Revenue Commissioners Investigate League

[chippie0001]

Not that this is a major shock to anyone but the front page of the Sunday business post and a half a page article on page 17 indicates that the revenue are talking to all Eircome league clubs re tax affairs. The entire process was triggered by Rovers and what they owed.

Main point from the article state that up to half the clubs in the league owe money, some tens of thousands, one club up to a million. Ollie wants a tax amnesty for all the clubs so they can start over, blaming lack of investment and clubs trying to make the league professional. Again mentions the April 3rd date and Shels being wound up. A revenue quote that they took action against Shels after they missed a payment.

Quotes genisis on the league and how the league is bankrupt, players don't get pay slips etc. Says the process will be ongoing until the revenue gets its money that it is owed. Also on a side note says the FAI made €2,9m profit last year

[Forever Dreamin]

Ollie Byrne has called for the Revenue to give all Eioocm league clubs an amnesty. This is a bit of a cheek coming after he was quite happy to see Rovers relegated last year due to their financial situation and the problems with the revenue.
While I dont want to see clubs die fair play suggests that any clubs that are insolvent should be penalised like Rovers with a points deduction. Even if it means all clubs deducted points it's the principal of it.
Future grants should be clearly dependent on tax affairs being in order for clubs.

[Gareth]

Ollie Byrne has called for the Revenue to give all Eioocm league clubs an amnesty. This is a bit of a cheek coming after he was quite happy to see Rovers relegated last year due to their financial situation and the problems with the revenue.
While I dont want to see clubs die fair play suggests that any clubs that are insolvent should be penalised like Rovers with a points deduction. Even if it means all clubs deducted points it's the principal of it.
Future grants should be clearly dependent on tax affairs being in order for clubs.

I think the reason he mentions a tax amnesty is because Rovers tax bill was eradicated? Anyways if everyone got their tax bill wiped, I have no problem with all the clubs getting an 8 point reduction....only fair

[chippie0001]

For me if the government or the FAI are serious about pro football then something like Ollie suggests should be looked at. In my view any tax paid by a club over the last 5 years should be refunded, and all outstanding debts for every club written off. The clubs who have been honest and paying their taxes get their cash back while the ones who haven't get their clean slate but don't profit. Maybe we should all pay "expenses" like the GAA.

[Gareth]

Chippie, sounds like a plan.

[pete]

Maybe we should all pay "expenses" like the GAA.

If the eL is being targeted surely the GAA will be next? Surely any organisation that pays such huge "expenses" would be suspicious?

I think part of the eL problem is that the PFAI want wages to be net of taxes where the club is responsibile to pay the tax. As most clubs have only started to have professional admin & accounts this probably lead to gaps...

I presume if a club has changed hands & not run by different limited company liabilities cannot extend to the previous operating company?

[Ger Fay]

The GAA would not have the same effect as it does not pay anyone with the excetpion to the full time staff at the HQ. All players are voluntary so there is no tax issues there.

Also the gaa does not sell anything. Not sure if it was able to recoup the VAT on its buidling costs but i think they would be able to as I think the GAA has some sort of a tax exemption

[pete]

The vast majority of eL players are part-time. Does this mean the eL clubs should just pay them IN expenses like the GAA?

Most inter-county managers are all but professional fulltime employees. Why else would someone travel the length of the country for training sessions with players if not getting expenses by the mile.

[chippie0001]

The GAA would not have the same effect as it does not pay anyone with the excetpion to the full time staff at the HQ. All players are voluntary so there is no tax issues there.

Also the gaa does not sell anything. Not sure if it was able to recoup the VAT on its buidling costs but i think they would be able to as I think the GAA has some sort of a tax exemption

Yeah right every GAA player and manager gets expenses. How are these expenses decided on? On what basis are they tax free. When O'Dwyer was manager of Kildare he was rumoured to be getting €50k a year in "expenses" so don't tell me the players etc get nothing.

[A face]

The vast majority of eL players are part-time. Does this mean the eL clubs should just pay them IN expenses like the GAA?

Most inter-county managers are all but professional fulltime employees. Why else would someone travel the length of the country for training sessions with players if not getting expenses by the mile.

You'd wonder why clubs haven't been doing anything like that, even in part, travel expenses etc. playing away every second week with mileage clearly building up, why wouldn't eL clubs start payng less wages and more expenses. Its not like its illegal to do it, most business do this.

[Passive]

For me if the government or the FAI are serious about pro football then something like Ollie suggests should be looked at. In my view any tax paid by a club over the last 5 years should be refunded, and all outstanding debts for every club written off. The clubs who have been honest and paying their taxes get their cash back while the ones who haven't get their clean slate but don't profit. Maybe we should all pay "expenses" like the GAA.

Here's a mad plan - if football clubs in Ireland are to be taken seriously, why don't they run themselves as legitimate businesses and fulfill their legal responsibility to pay tax on earnings?

