Secret All-Ireland League talks to resume

[dcfcsteve]

Some good sound-bytes, gonzo, but no substance behind your accusations. When you look at it, no-one's made a single valid point about an All-Ireland league which has been backed up by stats or evidence. Maybe we should start debating this evidence rather than throwing out sentences that sound good?

(Incidentally, I'm for an All-Ireland league. I just don't think it's the panacea it's being touted as.)

The problem is that teh absence of an all-island league means that we're low on evidence !

But look at what little evidence we do have. What has been the single-biggest injection of cash and media coverage into both leagues in recent years ? Is it the IFA or FAI ? Is it the league's sponsors ? No. It's been Setanta.

Setanta have put more money into an Irish football competition than anyone else. They've also provided both a greater volume and consistency of TV coverage on domestic football than anyone else.

And what has got Setanta to do that ? A competition with an all-island dimension.

The attendances may not be great at some insular looking clubs (at others they've been very good !), but that is no surprise. Sustainable increases in attendnaces are built slowly. What's more importahnt in the short term for both leagues is cash injections and media coverage - preferably TV. And it's only been an all-island event that has brought both of those.

[NY Hoop]

Sorry NY - but I suspect that it's you who is talkign out of their hoop here (if you'll excuse the puin).

So - UEFA have made a proclamation that meddles heavily in politics in a part of Europe with a history of violent division. Despite foot.ie being full of people with a borderline obsession for Irish club football and everythign to do with it - no-one else on here appears to have heard of such a proclamation except you, and you can't even tell us roughly when such a fundamental proclamation was made, or when or where it was reported.....?

I'm afraid it's yourself who's got this totally wrong NYH. As much as it bores me to have to bring this up seemingly every month now - there is a legal precedent under EU competition and Restraint of Trade law that states that any EU-based football club can play in any other EU-Based league if they want, so long as they are accepted within that new league. So, for example, if the Old Firm wanted to join the English League, and the League there voted to accept them, UEFA and the SFA could do feck all to stop it happening legally. Likewise, if a group of IL teams wanted to join the EL, or vice-versa, EU law would support them in doing this so long as they were accepd into that league in-accordance with its rules for accepting new members.

I can quote my evidence for this : the legal case of 'Newport County et al vs the FAW' and Lord Blackburn's ruling on it in the English High Court in 1994 - a ruling made made with reference to EU restraint of trade and competition law. Can you provide similar evidence for what you're saying ? As otherwise it's just nonesense...

Steve stop making this personal. I'm just passing on what the FAI have been told. If you think its "nonsense" then take it up with them. And there are people who have heard of this "proclamation". You can bring up legal precedents and court cases and quotes til you bore us all into oblivion.

Tip for the future: if you disagree with someone try not to dismiss it as "nonsense" or wrong.

KOH

[pineapple stu]

The problem is that the absence of an all-island league means that we're low on evidence!

Well that's not much good. Say the whole thing goes ahead and flops - do people get out of it by saying "We're low on evidence because we didn't do it before"? We've never tried changing club names to silly American names like Derry Stripers and deciding drawn games on the basis of who can strike Ollie Byrne with a ball when he's strung up one of the floodlights - let's go and do that as well because some people blindly believe it'll make our league all-powerful. Setanta are putting money into the league - and fair dues to them for doing so - but there's no way they're putting all their money in for the Setanta Cup rights; they show far more eircom League games than Setanta Cup games, and the league would still get a decent chunk of money from Setanta without the Setanta Cup.

Your legal case is irrelevant because the relevant facts are different. I've pointed this out to you several times, and your only reposte has been an opinionated rant, long on patronisation but short on facts. Please stop bringing it up now - it's getting tedious.

[Schumi]

deciding drawn games on the basis of who can strike Ollie Byrne with a ball when he's strung up one of the floodlights - let's go and do that

I agree!

[patcorr]

So if this AIL ever happens do we call it the Setanta Irish League/League of Ireland!!

[dcfcsteve]

Well that's not much good. Say the whole thing goes ahead and flops - do people get out of it by saying "We're low on evidence because we didn't do it before"? We've never tried changing club names to silly American names like Derry Stripers and deciding drawn games on the basis of who can strike Ollie Byrne with a ball when he's strung up one of the floodlights - let's go and do that as well because some people blindly believe it'll make our league all-powerful. Setanta are putting money into the league - and fair dues to them for doing so - but there's no way they're putting all their money in for the Setanta Cup rights; they show far more eircom League games than Setanta Cup games, and the league would still get a decent chunk of money from Setanta without the Setanta Cup.

I didn't state lack of evidence as a justification for having an all-island league -I just stated the fact that we're low on evidence. What evidence did we have for Summer football ? Yet we still went for it. Should we let fear of failure prevent us from doing things that rational analysis suggests may be to our benefit ? Shall we just wallow in the sh!t that's our current league - lest we, showkc horror, make a decision that doesn't work ?

