Dublin's big four have grounds for sharing

**sonofstan** · 14/03/2006, 3:47 PM

Pats don't have to - think their debts are manageable thanks to a few years of austerity; on the other hand they own most of the freehold on richmond so the board and various investors stand to make a fair bit. Shels are - despite denials- in real trouble, and the only way to realise some cash is to sell what's left of their lease on Tolka. initial idea was to move to a green field site out in the sticks, but after the genesis report into the future of the game down here, the FAI came up with idea of them moving into Dalymount - and now both Shels and the Fai are treating as a fait accompli

**Speranza** · 14/03/2006, 3:53 PM

They have to leave because that is what the big wigs want. Shels move has been planned for ages, they seem to have no support base in Drumcondra and had a move to the sticks on the cards, this now seems to have been scrapped.

Pats don't have to move. I would be disgusted if Pats were coerced into leaving Inchicore as no club should be taken away from its community.

Although the motives aren't public posters here speculate that the FAI want two stadiums in Dublin. These two stadia can be developed to hold small internationals and U-21 matches e.t.c

edit: sorry sonofstan didn't see your post

**Bald Student** · 14/03/2006, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Speranza

Although the motives aren't public posters here speculate that the FAI want two stadiums in Dublin. These two stadia can be developed to hold small internationals and U-21 matches e.t.c

I don't really buy that argument myself. Very few underage internationals would sell out Tolka or Dalymount as they presently stand. A full international would have to be very small to fit into the proposed 10,000 seater stadia.

I think this whole thing is an example of short term thinking. The money released from the sales will allow the clubs to spend beyond their incomes for a good length of time and in a decade or so when the money runs out it'll be back to square one only with two less stadia in the city.

**wws** · 14/03/2006, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by Speranza

Although the motives aren't public posters here speculate that the FAI want two stadiums in Dublin. These two stadia can be developed to hold small internationals and U-21 matches e.t.c

The motives are public - its official Govt/FAI policy. The war on this though is only just beginning - expect murder at pats over the next few matches as the fans make their voice heard - we're being filleted by speculators - same ole League of Ireland nonsense only this time with the FAI/Govt twist thrown in for good measure.

I predict a riot! literally? time will tell.....

**CharlesThompson** · 14/03/2006, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bald Student

I don't really buy that argument myself. Very few underage internationals would sell out Tolka or Dalymount as they presently stand. A full international would have to be very small to fit into the proposed 10,000 seater stadia.

I think this whole thing is an example of short term thinking. The money released from the sales will allow the clubs to spend beyond their incomes for a good length of time and in a decade or so when the money runs out it'll be back to square one only with two less stadia in the city.

What school do you go to? By my maths the money released from a sale is part of their income, therefore allowing a club to spend more than any other in order to assert dominance - I agree with the overall point you're making though.

On the issue at hand, I will be surprised if the Bohs membership vote for what looks like is currently on the table. It's just not a good deal.

I'd like to see though what the thoughts of the Shels support is regarding this article and some of the numbers in it. If Shels lost circa �1m last year with CL and Setanta Cup football, how are they supposed to survive unless Ollie wins the Euro Millions draw? Are you even beginning to get worried?

**pineapple stu** · 14/03/2006, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesThompson

What school do you go to? By my maths the money released from a sale is part of their income, therefore allowing a club to spend more than any other in order to assert dominance - I agree with the overall point you're making though.
If Shels lost circa �1m last year with CL and Setanta Cup football, how are they supposed to survive unless Ollie wins the Euro Millions draw? Are you even beginning to get worried?

I think you answered yourself there. Shels have been as dominant as any club in the league in the last while - probably ever if you take into account European money, etc., which wasn't around in Rovers' day - and they're losing money hand over fist according to the article. There's also a school of thought that says they've already sold the ground and used the money to finance their recent success, which would mean we're actually two or three years down the road Bald Student is describing.

**OneRedArmy** · 14/03/2006, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by wws

The motives are public - its official Govt/FAI policy. The war on this though is only just beginning - expect murder at pats over the next few matches as the fans make their voice heard - we're being filleted by speculators - same ole League of Ireland nonsense only this time with the FAI/Govt twist thrown in for good measure.

I predict a riot! literally? time will tell.....

Took the words out of my mouth WWS. The Pats example, particularly re the recent consolidation of land ownership into a few hands, smacks of pure Kilcoynism.

Unsurprising given current property values, but it should provoke more clubs into ensuring their grounds are transferred to supporters trust-type structures which contain sufficient covenants and clauses to ensure the speculators don't get their hands on the land.

**Bald Student** · 14/03/2006, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesThompson

What school do you go to? By my maths the money released from a sale is part of their income, therefore allowing a club to spend more than any other in order to assert dominance

I'm an engineering student in UCD. There's a difference between capital and current income though. My junior cert business studies book told me that spending capital income on current expenditure is not sustainable. This is an example of that.

**hoopy** · 14/03/2006, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bald Student

. Very few underage internationals would sell out Tolka or Dalymount as they presently stand.

The thing is John O'Donoghue has already stated that once Tallaght is up and running he wants the Junior internationals played there

**chippie0001** · 14/03/2006, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Took the words out of my mouth WWS. The Pats example, particularly re the recent consolidation of land ownership into a few hands, smacks of pure Kilcoynism.

