Irish rugby

[gspain]

Cricket and Hockey use a Union flag and hockey at least have adopted Ireland's Call.

The actual situation for rugby at present is

1) No flag and Ireland's call for away games

2) Tricolour and AnabhF for Lansdowne

3) Union Jack and GSTQ for Ravenhill.

The last International at Ravenhill was Scotland 1954 and it involved a couple of players remaining in the dressingroom until after the anthems were played.

With the new stadium in the Maze it is likely that some Internationals will go back to NI. indeed I think the reason Thomnd Park and not Ravenhill has hosted a couple of the Mickey Mouse games is because of the flags and anthems issue. There are no flags or anthems at A or U21 games.

I actually like Ireland's Call.

[Dassa]

fair enough lads was looking your opinions and got them. Some would be happy for a neutral flag, others for the present system to continue and others would be happy to see NI and ROI flag flown side by side during matches. This last one I personally feel would be great to see or a neutral shamrock flag. This wasnt about trying to bring politics into sport, Many people were i live support Ireland during matches but many also cant bring themselves to on the basis of the anthem and flag of 1 country played and displayed for 2 different countries. Its hard to tell someone its their country playing with the current system that exists. cheers lads.

remember ireland having friendly a few years ago were it was quite small. I was absolutely shocked to see it at thomond ahead of Ravenhill. Guessed it was the IRFU's way of avoiding the problem which is there and will be in years to come when our stadium is built. I for one dont wont GSTQ or the ROI anthem played both are inappropriate for the team playing.

Are you sure about the hockey and cricket. Was at a game while back in cricket at stormont no GSTQ or UJ as far as I can remember, but may have been me being late as per usual.

[Schumi]

A four province flag (like this) would be an accpetable 'neutral' flag for me. I really hate Ireland's Call though. It's an awful, artificial song.

[Over the post]

I think the four province flag is probably the best solution.

I don't like Ireland's Call and think that playing it and the national anthem is just ridiculous. One or the other, lads. If Ireland's Call is supposed to represent everyone, why bother with a national anthem.

I remember a good article by Kevin Myers a few years ago arguing that "There is an Isle" should be used instead of Ireland's Call. He claimed it would bring a tear even to Ian Paisley's eye!

[Soko]

remember ireland having friendly a few years ago were it was quite small. I was absolutely shocked to see it at thomond ahead of Ravenhill.

Why? Thomond Park has just as much right to host an international as Ravenhill. If that shocked you I'm suprised you're still with us.

[Dassa]

I was talking about the idea that you have an international in one country. when the opportunity arises to have it in the other country NI it should have been taken. It would have been a good gesture to people that the IRFU arent obsessed with keeping Ireland matches in only the one country.

[Soko]

I was talking about the idea that you have an international in one country. when the opportunity arises to have it in the other country NI it should have been taken. It would have been a good gesture to people that the IRFU arent obsessed with keeping Ireland matches in only the one country.

I thought this was one 'rugby' country and we have 4 provinces. The fact that Ravenhill is in Northern Ireland is not too relevant imo. Ulster, Munster, Leinster, Connacht is how I see it and Munster got the game.


You're right on avoiding any hassle though. Ravenhill has more potential to get a little messy, Thomond is a banker to be an easy process so will win every time unless you get a big stadium. I'd expect to see quite a few smaller internationals in Limerick when the stadium plans are finished.

[Dassa]

I thought this was one 'rugby' country and we have 4 provinces. The fact that Ravenhill is in Northern Ireland is not too relevant imo. Ulster, Munster, Leinster, Connacht is how I see it and Munster got the game.


You're right on avoiding any hassle though. Ravenhill has more potential to get a little messy, Thomond is a banker to be an easy process so will win every time unless you get a big stadium. I'd expect to see quite a few smaller internationals in Limerick when the stadium plans are finished.

well thats your opinion and your entitled to it.

[Bald Student]

The tricolour is the most identifiable symbol of Ireland abroad. Any other symbol could be confusing.

