QuoteThis might end it - think I heard that Chirac has dropped the plan.
Current Affairs forums die because people use rhetoric and emotive language to make their point, rather than... making their point. This forum will not go the same way, so again: prove to me that comments like the above contribute something - anything - to the debate, and I'll allow it. Keep arguing the point without following through on my request, and I won't allow any more. Clear?
This might end it - think I heard that Chirac has dropped the plan.
Plan has been dropped. Well done to all the French Workers who stood up for their terms and conditions of employment, and won. I repeat again, more's the pity that we wouldn't do the same here.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
..I look forward to us all having the same debate in 10 years time as the plucky French 'workers' (though they are an increasingly endangered species') celebrate another pyrrhic vistory that will keep their country in the economic sh!t for yet another decade.
Some day the French will wake up and realise that the only people who are being really hurt by the lack of structural reform in their economy is themselves....
one day perhaps, but for now, they're happy so leave them be.
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
---
New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
Oh - I get it ! Beacuse I once worked for Disney I must be incapable of either free thought or indeed criticism of the company themslves....! If only you knew jebus, if only you knew....Originally Posted by jebus
The world is not, as you put it, sick of Disney hand-drawn animation. There are still the odd successes in hand-drawn animation - but the main film studios in the world have ALL progressed onto CGG rather than traditional animation. Hence the success of non Disney films like Shrek, and the numerous Pixar films, which have only recently become the property of Disney. So it is not just a simple snubbing of anything with the Disney stamp on it. Ironically, Disney only ever tried to make one computer generated film on their own, and stuck at the hand-drawn game (e.g. Treasure Planet) much longer than any other major studio - but that wouldn't tally with your anti-Disney rant. So its ridiculous to assume that this is some sort of popular apathy at the product of Disney.
As for your Studio Gibli example - so the French animators should all move to Japan if they want to continue in their specific line of work ?? That's the only conclusion I can draw from your response. At least Disney offered to retrain them within the same studios ! Also - I'd confidently predict that the vast majority of people in the Western world or India haven't heard of Studio Gibli, and couldn't name you one of their productions. That doesn't denigrate their product by any means - but just shows what fringe players they are in world cinematic productions.
Firstly - as it lists in every post I make, I live in London ! I keep closely in touch with the country to still have a valid opinion on it though, before you attempt to knock anything I say as a result purely of my current location. Secondly, there is undoubtedly more money in Ireland than at ANY other time in the country's history. Only an idiot would try to deny this. True - a large chunk of consumer activity may well be debt-funded. This is nothing new to some people though - I remember my aunty in Roscommon being unable to get her head around the fact that the people from Foxrock who owned the holiday home opposite hadn't paid for their carpets yet ! This was the early 1980's. But are you genuinely trying to suggest that the only diffrence between the Ireland of the 1980's and the Ireland of now is our level of personal debt ?? Are you seriously trying to suggest that there AREN'T huge amounts of employment opportunities now that simply didn't exist 10,15, 20 years ago ? That we don't have continuous population growth for the first time since the famine ? That we don't have Irish people returning to the country due to the opportunities and wealth being created here - rather than leaving as we all did for over a century ? So "The Celtic Tiger hasn't left Irish citizens better off" ?? Feck me jebus - which ireland do YOU live in.......??
You think the French are happy ???
They are the most psychologically troubled nation in Europe ! They continually fret about their importance within the world, and the fact that their language and culture is in freefall from a position of world influence to one of increasing irrelevance. Their economy is fecked, their complete local of social cohesion was exposed in the riots they faced a few months ago, their football teams gone to sh!t again and they've even managed to feck-up a vintage wine yield this year !
They don't sit around weeping and gnashing their teeth all day long, but the underlying public mood that I've experienced amongst French people is one of an under-lying swense of restlessness and simmering discontent. Happy people don't riot.
Last edited by dahamsta; 11/04/2006 at 10:24 AM.
The only ones being hurt are employers profits. The french workers still have their terms and conditions intact, and still have many more benefits that supposedly more developed economies can only dream of.
I know the UK, USA, Irish and now the French Government see the ideal as píss on everyone and everything to get big profits for business, which is what makes the stand by the French people all the more impressive. They obviously have higher values than the bottom line.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Jesus, talk about mass generalisations
No but protestors who get what they want get some happiness surely?