Your legal case is irrelevant because the relevant facts are different. I've pointed this out to you several times, and your only reposte has been an opinionated rant, long on patronisation but short on facts. Please stop bringing it up now - it's getting tedious.

We've agreed to differ on this Pineapple. I brought it up again, as NY Hoop is making unsubstantaited claims that run contrary to something I have heard both an opposite legal view and a FIFA view on directly myself.

As for your assertion that "the relevant facts are different" - I'm sorry, but you've faield to persuade me (and, if I recall from the last thread we had on this, most other people reading it) of your arguement here. Which is why I got bored and agreed to disagree. But you couldn't resist one last go, eh....?

[Schumi]

An All-Ireland league certainly won't solve all the leagues' problems (or even many of them) but, if handled properly, could well prove the catalyst for proper measures to sort them out. The only downside (on the pitch) is the drop in European places (Steve, don't start that argument again please!!) but that will up the competition at the top of the league as Shels, Cork, Linfield and Glentoran won't be able to qualify every year and would have to fight for every league position. For the rest of the teams, a higher quality league would be well worth the loss of the odd European run and there's still a good chance of other teams winning the cup.

[Plastic man]

Sorry,throwing a few ideas about. Yeah, let's have an AI Lge., a UI soccer team........& hopefully a UI ASAP

IMHO, It would raise standards..... sadly though there's a political agenda to accomodate the current dinosaurs.
(Very well documented,but wouldn't be terrible if there was ever change,FFS!) Er,'TAL'!

What would happen if 10 years down the line and say 2/3 teams in Ireland dominate this AIL, wouldn't it be possible that they could leave and join some British or Euro Super League!

[dcfcsteve]

An All-Ireland league certainly won't solve all the leagues' problems (or even many of them) but, if handled properly, could well prove the catalyst for proper measures to sort them out. The only downside (on the pitch) is the drop in European places (Steve, don't start that argument again please!!) but that will up the competition at the top of the league as Shels, Cork, Linfield and Glentoran won't be able to qualify every year and would have to fight for every league position. For the rest of the teams, a higher quality league would be well worth the loss of the odd European run and there's still a good chance of other teams winning the cup.

Not a drop in available European places in real-terms - just increased competition for them.....

Sorry - it's a quiet Friday in the office...

[dcfcsteve]

What would happen if 10 years down the line and say 2/3 teams in Ireland dominate this AIL, wouldn't it be possible that they could leave and join some British or Euro Super League!

Yes - there is an ever-so-slight danger that that could happen.

But that's no reason not to make the change in the first place. European and world football is continually evolving.

You could even argue that the days of cheap airfares are numbered (on environmental grounds), and that the eagerness of fans to see their teams participating in a pan-European league could wane with time as taxes on air-fares pile up. The genuine fans won't want to have to watch all their away games solely on TV. This is jeat as feasible a scenario as some Irish club being welcomed into a European superleague.

[Macy]

I didn't state lack of evidence as a justification for having an all-island league -I just stated the fact that we're low on evidence. What evidence did we have for Summer football ? Yet we still went for it.

This is the perfect example of jumping into something that hasn't been proven to big success it was/is claimed to be.

I'm totally for an AIL, however both leagues need to sort out the marketing, infrastructure etc first. Then we'd be going into an AIL league strong.

If it's just seen as the solution, as summer football was, it'll be marginal, if any, increases in attendances, marginally increased success in europe, debtable increases in standard and both FA's washing their hands saying "what more can we do"?

[pineapple stu]

What evidence did we have for Summer football ? Yet we still went for it.

At least potential benefits were mooted and considered - better equip our European entrants, have a bit of the league played at a time when there was no competition from England, have games played in better weather when people were more likely to come out, etc. There's been nothing like that for an AIL.

(and, if I recall from the last thread we had on this, most other people reading it)

Funny, I don't recall anything of the sort. You might point out posts from "most people" disagreeing with me? Or is this another example of you thinking that saying something means it really happened?

Not a drop in available European places in real-terms

Really? 8 and 4 aren't real numbers? I'd better tell them that...I'd say they'll be surprised!

Fortunately, I'd imagine most people here can see through your maths and opinionated yet unsubstantiated posts, hence the lack of people rushing to back you up.

[pineapple stu]

Let's just see an AI Lge.ASAP & possibly better club performances, eg.in Europe?

Again gonzo, I have to ask you - why do those two ideas necessarily go together?

[derrymac]

I suppose the question is how do you get people to support their local team?, when they are more interested in Chelsea, Liverpool and United. Another thing is that the teams represented in the league should be more nationwide based, rather than a handful of counties represented. The GAA can do it, why not the IFA/FAI? e.g Wexford, Kerry, Cavan.......

There doesn't seem to be that problem in England where most of the football teams are located around hubs - London, The north-east, north-west and midlands

[dcfcsteve]

At least potential benefits were mooted and considered - better equip our European entrants, have a bit of the league played at a time when there was no competition from England, have games played in better weather when people were more likely to come out, etc. There's been nothing like that for an AIL.

