Protests in France

[Macy]

This 4.3% unemployment rate is a killer

No, but our health service is compared to the French.

[dcfcsteve]

More importantly, you're going down the road of blaming France's rate of unemployment on the French unemployed. If only those layabouts would get on their bicyclettes and accept McJobs with reduced or no job security, everything would be hunky-dory? I bet minimum wage legislation must get rightly up your nose as well.

The 10% or whatever it is of the French workforce who are unemployed are SYMPTOMS of a fúcked economy - they're not the CAUSE of it.

Nightdub - it should be clear from my posts that I'm saying that the blame for France having such high unemployment lies with the fecked-up structure of its economy. I've stated that numerous times now - can't see how you can accuse me of blaming the French people. Responsibility for changing the economy rests with the government.

I did say that if the French are violently requesting change (which they're not - they're violently resisting it) then the change they should be demanding is for the type of changes that will create more jobs for their country. They're doing the opposite. Bottom line is that France needs a very strong leader with vision to push through the changes that will get the country off its kness.

No, but our health service is compared to the French.

????

Great - when the 10%+ of the country who are unemployed get stressed/depressed/suicidal there's a handy health service there to cheer them up. They must be very grateful....

[jebus]

Great - when the 10%+ of the country who are unemployed get stressed/depressed/suicidal there's a handy health service there to cheer them up. They must be very grateful....

Or aonther way of looking at it is when the 10%+ have an accident, lets say they break a foot, they at least have a bed waiting for them at the end of their wait (which incidently isn't the 5 hours+ you have to sit in accident and emergency here)

[dcfcsteve]

nonsense. the french are overwhelmingly against this neo-liberal experiment. they chose stability over flexibility, a choice we never got.

there is no 'right' economic model that fits all and the french are happy with 15% unemployment, so whats your problem?

The stability the French people are choosing is for a stable and consistently high unemployment rate. That's all. Companies are leaving France left, right and centre due to the fecked-up structures within their economy. I'll give you an example.

I used to work for Disney. As you know - Disney was the leading creater of animated films. However - the world has moved-on from the days of hand-drawn cartoon-style films, and people these days are only interested in watching computer generated animated films. God knows Disney tried to cling-on to the old way - and lost a fortune. Anyways - it was therefore inevitable that the old-fashioned hand-drawn animators within Disney were in a perilous emoplyment situation. It was recognised that these people have superb skills, and the company was keen to see those transferred over to the world of computer graphics. So the ones based in the US, UK were offered (and many took) retraining to enable them to transfer their art to the new world situation. For others, computer generated would always be against their 'art', so they took redundancy packages. Then there were the French animators. They refused to accept that the world had grown tired of hand-drwan animated films (the box office stats are fairly conclusive on this), went on strike, and created one hell of a stink. Given France's archaic employment laws, it took ages to get this sorted out. As a result of this experience, Disnbey just thought 'feck this' and closed down its French animation operation in its entirety. No retraining for them in the new world of computer generated graphics. The world had grown tired of the very specialised skills these people had - but they refused to see or accept that, and refused to re-train into an area where they WOULD have the job security they were craving to defend. Jobs, and skills, lost to the french economy. This type of situation is being re-created across France every single week of the year. And it's getting worse.

So it may be the French people's choice to not see the economic wood for the trees - but comparing Ireland to France, I know which economic situation I'd feel happier with. I suppose you'd rather go back 20 years in Ireland to the days of 15-20% unemployment ourselves, and the embarrasment of having to have telethons and rock concerts in a pathetic attempt to magic-up some jobs......

The French are happy with high unemployment ??? Yeah - clearly.....

[dcfcsteve]

Or aonther way of looking at it is when the 10%+ have an accident, lets say they break a foot, they at least have a bed waiting for them at the end of their wait (which incidently isn't the 5 hours+ you have to sit in accident and emergency here)

Again - the uinemployed of France must be grateful for such small mercies.....