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
---
New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
Employees in Ireland have a standard 6 month probationary period with 1 months notice should employer want to terminate the employment.
In France the government initially wanted a 2 year probationary period for staff under 26 years of age but changed this to 12 months but with 1 months notice.
Open question to all:
- Is the irish system fair?
- Would you like the irish system changed to 1 year probationary period?
I accept that protest happens to force change but I really do not understand why the french youth protesting. I fail to see what difference this would make to them.
btw i think the level of debate is fine here even if it is going around in circles...
But you don't have to get it Pete. It doesn't really affect you
Why should all countries have the same systems? It may work in Ireland, there's may work in France and who decides what the indicators of success are in the first place?
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
---
New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
See through your own rhetoric Macy. Employers profits will not be hurt here - if they are, they'll just relocate.
The people who are REALLY hurting here are the 10%+ for whom there is no work. Job rules are all very well - but only if you actually HAVE a job in the first place ! If those very job rules make it less likely that new jobs will be created in your economy, YOU'RE the one who's hurting. Not the proverbial "big business" who will just up-sticks to China.
This has a massively disproportionate impact upon France's immigrant population. Strange, therefore, that they should find themselves so willing to riot nationally only a few months ago. Quelle surprise...
The other groups of people hurting are people approaching the end of their working life - who know that if they lose their current job no-one else will employ them so they're finished economically and financially - and students who find that after years of study to get a degree, they still can't get a feckin' job as they don't exist.
And as Pete has ably outlined - what was so unreasonable about what Villepin was proposing ? Hardly a return to indentured slavery.
So any idea that the fat cats of business are being kept a bit slimmer here is just naive wishful thinking. Those who can move to take advantage of economic conditions - like businesses - will. Those who get left behind - like the poorest sections of society - are the ones who get hurt.
They'll do that anyway. Do you think any change in probation periods will stop companies moving? Liberal labour laws have been fook all good for workers in many industries in the UK and Ireland. Infact they've made it easier for them to up and leave, grant aid still in wallet.
This is typical of the line taken by the former left, and those still trying to hide under it's banners. Helping big business maximise their profits at workers expense is actually really helping the poorest members of society, and if I say it often enough people will actually believe it. Give them tax breaks, failing services won't matter, as the workers will be okay once they're earning minimum wage.
All liberal labour laws have done is make exploitation of workers easier, meant a huge decline in full time jobs, and even garanteed hours part time jobs. Look around the UK and see how many job annoucements are actually for full time jobs that would enable a family to be raised on the wage. When a new asda opens, and some Blairite cuts the ribbon saying how x number of jobs will be created, half the number at the very least. That is the type of situation the French are trying to fight, and something that will hit home here too, if/when the economic boom ends.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
I think it is down to the fact that the french people have a history of standing up for themselves. they dont just lie down and die just cause their government tells them to. This country is the opposite. we will always do whatever we are told.politicians know if they brass neck out a crisis it will always blow over. when was the last time a politician in this country resigned over anything? I for one admire the stance taken by the french students and admire the fact that they were listened to eventually by the politicians. the only similar situation I can remember here is when the government tried to increase alowance for working couples. says it all really about the "I'm alright jack" culture in this country. altho here we dont protest in the streets...we just ring joe duffy....
Don't shoot me - I'm just the messenger here but here are a few letters to The Guardian on Tuesday regarding this matter.
A few interesting takes on this argument.
Despite what many people may think (The French go marching into the past, April 10), the French have managed to create a net new 1.8m jobs since 1997. Over the same period Britain created 2.1m jobs (according to OECD figures). Not so different, despite the alleged rigidities across the channel. There is little statistical evidence that French unemployment has depressed wage growth. Your graph gives nominal wage growth, but since France has had lower inflation than the UK over this period, real wage growth is approximately the same in both countries. More telling would have been to compare the figures on GDP growth with the jobless rate. It seems that GDP growth in excess of 2% a year is needed before unemployment starts to come down. But a story about growth and unemployment doesn't really tie in with a flexibility story does it?