Unsurprising given current property values, but it should provoke more clubs into ensuring their grounds are transferred to supporters trust-type structures which contain sufficient covenants and clauses to ensure the speculators don't get their hands on the land.

But how many clubs actually own their own land? Not many by my workings which mean most clubs are stuck with choices made by outside parties.

**CollegeTillIDie** · 14/03/2006, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by BohDiddley

Precisely. The future of one Dublin's oldest football clubs is in the hands of a Kerryman, and it shows. Election can't come soon enough.
Talk of Bohs being excluded arbitrarily from the EL, or whatever follows it, is poppycock.
Any league that would contemplate doing that isn't worth being part of.

To be fair it's a Kerryman who has prevented bogball being played in the stadium in Tallaght !

**pete** · 15/03/2006, 11:14 AM

The sums of money invloved are huge by eL standards. Where are Pats getting 26m from? Surely nobody would pay that for their land & if its from the FAI then they just giving a massive subsidy.

IMO the dublin clubs should should show the FAI/government they can live within their means & stop spending their way to success & massive debts.

Shels in particular losing 50% of their turnover is almost criminal. The sooner there is a cap on spending the better!

**ConfusedBlue** · 15/03/2006, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by pete

The sums of money invloved are huge by eL standards. Where are Pats getting 26m from? Surely nobody would pay that for their land & if its from the FAI then they just giving a massive subsidy.

IMO the dublin clubs should should show the FAI/government they can live within their means & stop spending their way to success & massive debts.

Shels in particular losing 50% of their turnover is almost criminal. The sooner there is a cap on spending the better!

Isn't that what the UEFA licencing is for,to put a stop to clubs living beyond their means?If you don't have your finances in order,you don't get a licence!!

**monkey magic** · 15/03/2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by pete

Shels in particular losing 50% of their turnover is almost criminal. The sooner there is a cap on spending the better!

if that article is correct then bohs arent much better, 720,000 if frightening for a club who finished mid-table...

someone else mentioned short term thinking.. if anything this is an attempt at long term thinking in terms of developing better infrastructure and giving the clubs a base from which to build, dosent mean its a good idea though, and having property developers sniffing around is a serious red light, those are a class of individuals i inherently dont trust and should not be let near the pats boardroom, with whats at stake here.

**pete** · 15/03/2006, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by monkey magic

if that article is correct then bohs arent much better, 720,000 if frightening for a club who finished mid-table...

I thought someone put up the Bohs accounts a few weeks ago that showed 400k & 300k loses in the last 2 years? Where did they get 720k from?

**monkey magic** · 15/03/2006, 12:05 PM

maybe thats a figure for their outstanding debt? i would have thought it was more though..

**pineapple stu** · 15/03/2006, 12:48 PM

Those losses are all too commonplace in the league though. Pat's made a E400k loss last year (or the year before; can't remember which), Bray E250k and Drogs E100k or so (you can download their accounts through CRO.ie). Big figures. One area of licencing which does seem to have been adhered to though is that clubs must be solvent. So the likes of Pat's and Bray have recently issued E400k or so of share capital just to become solvent. Of course, if they make a loss this year, they'll be insolvent and have to issue share capital again, so there's now a big incentive on clubs to get their houses in order. That's probably why Pat's are in such a slump lately - trying to get themselves in order. I've only seen one club who made a profit last year - Kildare County, who finished third bottom of Division One after three seasons just outside the play-offs.

Bohs and Shels, I think, own their own grounds? In that case, they'd have a much stronger asset base, could probably borrow against the grounds and would basically have to make losses equal to the value of their ground before UEFA Licencing becomes an issue for them.

Curiously, Shels (Accolade Ltd) don't file accounts, taking an exemption under the grounds that the purpose of the company is not to make gains for its members (!). All their most recent submission shows is that they made a loss in 2004 as well, but are solvent.

On the Bohs issue, how does the members' club bit work? Or basically, how would the vote to accept/refuse the groundsharing work? Does each member have one vote or are there weightings at all (like in a limited company, where you normally have one vote per share)? How many members are there, and are they all fans?

**Schumi** · 15/03/2006, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Bohs and Shels, I think, own their own grounds?

Shels have (or had?) a 30?-year lease on Tolka. They never owned it.

Does each member have one vote or are there weightings at all (like in a limited company, where you normally have one vote per share)?

One-member, one-vote I'd assume.

**sonofstan** · 15/03/2006, 1:03 PM

one member, one vote - there are somewhere in the region of 500 of us, and, AFAIK although we are the sole shareholders in the club, we can't make a profit from its sale or the sale of any of its assets, so there is no incentive to sell to line our pockets. As for all the members being fans - there's no advantage to it (see above) and, if you wanted to swing a vote you'd have to join up in sizeable numbers at 330e a pop, which might look suspicious, (plus applications have to be seconded and approved by the board)especially now, so no, I don't think Oliver's Army could undermine us from within.

**Dassa** · 15/03/2006, 1:46 PM

The whole thing seems to be quite a mess for clubs especially Shelbourne. No future at their Ground and losses of that nature cant be sustained. Heres hoping they get something sorted, for the future of the club and its fans.