liberation".
Tweedledee the Thug has been replaced by Tweedledum the Thug.
Israeli rockets kill Palestinian kids too.
Any wonder the Islamic world hates the West. Until the Israeli/Paletinian question is addressed and the US government puts more pressure on the Israeli government, the problem will never end. Of course, anyone who says that is imediately labelled anti-Semitic. Didin't Fisk say Arabs are also Semitic?
I lved through some Catholic fundamentalism times back in the 50s and 60s Gonzo - maybe not violent but unpleasant nevertheless.Sums up my thoughts on the subject pretty well.
Islam certainly doesn't have the monopoly in this respect, as history has proved.
BTW where does the word Gonzo come from?? I've heard it used in various areas but not sure of it's origins.
Last edited by dahamsta; 09/04/2006 at 12:57 PM.
I gave you one source to emphasise my post, I don't need to provide 20-odd one-sided bleeding heart viewpoints, found on a left-wing website I may add, to the contrary.Your post, given the mess Iraq is in, is the hysterical one, competely out of la-la land.
What the fcuk "liberation" are you raving about???
Which apparantly, is GB's fault.Shi-ite death squads operating within the police force and army.
Which apparantly, is GB's fault.Sunni death squads replying in kind.
Which is also apparantly, GB's fault.Ethnic cleansing, not only from Shi-ite to Sunni and vice versa but also non-Kurds from Kirdish areas.
It is a government, democratically elected by the Iraqi people, no matter what you think of it.A "government" which has no power outside the Green Zone.
Check out Robert Fisk's lecture about the death tolls.
There's more chance of me using second-hand bogroll, than reading the Al-Qaeda recruiting material that he, and others like him, write. Ffs ,there's more balance in the anti-war Evening Herag!!
Mypost, ambassador of La-La land, the sources I posted above, yes, were from Information Clearing House, BUT were all, except, for Robert Fisk, REPUBLICAN and NEO-CONS and CIA people - so, cut out the the hypocricy about the website. You're jst attacking the messenger - read the posts.
As for Fisk, smearing him whilest producing absolutely ZERO evidence to counteract his opinions is really dumb. He has lived in the Middle East for years and knows in his little finger more about the events there than any smear merchants like you will ever know.
If you refuse to read the right wing viewpoints and use bland, shallow put downs then you are condemned to wallow in your own self imposed ignorance and not to be taken seriously.
People voted but they have no government - everyone sees that except you. Yet you persist in this shallow "democratically elected" - WTF does that mean? Why do you deny the real evidence on RTE, BBC and every goddamn media source that Iraq is in a mess, hasn't had a workable government since the election. What part of "Government controlled death squads" do you not understand?
Yes, you're right - the ponts you quoted are Bush the Fool (and his cronies) fault. The US was warned that Iraq would prove to be a mess before they attacked and they didn't listen. Cheney said they would be welcomed as liberators with flowers and he also said the insurgency is in its last throes.
Now, when you refuse to even read what the Neo-cons and Republicans say then I can't take your fantasy soundbites seriously anymore.
Go educate yourself - outside Newsmax - read a few books, check out the web/media and then I'll debate you.
Otherwise I'm just wasting my time trying to have dialogue with a right wing parrott echoing shallow and meaningless right wing soundbites. - ie "bleeding heart liberal" - so old fashioned even the Tories are embarrassed by that term and do you really understand what it means anyway? I doubt it.
There's more to democracy than sticking a finger in dye - you have to have free, not theocracy-run parties with their own private armies and politicians who can run the country - y'know provide clean water, electricity etc.
As for the words you're confused about - get a dictionary.
Hi Gonzo - replying to three of your posts. I was really referring to my time in that 50s 60s period and the memories I have of those days. Yeah, the right wing evangelicals are unbelievable - if you have the Sky set up - check out the religion part and have a listen to some of the preachers - you get the usual ACLU bashing sh!te along with a load of other crap- along with numerous requests for donations.
Yeah, when the folks who try to argue their bland and stupid viewpoints won't even read/watch/listen to the Republicans, Neo-Cons and CIS people what can you do?? It's a waste of time really but sometimes you have to keep trying..........and learning..... which they refuse to do.
Typical of Bush supporters, they live in a black/white world, everything's either 100% evil or 100% good, people vote and that's democracy without any reference to all the other parts of what democracy entails, and on and on and on. Parrot...parrot...........parrot.............
As I said, you can't argue with parrots. They revel in their simplistic jargon with out having a notion what it means but, it's safe and probably brings them comfort of a sort in this complex world we live in.