Part of the reason why the youth unemployment rate is high in France is that there are so many in higher education - more so than in the UK. The unemployment rate is the number of unemployed, divided by the number of unemployed plus those in employment. Those in higher education do not figure in the count. But more people at university makes the numbers in employment lower and so raises the unemployment rate.
Also there is hardly any professional economist who thinks employment protection policies have an effect on the overall unemployment rate. Such protection makes firms reluctant to hire and makes it difficult to fire. The net result for employment is that the two offset each other. While it may affect the mix of employment - protecting older workers against younger workers - the aggregate effect on unemployment - according to countless studies - is close to zero. The solutions for the French economy are not nearly so simple as adopting some mythical notion of flexibility.
Dr Jonathan Wadsworth
Centre for economic performance, LSE
Notice he doesn't give figures for all these students in Higher Education to make comparisons???
Unemployment is higher in France than in the UK because in France we have not parked 2.7 million people on long-term sickness benefits, but have only 1 million people on RMI (the minimum income scheme created for the long-term unemployed). Bring the difference, ie 1.7 million people, back into the unemployed category and the UK miracle of low unemployment is looking suddenly like an optical illusion.
Pierre Aury
London
Whatever its symbolic role as an indication of economic philosophy, employment law plays only a minor role in determining investment. Far more important is the quality of national infrastructure, access to markets, rates of productivity and government assistance - all factors which give France an advantage over Britain. In fact, despite its hire-and-fire economy, Britain has seen lower levels of foreign direct investment and overall investment, and far lower levels of productivity growth than France in recent years.
The reason for the UK's slight edge in overall growth has little to do with flexible labour markets and much more with interventionist government policy, the large devaluation of the pound under John Major, the vast increase in public spending carried out by Gordon Brown since 2000, and easy monetary policies, which have made British consumers almost as debt ridden as Americans - all at a time when French monetary and fiscal policy was constrained by the rules of the single currency. In fact, French employment law has actually been made much more flexible in recent years without any noticeable effect.
Bernard Moss
London
Why is it disturbing that only a third of the French population thinks the free-market system is the best way for the world in the future? Maybe they realise the market promises only a future of relentless pressure to drive down wages, pensions and benefits in the face of increasing global competition?
Declan O'Neill
Oldham, Lancs
As usual the French government has shown itself to be a Meduse molle** in appeasing mob rule on the youth job law and allowing democracy to be subverted.
Stan Labovitch
Windsor, Berkshire
**What's that when it's at home???
Last edited by hamish; 15/04/2006 at 10:32 AM.
Interesting stuff. I must admit, during all of the above debate, I was wondering about how the French and UK govts actually counted their unemployed. The reason being that I remember that during the '80's it seemed like the Thatcher government found a new way to stop counting various groups of unemployed every other month. The points raised above show the difficulty of comparing two countries unemployment rates, and of assuming that changes in labor laws must be responsible for lower unemployment, since the latter (allegedly) followed the former.
Peugot announced yesterday they were closing their Coventry plant and moving production next year to France. The reasons? Cheaper labour and transport costs.
Kinda disproves a few wanna be Friedmans on this thread....
Would this have been done when 35 hour working week law exisited in France?
I don't see the full facts been described anywhere but wouldn't be surprised if production being moved to existing & newer factory in France which is more advanced.
nope, they are expanding production at an existing plant in Poissy.
"Peugeot blamed the high cost of making cars at the British plant. The company said each car built in England costs €415 ($585) more to produce than at its factory in Poissy, France." "Mr. Grote blamed a series of factors for the demise of the British auto industry. "I think it's foreign competitors and the fact that the English work force is expensive," he said"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/Business
ie. more expensive than those lazy and inefficient french you were giving out about.
the english staff being laid off are threatening a picket on peugeot dealerships, no doubt pete and his pals will be giving out about the lazy english next.
That is what i suggested it was likely they were doing i.e. cheaper to run 1 large plant that 2 separate ones. Poissy could be newer factory thats been updated with modern production equipment.
what bit of 'cheaper labour and transport costs' are you struggling with?
despite your invective, the first major piece of industrial news to effect france since the strikes has gone their way. france is considered a better place to manufacture than flexible england.
sorry to rain on your perfect economic theory.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks