I think I'll stay with my mini-windmill idea though.Originally Posted by klein4
- just in case.
Bit of a difference between energy required to run a parking meter & boil a tank of water for a shower. In countries such as Greece its a warm climate so don't need such hot water for a shower unlike the irish climate. The amount of daylight hours here is a lot less so need battery to store the energy so can have a hot shower in the morning.
There is however a lot of wind & hot air in Ireland.
That's me ok so.
Little bit of self-deprecating humour there.
DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS MARINE
AND NATURAL RESOUCES
Wind Energy Information
Overview
In Ireland, electricity generation from renewable energy based technologies, including wind powered technologies, are not as yet competitive with electricity generated from the most efficient generating plant and in consequence market support is required. The additional costs are passed on to final electricity customers through a Public Service Obligation (PSO) levy. Therefore, Ireland has placed emphasis on competition in order to deliver renewables based electricity at lowest cost. This process ensures that the customer incurs the smallest price increase on their utility bills through the PSO levy.
Policy
Policy on renewables was reviewed in 1999 with the publication of the “Green Paper on Sustainable Energy”. The Green Paper included a decision to support the building of up to 500 Megawatts (MW) of renewable energy based electricity plant, primarily wind powered, to be connected to the electricity network by 2005. Following the receipt of state aids approval in late 2004, the 500MW target was revised upwards to 718MW to include support for offshore wind (50MW), Biomass CHP (28MW) and additional support for other onshore technologies. The bulk of this revised target will be implemented in the main through the offer of contracts under this Department’s Alternative Energy Requirement (AER) Programme and the liberalised green electricity market mechanism.
Wind Energy technology
Although pioneered in the 19th century, the technology to generate electricity from wind energy only began to receive serious attention in the past 30 years. The wind turbines developed over the past few decades are based on the deign of the old windmills which once dotted the country–side. The modern turbine is on average 45 – 65 metres in height and the wind is captured by the rotation of the wind turbine's rotor blades.
A single turbine usually has three blades and these can travel from 50 to 70 metres a second at the tip. In recent years there has been a dramatic improvement in the design, output and efficiency of wind turbines. At the same time the costs associated with these developments have fallen sharply. The advances in the technology have resulted in the reduction in the cost of electricity generation from this resource.
In the modern era Ireland’s first windfarm was located at Bellacorrick, Co Mayo and dates back to 1992. Since then the number has risen to 45 on-shore windfarms and 1 offshore wind plant in commercial operation, with a total installed capacity of 365 Megawatts. These projects produce enough electricity on average to power up to the equivalent of 230,000 households throughout Ireland.
Costs
The costs associated with the construction of a wind energy project are considerable and on average equate to €1.1 million per installed turbine (i.e. 850kw machine). Costs relate to:
Ø Planning permission (for the construction works and possibly the grid connection/overheads lines
Ø Civil/construction works
Ø Turbine(s)/generator/switchgear etc.
Ø Grid connection costs
Ø Land lease (if applicable) and other costs.
Technical Issues
The wind resource is random and cannot increase or decrease the electricity generated in immediate response to consumer demand. The current support target for wind-powered projects does not raise serious technical issues for system stability. However planning for future programmes at increased penetration levels of wind powered electricity generating plant does raise significant technical issues, which must be addressed in order to maintain system security for electricity consumers. The Commission for Energy Regulation (www.cer.ie) is currently examining issues of immediate relevance regarding the grid code for wind-powered generators.
Other sources of Information:
Ø The Renewable Energy Information Office (REIO), a service of Sustainable Energy Ireland, has further information on the technical and planning aspects of renewable energy projects. The contact number for REIO is (023) 42193; e-mail renewables@reio.ie;
Ø DG TREN, European Commission - the web site for the Transport and Energy Directorate of the European Commission. Has information on renewable energy policy at European Union level, details of EC Programmes, relevant Publications and status of renewable energy technologies across member states
Ø The Irish Wind Energy Association (IWEA), c/o Arigna, Carrick on Shannon, Co Roscommon offers advice on wind energy issues generally. Tel. 078 46072; email: office@iwea.com;
Ø Meitheal na Gaoithe, 42 Parliament Street, Kilkenny represent the interests of farmers and others based in rural communities who want to participate in the Irish renewable energy industry, particularly in wind energy projects. Tel. 056 – 7752111;
Ø Commission for Energy Regulation (CER), is responsible for overseeing the liberalisation of Ireland’s energy sector. The CER also issues the authorisations and licences which are required for all electricity generating plants (Tel 01 4000800);
Ø ESB National Grid – information on grid connection application process for wind generators, new grid code for wind and dynamic modelling of wind turbine generators.