Thanks also for the Gonzo bit - I had the idea that it was a term used for the beatnick artists and folks like Hunter Thompson and so on.I believe it also refers to a type of adult entertainment too.
From the BBC website today - an interesting article on Islam and Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4750320.stm
also from todays BBC website
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4885550.stm
"There is another concern - which has become even more pressing after the upsurge in sectarian strife in the past six weeks - that large parts of the new police force are in effect under the control of Shia militias.
An attractive salary means there is no shortage of volunteers
Reports of 'death squads' wearing police or other official uniforms have become more and more common, particularly in Baghdad."
From Salon.com
Since the Iraqi elections in January, U.S. Foreign Service officers at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad have been writing a steady stream of disturbing cables describing drastically worsening conditions, say State Department officials who have seen them. Violence from incipient communal civil war is rapidly rising. Last month, there were eight times as many assassinations committed by Shiite militias as terrorist murders by Sunni insurgents. The insurgency, according to the cables, also continues to mutate. Meanwhile, President Bush's strategy of training the Iraqi police and army to take over from coalition forces -- "When they stand up, we'll stand down" -- is perversely and portentously accelerating the strife. State Department officials in the field report that Shiite militias use training as cover to infiltrate key positions. Thus the strategy to create institutions of order and security is fueling civil war.
Last edited by dahamsta; 09/04/2006 at 1:00 PM.
So, a left-wing website puts anti-war views from right-wingers on their website by chance now, do they??
You really start to tear your hair out when you read quotes like this.As for Fisk, smearing him whilest producing absolutely ZERO evidence to counteract his opinions.Ffs, Fisk may as well have a neon "anti-war" sign emblazoned on his forehead. He doesn't write opinions or articles, everything from his pen is an anti-war/Bush/USA rant, delete as applicable.
They're neutral now, are they? The BBC who once described a terrorist attack in Iraq as being carried out by "rebels", and when American troops promptly carried out a raid on suspects the next day, they were described by the same network as "gunmen". Read between the lines.Why do you deny the real evidence on RTE, BBC and every goddamn media source that Iraq is in a mess.
No it's not.Yes, you're right - the ponts you quoted are Bush the Fool (and his cronies) fault.
Latest rant over.
Last edited by mypost; 09/04/2006 at 5:47 AM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo
1. Google Kevin Phillips, Larry Wilkerson and the others I mentioned and you won't have to go to that awful, awful so-called left website. You're argument is a cop-out. If one of the brains behind the neo-cons, Fukuyama, states that Iraq was a mistake and a mess, the you haven't a leg to stand on. Ditto the others I mentioned here. We're talking people who were involved in the theory and application of the whole shebang - not a few "out on a limb" Republicans here. If these crucial and central folks admit their mistakes, then why do you continue to parrot an already lost argument?? If you think this is just a PR coup, then that just illuminates how shallow your arguments are.So, a left-wing website puts anti-war views from right-wingers on their website by chance now, do they??
You really start to tear your hair out when you read quotes like this. :Ffs, Fisk may as well have a neon "anti-war" sign emblazoned on his forehead. He doesn't write opinions or articles, everything from his pen is an anti-war/Bush/USA rant, delete as applicable.
They're neutral now, are they? The BBC who once described a terrorist attack in Iraq as being carried out by "rebels", and when American troops promptly carried out a raid on suspects the next day, they were described by the same network as "gunmen". Read between the lines.
No it's not.
Latest rant over.
Once again, no substance to your argument against Fisk - just labelling. Check out his comparison between the original mess the Brits cause in the regions which became Iraq and the current situation - frightening similarities from an historical point of view. But if you just want to label and smear then go ahead, that's all you got. which is precisely nothing.
When I see the BBC and co labelled in such fashion the I despair. That argument is straight out of the Fox "News"/Rush Limbaugh/Glen Beck/Michale Savage and co. playbook. If the US army are calling the insurgents, well, "insurgents" and "rebels" and "gunmen" the what's your beef with the BBC and the other media? If the US is negotiating with some of these insurgents, as they are at the moment, then why are you shooting (no pun intended) the messenger. It's always the media's fault isn't it?? FFS
You're right. Bush and co. didn't initiate a pre-emptive war against Iraq, didn't take note of several warnings as to the mess that was gonna happen. If you believe Bush the Fool and his cronies are not responsible for initiating the mess, then you're in the land of Oz.
As I said, I'll take your arguments seriously when you read what the CIA, Neo-Cons and Republicans have to say because I read the Media Research Centre, Brent Bozell, William Kristol and all the other right wing stuff every day along with their opponents. So, at least, I can balance my opinions with both sides of the story.