I think a shamrock on a white background would be just as identifiable, if not more so.

A neutral anthem would be best but Irelands Call really is a horrible song. Part of the problem aswell is that there is no anthem of Northern Ireland. If we played England in Ravenhill would we play GSTQ twice?

I think the four provences flag is very cluttered. I'd prefer to see four seperate provincial flags or maybe just the flag of the hosting province than that.

I noticed aswell that the EU flag was flying over the north terrace against Wales.

[Dassa]

A neutral anthem would be best but Irelands Call really is a horrible song. Part of the problem aswell is that there is no anthem of Northern Ireland. If we played England in Ravenhill would we play GSTQ twice?

at the minute probably and for me this isnt acceptable, NI doesnt have a suitable anthem at present but this doesn't merit the reasoning for the soldier song. A neutral is the only way forward.

[Dodge]

Don't NI use Danny Boy at the Commenwealth Games?

[Aberdonian Stu]

I'm not certain if they still do but they definitely did in 1990! Anyone old enough to remember that rendition of Danny boy (because they forgot the tape) when Wayne McCullough won gold can testify to that.

[geysir]

I haven't read any opinions of the players about the issue of the flag or the anthems. I saw when the teams were lined up, Humphries keeps his mouth glued shut for A na bF and belts out Ireland´s call.
The players seem okay with Irelands Call, apart from personal taste what's so contentious about it? It could be sung in kindergarten.

think the four provences flag is very cluttered.

It is indeed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Ireland
I do see that the flag of Ulster is for the 9 county province

[Soko]

The players are told to sing Irelands Call with gusto, I doubt most of them care too much for it either.

[crc]

I actually like Ireland's Call, but I can see that the jury is out on the issue. It may be an artificial song, but aren't all songs artificial in that case? At least its neutral, which is its most important characteristic.

Amhran na bhFiann is played because the games are played in Dublin, at away games only IC is played. Its not fair that Unionists never get to hear their anthem, but I think that GSTQ is a non-runner simply because a large section of the population in the North don't approve of it, not just those south of the border. Agreed symbols are difficult to get in NI, so I think Ireland's Call has achieved alot in that respect.

On the flags issue. As has been mentionned, the tricolour actually has quite profound meaning and was originally intended a symbol to unite both (and all) types of Irishmen. It had the noble aim of recognising that the Orange tradition is legitimate and should live in harmony in our little island. It is extremely unfortunate that it has been hijacked and tainted by militant republicans, and that Unionists don't accept it. However the simple fact is that Unionists don't accept it and therefore we need an alternative. IMO we should be able to agree some sort of flag that represents both parts of Ireland together and which is associated with neither state. It should symbolise that the Irish people want to be friends with one another. The St.Patrick's saltire is one option, or the four provinces flag, but the white flag with the shamrocks is probably the easiest (and also one very recognisable to foreigners).

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

last time i checked the irish rugby team did use a flag representing both "traditions" on the island. it's called the tri-colour. green for nationalism, white for peace and orange for unionism. this flag already represents ireland as a whole it's just the fact that 6 out of the 32 counties aren't part of it in political terms (yet).

Fair play to $Leon$. That's the best post I've read on foot.ie in quite a while.

The tricolour was designed to represent the whole of this island. Why should the majority be denied an important part of their cultural identity because Unionists have difficulty accepting it. I'm not sectarian but I might as well be blunt. I'm happier when there are no Ulster players on the team. In fact, I always like to see Ulster do poorly in the Heineken Cup. I much prefer a team comprised of Leinster and Munster players and I know a lot of people who feel the same. I'd much prefer to see young Kearney of Leinster in the Irish team ahead of Trimble. In recent years, rugby has been taken up more and more by nationalists and I hope this is a trend that continues.