The key benefit mooted for an AIL is the expected increase in media coverage it would generate. Setanta have put a lot of money into a competition solely because of its all-island dimension. Otherwise they could have just sponsored one or other league or association cup

Funny, I don't recall anything of the sort. You might point out posts from "most people" disagreeing with me? Or is this another example of you thinking that saying something means it really happened?

Scan back over the thread.

Really? 8 and 4 aren't real numbers? I'd better tell them that...I'd say they'll be surprised!

I'm sure you talk to numbers a lot, but I prefer to deal with the real world
Every team in the IL and EL can compete for up to 4 European slots at the moment. Under a single league north and south, they'd still be competing for only 4 slots each. 4 slots would've gone to the big qualification pool in the sky, but in real terms no club has lost any of the slots available to them to compete for (i.e. still a max of 4) . All that has happened is that the competition for the 4 available slots has increased.

Fortunately, I'd imagine most people here can see through your maths and opinionated yet unsubstantiated posts, hence the lack of people rushing to back you up.

I've made clear and direct references to a legal ruling to back-up what I've been saying here. Ive also given the name and position of a FIFA and UEFA Board memebr who's explained the whole situation to me as well. I asked you to go and find evidence that countered what I said, but you yourself said you couldn't find anything. So stop trying to personalise what is fundamentally a debate about football. Despite presenting evidence to support my arguement, and a complete absence of evidence for your viewpoint, I've agreed to differ with you. So just let it go, ffs

[pineapple stu]

With respect, I don't think many of the teams in the Irish League would increase the standard here considerably. Would teams improve massively if they were playing Dungannon instead of Waterford every week?

DCFCSteve - if you're going to write things like "you yourself said you couldn't find anything" when I quite clearly stated subsequent to the original comment and previous to your quoting it that I found and disagreed with the case you quoted, or things like "complete absence of evidence for your viewpoint" when I quite clearly stated my reasons for believing the relevant facts to be different, then, with respect, you're a fool.

The only person who has specifically disagreed with me on this thread is gonzo. And even that's not a disagreement per se - just me trying to get a bit of substance for his reasons. (Also, you disagree with me. But you think 8=4. So you don't count.) So your point there is also wrong. Though no doubt you'll retort with a strongly worded piece of rhetoric stating that I'm wrong while making reference to other posts (though not quoting them, because that would mean invalidating your argument straight off) which concludes that you're right purely on the basis that that's what you want to believe.

[dcfcsteve]

With respect, I don't think many of the teams in the Irish League would increase the standard here considerably. Would teams improve massively if they were playing Dungannon instead of Waterford every week?

DCFCSteve - if you're going to write things like "you yourself said you couldn't find anything" when I quite clearly stated subsequent to the original comment and previous to your quoting it that I found and disagreed with the case you quoted, or things like "complete absence of evidence for your viewpoint" when I quite clearly stated my reasons for believing the relevant facts to be different, then, with respect, you're a fool.

The only person who has specifically disagreed with me on this thread is gonzo. And even that's not a disagreement per se - just me trying to get a bit of substance for his reasons. (Also, you disagree with me. But you think 8=4. So you don't count.) So your point there is also wrong. Though no doubt you'll retort with a strongly worded piece of rhetoric stating that I'm wrong while making reference to other posts (though not quoting them, because that would mean invalidating your argument straight off) which concludes that you're right purely on the basis that that's what you want to believe.

Yawn. We've agreed to disagree.

As they used to say in the Budweiser ad "Let it go Louis, let it go...."

[pineapple stu]

Actually, I've repeatedly said I'm in favour of an AIL. Though you're probably skipping over that because it goes against your argument.

[Student Mullet]

Lads,
This debate is getting seriously boring. How about the two of you agree that it will be more difficult for a club to qualify for europe but that this is a good thing as it is the result of greater competition?

[Lux Interior]

I don't think the Setanta Cup has gained much extra support outside people who would normally go to IL or eL games. Maybe this because Setanta coverage around the country is patchy (NTL + 32k Sky/Chorus subscribers).

Most of the IL sides except Linfield are average ability or poor so don't attract the attention of supporters. Cork City v Drogheda Setanta CUp crowds were a bit smaller than league crowds you;d expect but this is due to boredom of playing 3 times in 4-5 weeks.

Pete, I'll accept that we are playing **** this season and there is an air of despondency surrounding the club, resulting in a **** poor 350 at Tolka and a last minute 400 at Brandywell.

Make no mistake, though, we do "attract the attention of supporters" and I suspect the REAL powers here will want our respective travelling supports - the healthiest two on the island, IMO.

Dassa - low Setanta attendances, yes - for IL clubs playing on a Monday evening isn't going to draw out supporters. Let's have these games at a weekend, to test the real level of support.

PS: agree with the earlier poster who argued that Europe shouldn't be the holy grail of Irish clubs.