Who is this guy, Trapper Tony?
Not true. Bald student has already pointed out one problem with wind power, but there's a much bigger one.
You cannot have more than about 10% of your power coming from wind.
I don't seem to be able to explain this well, so I've chopped down what I was going to post to these two basic facts:
Those two things make for some big technical headaches.
- You need as much power being generated now as you have demand.
- Wind power isn't predictable.
Not really. Much like oil, there's only so much uranium in the world.
You can't spell failure without FAI
But surely when coupled with the development of fuel cell technology this could satisfy a fair proportion of demand. And you can't tell me that we can't do something with tidal power in the next couple of decades, us being surrounded by seas on all sides...
Political will is what's needed and we won't get it from the current crop of oil puppets that are in charge.
PP
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No, the problem is technical, not political. There are a lot of people working on solutions to these problems but a politician cannot gamble the future well-being of a country on a technology that has not yet been invented.
And no-one is suggesting that politicians should (although Bliar's attempts to annex the UK's future energy generating capacity to US-led nookilar corporations smacks of much the same thing). The technology for wind and wave power in the form I've talked about has been available for a generation. As an example, do you by any chance remember the Cardiff Bay tidal barrage scheme in the late 1980s? Stopped from proceeding by a lack of political will. What about the Non-Fossil Fuel Obligation (NFFO), the UK scheme whereby 10% of generating capacity had to be from non-fossil renewable sources? Dropped quietly due to a lack of political will. Am I making the case more clearly now?
Political will is what's needed and we won't get it from the current crop of oil puppets that are in charge.
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I don't see Tidal wave technology as feasable. How much of the area around the country would have to be taken up with these plants? Would be many parts of the country unsuitable as too calm...
Growing plants to create fuel is stupid too as would have no room left to grow food & probably use so much energy creating the biofuel that not make sense...
I was just mulling over all this lately.
There's a resevoir about quarter of a mile behind my house and on a height. I reckon a windmill erected there would power the 50 or so houses plus nthe two second level schools in the vicinity of Hamish Towers (
There would be no visual despoilation either as it's out of sight a bit - in fact a windmill would make the place look better even
You're not, I'm afraid. The technology you talked about (wind powering a fuel cell) has been around for decades and has not been implemented because it's stupidly expensive, it's about ten times the price of feeding the wind directly onto the grid (sorry for not having any links but most of my information comes from lectures which are not online). Fuel cells have the advantege that they're portable and scalable. They're not likely to be connected to the grid in any significant ammount because pumping water up and down a hill beats them hands down on price.
The only serious attempt at wave power that I'm aware of is a scale model of a machiene being tested off the coast of Scotland. It did look quite good and may well become a functioning product in a few years time.
I'm not aware of the Cardiff Bay scheme but I can look it up when I get into college on Monday because I'll have access to the electronic journals then. I'm less than convinced that there is much power to be gotten from the tide. I did some quick maths to verify this. I'm not sure how much the tide rises by so I guessed 2 meters, if anyone has the correct figure feel free to mention it and I'll adjust the numbers. Also does the tide come in once or twice a day? I guessed once but if that's wrong let me know. I've concluded that for every square kilometer of bay you section off you get about 230kW of energy (averaged over a day). This is just under 1 tenth of the maximum power generated by a single wind turbine of the type off the Arklow coast. I have been slightly unfair to the tidal power in the comparison because I averaged it's power over a day and I have no idea how a wind turbine's power averages over a day.
Maths:
A tide of 2 meters (m) means an average increase in water hight of 1m.
Energy stored equals height times mass times a constant (9.8).
Mass of 1 square meter of water is 1,000kg.
1,000kg x 1m x 9.8 = 9,800 ... energy in 1 sq meter of water.
Volume of water equals 1km x 1km x 2m = 2,000,000 meters squared.