Even super neo-con William (Bill) Kristol - one of the original PNAC people - has expressed dismay over the Iraq mess. When your top guys are putting the boot in, then you're in trouble so it's no just the same as the FF etc scenario you mentioned. You don't need to go to a "left" website to learn the truth.
EVERY poll in the US has Bush in the mid-30s regarding Iraq - even the Fox "News" ones. He blew it when his "protector of the people" image was blasted over Katrina as well as Iraq. Republicans standing for the House and Senate are keeping him as far away as they can from fund raising events as they can because he's a damage factor to them getting re-elected.
Throw in the Tom Delay, Abramoff, Duke Cunningham, Liddy scandals - among many, many others - and we have a party riddled with corruption.
Fact is, Bush the Fool was a failure in every business he was involved in, he left Texas 9 billions in debt when he ended his Governorship there, he has the US at near financial breaking point with trillions of dollars debt - everything he touches, like an anti-Midas - turns to sh!t.
When you read the other side of the argument (as I have), mypost, then I'll have dialogue with you - otherwise I can't have a debate with a parrot and label-mesiter.
You've brought nothing of substance to the table. Face it.
Last edited by hamish; 09/04/2006 at 6:22 PM.
While I'm at it and since this thread is named "Islam", I've been checking out a few blogs from Baghdad over the last few months - blogs from Islamic men and women. There are more than the famous Salem Pax aka The Baghdad Blogger who's occasionally to be viewed on BBC2 Newsnight.
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Some quotes from the above - think it's a girl that writes it.
وزارة الدفاع تدعو المواطنين الى عدم الانصياع لاوامر دوريات الجيش والشرطة الليلية اذا لم تكن برفقة قوات التحالف العاملة في تلك المنطقة
The translation:
“The Ministry of Defense requests that civilians do not comply with the orders of the army or police on nightly patrols unless they are accompanied by coalition forces working in that area.”
That’s how messed up the country is at this point.
But it also brings to light other worrisome issues. The situation is so bad on the security front that the top two ministries in charge of protecting Iraqi civilians cannot trust each other. The Ministry of Defense can’t even trust its own personnel, unless they are “accompanied by American coalition forces”.
Three years and the electricity is worse than ever. The security situation has gone from bad to worse. The country feels like it’s on the brink of chaos once more- but a pre-planned, pre-fabricated chaos being led by religious militias and zealots.
School, college and work have been on again, off again affairs. It seems for every two days of work/school, there are five days of sitting at home waiting for the situation to improve
Before, we’d get refugees in Baghdad and surrounding areas… Now, Baghdadis themselves are looking for ways out of the city… out of the country. The typical Iraqi dream has become to find some safe haven abroad.
Three years later and the nightmares of bombings and of shock and awe have evolved into another sort of nightmare. The difference between now and then was that three years ago, we were still worrying about material things- possessions, houses, cars, electricity, water, fuel… It’s difficult to define what worries us most now. Even the most cynical war critics couldn't imagine the country being this bad three years after the war... Allah yistur min il rab3a (God protect us from the fourth year)
The above from a girl living In Baghdad - no left, no right, no spin, just a person living there. Amazing how her points match Fisk's analysis exactly. Just shows how much he knows of the situation - but then he's been there many times - outside the Green Zone too, at the mortuaries and hispitals- unlike the bullsh!tters who knock him.
Some more blogs from Iraqis still living there - if one could call it living
Some comments and pictures contained in some of them may cause distress
http://www.messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
http://glimpseofiraq.blogspot.com/
http://usmistakes.blogspot.com/
http://americansoniraq.blogspot.com/
While I'm at it and since this thread is named "Islam", I've been checking out a few blogs from Baghdad over the last few months - blogs from Islamic men and women. There are more than the famous Salem Pax aka The Baghdad Blogger who's occasionally to be viewed on BBC2 Newsnight.
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Some quotes from the above - think it's a girl that writes it.
وزارة الدفاع تدعو المواطنين الى عدم الانصياع لاوامر دوريات الجيش والشرطة الليلية اذا لم تكن برفقة قوات التحالف العاملة في تلك المنطقة
The translation:
“The Ministry of Defense requests that civilians do not comply with the orders of the army or police on nightly patrols unless they are accompanied by coalition forces working in that area.”
That’s how messed up the country is at this point.
But it also brings to light other worrisome issues. The situation is so bad on the security front that the top two ministries in charge of protecting Iraqi civilians cannot trust each other. The Ministry of Defense can’t even trust its own personnel, unless they are “accompanied by American coalition forces”.
Three years and the electricity is worse than ever. The security situation has gone from bad to worse. The country feels like it’s on the brink of chaos once more- but a pre-planned, pre-fabricated chaos being led by religious militias and zealots.