Other countries in Europe have health systems equal to or better than the French (e.g. Scandinavia), and do so with modern economic and employment structures. So your point is irrelevant - France's heath system is not a direct result of it's employment or economic structures. It's purely because they trouser more of people's income in tax.

And if France continues to struggle economically, and adds an increasing number of unemployed to its other economic dependents (i.e. its fast-aging population), don't be surprised if their health service funding reaches a crunch at some point, and the system you admire comes under immense financial strain/partial collapse. The numbers have to add-up some how.

[Macy]

It's as relevant as you suggesting that Frances unemployment is totally down to Labour Laws that protect workers whilst Irelands is purely down to the continued relaxation of them/ non-enforcement by FF/PD Government.

[dcfcsteve]

It's as relevant as you suggesting that Frances unemployment is totally down to Labour Laws that protect workers whilst Irelands is purely down to the continued relaxation of them/ non-enforcement by FF/PD Government.

Whattttt ????

Labour law has a direct and incontravertible impact upon employment/unemployment.

Labour laws DO NOT have a direct and incontravertible impact upon state provision of healthcare (save for the small area where employment and health car overlaps). That's an issue for other areas of government policy - particulary tax.

What is so difficult to understand here ?

W

[jebus]

I used to work for Disney. As you know - Disney was the leading creater of animated films. However - the world has moved-on from the days of hand-drawn cartoon-style films, and people these days are only interested in watching computer generated animated films. God knows Disney tried to cling-on to the old way - and lost a fortune. Anyways - it was therefore inevitable that the old-fashioned hand-drawn animators within Disney were in a perilous emoplyment situation. It was recognised that these people have superb skills, and the company was keen to see those transferred over to the world of computer graphics. So the ones based in the US, UK were offered (and many took) retraining to enable them to transfer their art to the new world situation. For others, computer generated would always be against their 'art', so they took redundancy packages. Then there were the French animators. They refused to accept that the world had grown tired of hand-drwan animated films (the box office stats are fairly conclusive on this), went on strike, and created one hell of a stink. Given France's archaic employment laws, it took ages to get this sorted out. As a result of this experience, Disnbey just thought 'feck this' and closed down its French animation operation in its entirety. No retraining for them in the new world of computer generated graphics. The world had grown tired of the very specialised skills these people had - but they refused to see or accept that, and refused to re-train into an area where they WOULD have the job security they were craving to defend. Jobs, and skills, lost to the french economy. This type of situation is being re-created across France every single week of the year. And it's getting worse.

So it may be the French people's choice to not see the economic wood for the trees - but comparing Ireland to France, I know which economic situation I'd feel happier with. I suppose you'd rather go back 20 years in Ireland to the days of 15-20% unemployment ourselves, and the embarrasment of having to have telethons and rock concerts in a pathetic attempt to magic-up some jobs......

Yeah damn those French refusing to give in their American betters. And given that you worked for Disney I'm not surprsied at the party line you tow out on how the world was sick of hand drawn animation. The correct thing to say there was, the world was sick of Disney scripted hand drawn animation. I think the Studio Gibli team, in Japan have proven that well scripted stories, coupled with top notch hand drawn animation still have a huge market in the world today. But far be it for myself and the French animators to fly in the face of mass culture.

Oh and which Ireland do you live in? Because I'd like to know where I can find this fantastic economic situation you're talking about. As far as I can see very few of us have a lot of cash in hand, so to speak, apart from the D4 crowd, but maybe thats the Ireland you live in. The Celtic Tiger hasn't left Irish Citizens better off, just left them in a LOT of debt. Speaking of which, when I was living and working in France as far as I could tell from the talks I had with my French friends, both employed and unemployed, they're didn't seem to be the same level of bank lending, or credit card debt, in the country. They certainly don't have the 'borrowing culture' that we have become acustomed to in this country, but I suppose we have to project that superior economy air somehow, eh Steve?

[pete]

There may be a lot things wrong in the irish economy but i'll swop 15-20% unemployment for 4% any day. I came out of college in 95 & was difficult to get decent job. That is not the same now.

Kids these days are too used to the good times so need something to moan about.