It's so crazy it might just work.

[pineapple stu]

Don't be stupid Passive. Sure for that to work, we'd have to all live within our maens, plan things properly, avoid stupid crazy spending sprees in the vague hope of some unrealistic pipe-dream and other such idiocies.

[chippie0001]

Here's a mad plan - if football clubs in Ireland are to be taken seriously, why don't they run themselves as legitimate businesses and fulfill their legal responsibility to pay tax on earnings?

It's so crazy it might just work.

It would work but then we would have an amatuer league. We all know that no club can afford pro football on its own. So if the government and the FAI are serious about wanting a pro league, facilities and teams doing well in europe they have to do something. As a fan of the league going back amatuer would not bother me, it was that way when it started but I think we all know it would die even quicker than it is.

[pineapple stu]

Why would the Government advocate a league where they got absolutely no tax and set a precedent for other sporting leagues to do the same?

[chippie0001]

Why would the Government advocate a league where they got absolutely no tax and set a precedent for other sporting leagues to do the same?

Who said they get no tax? I never talked about the future. I said that the government back genisus according to the FAI and are willing to stump up a large amount of cash to see Dalier redeveloped and Bohs and Shels in it. They are also willing to pay for Tallaght for Rovers and maybe Pats. However these facilities alone won't develop the league and someone will have to help the clubs, for example the provinces in rugby need the IRFU help to maintain being professional. In short someone has to decide on the future of the league and seemingly the FAI with government help are backing the genisus report which advocates pro football. As we all agree the clubs alone cannot fund that so someone has to help.

[pineapple stu]

Ah, you mean the write-off-current-tax and start over idea? Different, I suppose. Though I still don't really see them going for it. All it'd do it teach the clubs that they can screw up as much as they want and they'll always get bailed out.

[Roverstillidie]

I think the reason he mentions a tax amnesty is because Rovers tax bill was eradicated? Anyways if everyone got their tax bill wiped, I have no problem with all the clubs getting an 8 point reduction....only fair

eradicated? there seems to be the impression out there that the revenue only got 4% of what was owed. not true, they got much, much more. and what we did was legal and done in conjunction with the revenue.

are you suggesting olly is right to believe he shouldnt pay tax because he has inaccurate information about how much we paid?

[Passive]

It would work but then we would have an amatuer league. We all know that no club can afford pro football on its own. So if the government and the FAI are serious about wanting a pro league, facilities and teams doing well in europe they have to do something. As a fan of the league going back amatuer would not bother me, it was that way when it started but I think we all know it would die even quicker than it is.

Chippie, I know myself and yourself sing from the same hymn sheet regarding clubs getting their acts together so I'm not having a go at you, but any sort of amnesty would just mean we were sweeping this under the carpet for another ten years before clubs start going bust again.

Clubs with good gates and good backing from the business community can still afford to pay players quite good money without having to break the law (because, let's face it, that's what clubs are doing). If we did an amnesty now, all we would be doing would be giving clubs a green light to continue as they were. We wouldn't be changing anything.

Government funding for infrastructure, solid links with the business community and a shift in the sporting culture of the Irish public will all help get us to where we want to be, but I don't think the State turning a blind eye to a decade of criminal activity would be the answer.

[dcfcsteve]

I think the reason he mentions a tax amnesty is because Rovers tax bill was eradicated? Anyways if everyone got their tax bill wiped, I have no problem with all the clubs getting an 8 point reduction....only fair

No - the reason Ollie mentions a tax amnesty is, surprise surprise, because his own club are in serious sh!ite with the tax man. Good old Ollie - never one to let shamelessness stand in the way of his own self-interest.

And Rovers didn't have their bill eradicated - they still had to pay some of it.

Ollie Byrne has a feckin' cheek to be looking for a tax amnesty now. Other clubs have gone through years of under-performance and pain to get their finances in order and onto a strong footing. Meanwhile, Ollie was using the tax-man's money to fund a couple of league titles.

[dcfcsteve]

It would work but then we would have an amatuer league. We all know that no club can afford pro football on its own. So if the government and the FAI are serious about wanting a pro league, facilities and teams doing well in europe they have to do something. As a fan of the league going back amatuer would not bother me, it was that way when it started but I think we all know it would die even quicker than it is.

There's seems to be an implicit assumtpion/assertion amonst EL fans that a professional football league in Ireland is a necessity, or even a right !

The bottom line is that there is NOT enough money in Irish football at the moment to fund more than maybe one or two fully professional clubs. For as long as we ignore this reality, our clubs and our league will constantly bumble from one financial crisis to another

I'd love our league to be professional, but it just isn't sustainable under current conditions. I suspect the FAI's grand plan re clubs etc (possibly involing an all-island dimension) is their perceived last throw of the dice - establish what they believe to be the strongest structure for a domestic league in Ireland, put some money into it as a once-off, and then see if it sinks or swims from there.