School, college and work have been on again, off again affairs. It seems for every two days of work/school, there are five days of sitting at home waiting for the situation to improve
Before, we’d get refugees in Baghdad and surrounding areas… Now, Baghdadis themselves are looking for ways out of the city… out of the country. The typical Iraqi dream has become to find some safe haven abroad.
Three years later and the nightmares of bombings and of shock and awe have evolved into another sort of nightmare. The difference between now and then was that three years ago, we were still worrying about material things- possessions, houses, cars, electricity, water, fuel… It’s difficult to define what worries us most now. Even the most cynical war critics couldn't imagine the country being this bad three years after the war... Allah yistur min il rab3a (God protect us from the fourth year)
The above from a girl living In Baghdad - no left, no right, no spin, just a person living there. Amazing how her points match Fisk's analysis exactly. Just shows how much he knows of the situation - but then he's been there many times - outside the Green Zone too, at the mortuaries and hispitals- unlike the bullsh!tters who knock him.
Some more blogs from Iraqis still living there - if one could call it living
Some comments and pictures contained in some of them may cause distress - or embarrassment for those who don't want to know the truth
http://www.messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/
http://glimpseofiraq.blogspot.com/
http://usmistakes.blogspot.com/
http://americansoniraq.blogspot.com/
Interesting comment from a US soldier in this one
http://iraqdemo.blogspot.com/
A Kurdish blog with those cartoons
http://kardox.blogspot.com/
There are loads of others.
Last edited by hamish; 09/04/2006 at 7:35 PM.
Thank you so much RDB for your kind thoughts - it gives me no pleasure, though, to berate anyone but, having read opinions from the left, right and centre, I have a dreadful fear that this crisis - or these crises - will magnify and engulf so many of us on this little orb and mostly because the people who have the power - however transient that power is - and those who mindlessly support them - refuse to use historical context and/or let reality intrude into their decisions.MP & Bush apologists, you've lost this thread, 'hook, line and sinker' to Sir H. He's come up with sites, Google didn't know about, FFS.
Bush & his cohorts are scum of the highest order and deserve all they get for invading other people's countries.
From a selfish point of view, if the US goes down - militarily and economically (they're both intrinsically linked) WE go down to. Maybe not as much in the past 'cos we have a thin veneer of protection from the Euro but an imploding US will cause devastating consequences for much of this planet.
The US thumbs its nose at the (admittedly flawed) Kyoto agreement, International Court, Geneva convention (see also the UK's John Reid's comments last week?), the United Nations plus the US is also diluting freedom in its own media, internal spying on even groups like the Quakers and growing underclass poverty are other areas where the implosion is happening.
I reckon there might be one way the Mullahs of Iran and their puppet Prime Minister could score a huge diplomatic victory here - let them say, "OK, we'll give the IAEA complete and permanent access to our nuclear facilities, You can video and record everything, go anywhere at anytime, no restrictions of any kind".
What then could Bush and co. do about it?? The big problem the US has is The Iranian Burse with euros as its base - that's what's scares the US regime sh!tless because it starts to impact drastically on the dollar. Already Saudia Arabia, China, Russia and India have said that they are giving great consideration to The Iranian Burse. Remember, Saddam proposed the same course of action with regard to the Iraqi oil - trading in euros. With the dollar on life support now since Nixon's time and the decisions he made on the dollar, it wouldn't take a lot for devastating consequences to happen to the US economy if the euro gains even more strength.
So it's nothing to do, really, with an Iranian bomb, as Clinton (or someone connected to him) said, "It's the economy, stupid".
The Mullahs own hubris is equally as infuriating as the US hubris here. The Israelis are also making the situation worse too with their bellicose statements matching the Iranian PM ignorant uttering. I mean, what is the only Middle Eastern country with The Bomb?? Why, Israel, of course. And the US is hog-tied to them financially and militarily.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...237839,00.html
which links with..............
US President George W. Bush said he hoped to resolve the nuclear dispute with Iran with diplomacy, but warned Tehran he would "use military might" if necessary to defend Israel.
"The threat from Iran is, of course, their stated objective to destroy our strong ally Israel. That's a threat, a serious threat. It's a threat to world peace," the US president said after a speech defending the war in Iraq.
"I made it clear, and I'll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally Israel," said Bush, who was apparently referring to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's call for the destruction of Israel.
God help us all and the Iranian civilians in particular, if the US and/or Israel launch uranium-coated "bunker busters" against Iranian targets. The worldwide consequences will be devastating.
Last edited by hamish; 10/04/2006 at 12:14 AM.
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