[Roverstillidie]

There may be a lot things wrong in the irish economy but i'll swop 15-20% unemployment for 4% any day. I came out of college in 95 & was difficult to get decent job. That is not the same now.

and i would prefer their hospitals, public transport, roads and job security. we could do this all day.

[pete]

and i would prefer their hospitals, public transport, roads and job security. we could do this all day.

What is job security?

[Roverstillidie]

What is job security?

when you can only be sacked if you deserve it (disciplinary reasons etc) or in extreme economic conditions, not because of poor management planning and/or a slight economic dip. ie, dont allow firms to play chess with peoples lives.

looks like the protestors won, a great victory for people power against the globalised corporate juggernaut.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4895164.stm

[pete]

when you can only be sacked if you deserve it (disciplinary reasons etc) or in extreme economic conditions, not because of poor management planning and/or a slight economic dip. ie, dont allow firms to play chess with peoples lives.

So you would force a company to keep all their staff employed even if no work for them & risk the jobs of everyone in the company?

You can't just say you should keep your job as mistake made by management or others. Need to join the real world. Communism is dead.

[laurent]

What is job security?

15% unemployment .(23 % for under 25)

a great victory for people power .

the "people" work for 1000 € / month, when they work ?

where do you live Roverstillidie ?
i'm ready to exchange my "hospitals, public transport, roads and job security"

sorry for my bad english, but if i could speak better, i'd be working in Ireland

[Roverstillidie]

the point i am making pete is there is no 'one size fits all' economic model, and different countries for various reasons have different priorities as their populations will accept differeing levels of flexibility/expolitation.

trying to ensure that companies dont take the attitude 'sure we can sack him if we dont like him' and plan staffing levels correctly does not make you a communist. stability in the labour market is a profoundly important part of any economy, and the french have overwhelmingly voted with their feet on this one. would it be good for an economy if 10% of the labour force werent sure would they be in employment next month?

is change necessary in france? yes. was this law the way to go about it? evidently not. would it drive down wages and make staff more compliant? of course, that was the point. why of why would anyone accept that level of assault on their wages, conditions and pensions without putting up a fight? some vague neo-liberal economic promise of more jobs for less wages?

laurent, you say people work for €1,000 per month. How much less would it be if this law was passed? €800 per month? how is that good for the french youth?

[dahamsta]

Roverstilidie, pete, and anyone else that's at it: Can we drop the left- and right-wing rhetoric and stick to facts and discussion please? Otherwise I'm going to have to close this.

[Roverstillidie]

Roverstilidie, pete, and anyone else that's at it: Can we drop the left- and right-wing rhetoric and stick to facts and discussion please? Otherwise I'm going to have to close this.

why? we are discussing the underlying reason behind the protests is a non-abusive manner? it is a left/right debatate....

[dcfcsteve]

and i would prefer their hospitals, public transport, roads and job security. we could do this all day.

But the 2 are NOT mutually exclusive !!

It is possible to combine low unemployment with excellent infrastructure, health care, job security etc. Look at Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Switzerland.

Ireland has gone from a poor second world nation to a leading first world one in a decade. Of course our infrastructure etc will lag behind - motorways and rail networks take decades to build-up, not a couple of years.

But the fundamebntal point is that France's economy is fecked-up primarily because of the out-dated employment structures of the country. That is completely independent and not inter-related to their health service or transport infrastructure. It IS possible to have low employment, job security AND good health care etc. Stop trying to connect the two as being mutually inter-dependent

[dahamsta]

why? we are discussing the underlying reason behind the protests is a non-abusive manner?

Tell you what, you prove to me that comments about globalised corporate juggernauts and the death of communism contribute something - anything - to the debate, and I'll allow it.

[Roverstillidie]

Tell you what, you prove to me that comments about globalised corporate juggernauts and the death of communism contribute something - anything - to the debate, and I'll allow it.

the death of communism is nothing to do with me, but a law lobbied for by the french business confederation and supported by MNC's in France is part of a globalised corporate juggernaut as far as im concerned