9,800 x 2,000,000 = 19,600,000,000 joules ... total energy
number of seconds in a day = 24 hours times 60 mins times 60 sec = 86,400
19,600,000,000 divided by 86,400 = 226800 ... energy per second (watts)
1 kilowatt (kw) = 1,000 watts
energy per second (power) = 227kw ... about enough energy to power 100 houses or about 0.005% of total energy generated in Ireland
Last edited by Student Mullet; 01/04/2006 at 12:20 PM.
I'm talking about a bay barrage where cyclical wave power drives turbines which themselves generate electricity. The Severn Bore between England and Wales is a particularly large-scale example of where this could work; as for where in Ireland I'd have to have a good think about that although could Galway Bay, the Foyle and Lagan estuaries not be considered for starters? Tidal power is a totally renewable source and one that could form a significant contribution to future generating capacity in these islands if the political will and economic incentives are there.
I'd hardly call it stupid (although in principle growing plants for biodiesel shouldn't displace food production, especially in poorer countries) as there's no reason why plants for this purpose can't be grown on a much larger scale than now and then blended in with petrodiesel in much greater proportions. After all, that's what Mister Diesel himself said all those years ago. It's carbon-neutral (the carbon captured when the source plants were grown is all that's released back into the atmosphere) and - with the right financial levers from Government - could form a large contribution to meeting Kyoto targets on CO2 emissions.
On a slight remove, this may sound daft but it's actually easy to refine biodiesel from used vegetable oil. There's a fledgeling industry here in the UK for reprocessing this (and several filling stations to stock it) but thanks to the Treasury's recent closure of a duty loophole on reprocessed biodiesel the financial advantage has gone. So much for green government.
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Looks like the Severn/Cardiff Bay tidal barrage scheme has been revived.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/st...761579,00.html
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And the Scots are making proper use of their wind...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/renewable/...763507,00.html
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From TFA, "There are 125 windfarms in the UK, including four offshore, generating just over 1% of the UK's electricity."And the Scots are making proper use of their wind...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/renewable/...763507,00.html
We already generate a higher percentage of our power from wind, IIRC.
You can't spell failure without FAI
Ethanol is a HUGE talking point over here in the States right now with regards to alternative transport fuel. Theres a whole crying match going on right now about the price of petrol, er sorry gas (what do you expect when yer big @ss SUV gets 15 mpg FFS) so the whole "alternative fuel" debate is taking off. But I've heard it mentioned a few times now, that about 30 years ago Brazil thought "fook this, we need to look after ourselves", well they are now on the verge of becoming COMPLETELY energy self sufficient - and peeps over here are thinking "oi, we need to look at how they done that!!".
Lets all copy Brazil!!!
Ethanol is good. And we could pay the sugar beet farmers to continue growing it as a source of ethanol now that there is no EU sugar industry to grow it for. Wouldn't that be a sensible approach? Instead of paying them compo, to do nothing, pay them the same money to grow sugar beet for fuel.
Oil seed rape is a source of fuel , a vegetable oil, which has successfully been used in converted petroleum burning vehicles.
Another source is second hand grease from chippers.
I don't see how growing crops can sustain energy needs. Surely there isn't enough land in the world to grow these crops.
I see where Brazil will be energy self sufficent by 2007 - they focused on ethanol from the 1970s and it seems to have worked. They also have good relations with Venezuala should oil be needed and would get the fuel at a good price too.
Anyone see that insert on Sky News yesterday about an off-shore wind farm (off the coast of Cumbria) which would power 50,000 homes (150,000 to 200,000 people I guess) but there are problems in how it would connected up and who was going to pay for it.
One problem with nuclear power is that it is massively subsidised and the massive storage costs of waste are NOT included in the costs when its proponents are discussing how "cheap" it is. We've, I think, already covered the dangers associated with it on another thread and the limited supply of uranium available (mostly, but not all, from Australia I think).
George Monbiot, a campaigner for alternative energy (frequent Guardian writer) has now started supporting "clean Gas" as a potential energy provider along with windmills, wave etc sources.
Hasn't Germany had great success with energy saving strategies?? I feel that there should be a government policy to make it attractive for builders to make houses that conserve energy - solar power for roofs etc etc etc.
I reckon an aggressive energy saving policy would hugely reduce our dependency on imported fuels. In Oregon cities, such a policy is proving to be actually financially profitable even for those involved in the transportation industry. More details if I can find the US website that dealt on this.
Hamish
The Province of Quebec in Canada is also a source of Uranium.
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