I think he meant in relation to after match interviews etc but if not he does have a point as managers play a media game nowadays and very few are like Martin O Neill and Stuart Pearce and call ilt as it is. Most of them see things with rose tinted glasses on and see it from their perspective. Just look at Paul Jewel and Mark Hughes reaction to the same incident the other night. That is why we have pundits to offer objective comment, not to cheerlead as they do on Sky. If Giles is pour inga bit of cold water on Arsenals celebrations so be it but that job of a pundit is not to pander to the masses.
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Objective fine, downright ridiculous not fine. (Ridiculous in that he called one of the best managers ever a liar)Originally Posted by NeilMcD
As I said earlier it's all about opinions and that's what we all love about the game. Neither of us even support the Arsenal, but can enjoy a debate about it all the same.
The above is all opinion and based on personal experience. Unless stated otherwise it is not a dig at anybody, well probably none of you lot.
1st Wenger is a liar in the same way that I am a liar. There is no way that Wenger has gone throughout his whole life without telling a lie. So in that case Giles is right. Also he was right in that he said Wenger was a liar when he suggested that Arsenals performance last night was the game plan. I have pointed out earlier how this could not be the case.
2nd I would have to take you up on saying Wenger is one of the greatest managers ever What exactly do you mean by that. How good do you have to be to be one of the greatest managers ever. In the top 10 ever, or to 20 of club managers or what. I can name 10 better than him.
Ferguson
Capello (despited last nights match)
Lippi
Clough
Paisley
Stein
Busby
Shankly
Michels
Sachi.
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Oh Sweet Jesus.....
Sorry but what are you last 2 posters exactly adding to this debate then. Clifford was suggesting that to call Wenger a liar was ridiculous. Therefore I showed that both technically and in context he was right that Wenger is a liar. But if you only want to qoute one part of my post that is fair enough but it generally equates to gutter journalism on your part.
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Performance and result - a thin line. Arsenal restricted Juve to a few half chances. Is that not a good performance ? Sure they gave the ball away on occasions but it was an enjoyable enough game to watch. Not a masterclass of football but Arsenal attacked when they could so it was a good performance and result. A poor performance would have been them being carved open time and time again and lucky to survive.
Sometimes the RTE Panel is opinionated for the sake of being opinionated.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
we were just pointing out the stupidity of that statement for anyone who didnt have time to read whole thread and might have missed that little gem.
Well thats your opinion that its a stupid statement and as a stand alone statement it possibly could be argued that it is. But the whole point here is context as within context it is far from stupid. So Klein are you saying that people rely on you to give them a summary of a thread. Cause if they do they they must have severe learning difficulties.
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have you ever seen the Monthy Python argument routine????
just a thought....
Better in what way, won more trophies? Won a European Cup? Just wondering Neill what you use to judge the greatness of a manager. It appears from that list at least that you have to have won a European Cup to be considered great.
I personally find it difficult to say one manager is better than another becuase there is so many outside things affecting it such as players, situations, clubs - i'd struggle to pick the best manager from that list.
Until everyone is playing with the exact same resources how can anyone be sure. You appear to me to be looking at the winners list to describe greatness - that's just not how I would judge the greatness of a manager.
Some of the Managers I have the most respect for and truely believe are some of the greatest managers ever haven't won anything or little of great significance - Dario Gradi & Andy Roxburgh being two who I believe are as tactically astute & knowledgeable about the game as anyone in that list. I would also consider the likes of Herbert Chapman & Bill Nicolson as influential as any of the UK based Managers on that list for how they revolutionised the game during their time.
For me being a great manager encompasses more than just winning trophies - it's also about development of players, management of off field activities, transforming a club, being an innovater etc...
I consider all of the above you mentioned great managers but to say they are all better than Wenger without certainty is questionable unless of course we have a hard & fast rule that we must base greatness on European Cup success.
Foot.ie - NFL Fantasy Football Champion, 2006!
I suppose football is about opinions but I was trying to make it as objective as possible and thats why I went for success at the top level in club Football. You are right there are many forms of success and thats why David Moyes has won manager of the year 2 out of the last 3 years. I would not have Wenger down as one of the greatest managers ever however if we wins the European Cup this year he certainly would be up there.
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