[crc]

Fair play to $Leon$. That's the best post I've read on foot.ie in quite a while.
The tricolour was designed to represent the whole of this island. Why should the majority be denied an important part of their cultural identity because Unionists have difficulty accepting it. I'm not sectarian but I might as well be blunt. I'm happier when there are no Ulster players on the team. In fact, I always like to see Ulster do poorly in the Heineken Cup. I much prefer a team comprised of Leinster and Munster players and I know a lot of people who feel the same. ...
In recent years, rugby has been taken up more and more by nationalists and I hope this is a trend that continues.

And that, my friend, is one of the worst posts I've read on foot.ie in quite a while!

It's not about pure numbers, either in NI or Ireland as a whole, its about parity of esteem between both (and all) traditions. You claim to be a nationalist, yet you seem to be happiest excluding people from the north-east of your nation in its affairs (sporting or otherwise).
You claim not to be sectarian, yet you are exactly that by taking an extremely mono-ethnic view of who should be included - that's as bad (and a lot more short-sighted) than the Unionsist who excluded Catholics from an equal part in the Northern Ireland between 1921 and 1972.
We should be reaching out to Unionists in order to make them feel at ease with us. We shouldn't patronise them or tell them that their traditions were invalid (would / do you accept it if they do the same to you?).

We should articulate a vision that lets them know that the (united) Ireland of the future will treasure their culture and traditions (including the right to be British and have political ties with England, Scotland and Wales), and that they will have a valuable and valued part to play in the Ireland that we all construct.

And before you call me a Unionist appologist, or a west-Brit, I can assure you that I am 100% an Irish Nationalist. Its just that I can see that we will never have a united Ireland (or even an Ireland simply at peace with itself) if we don't recognise the validity af all major traditions on this island. Its not about cultural assimilation, but respect. If there ever is a united Ireland, it will look more like the GFA North than the present day ROI. You wouldn't accept it if your traditions were rejected (as was the case for northern Catholics), so why would you expect it of Unionists?

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

You wouldn't accept it if your traditions were rejected (as was the case for northern Catholics), so why would you expect it of Unionists?

I appreciate your opinions and your open-mindedness on this issue but that's just the way I feel. It just feels natural for me that I would prefer to see Leinster and Munster players on the team. I feel a closer connection to those players. I don't feel that way when I see Ulster players who have obviously don't sing my national anthem.
Despite what you think I'm not sectarian. Indeed, I'd be someone who supports Unionists' rights to their own culture and beliefs. However, I don't want those cultures to compromise my own as would happen if we got rid of the tricolour and national anthem. I think we've compromised enough by playing Ireland's Call.

[Dillo]

[QUOTE=TheJamaicanP.M.]Fair play to $Leon$. That's the best post I've read on foot.ie in quite a while.


Well done $Leon$.

[crc]

It just feels natural for me that I would prefer to see Leinster and Munster players on the team. I feel a closer connection to those players. I don't feel that way when I see Ulster players who have obviously don't sing my national anthem.
Despite what you think I'm not sectarian. ...
However, I don't want those cultures to compromise my own as would happen if we got rid of the tricolour and national anthem.

Well, you seem reasonable enough about the issue. However, for me I'd like the symbols to represent all of Ireland. The tricolour ostensibly does that (by uniting Orange and Green), but in actual fact it doesn't really represent the Orange because they themselves say that it doesn't. Its an unfortunate fact of history, but I don't think we can delude ourselves into thinking that it does represent everyone in Ireland.

In the nineteenth century, the tricolour had a great symbolism. It was created with the very aim of trying to include both major traditions (why else would it have had orange in it?). But because it became associated with republicanism and the violence that occurred in 1916-23, and 1969-98, it doesn't hold any meaning for Unionists. It could have been blue, white and red, had a crown and an orange sash on it for all they care - as soon as it became associated with forces that were openly hostile and violent to them, it lost most of the original meaning it had. After all, the Union Jack has a whole portion devoted to Ireland (the St. Patrick's saltire), but that doesn't convince me that the Brits treasure the Irish because of it.

I like the tricolour and the anthem, but I would be more proud of symbols that attracted the allegiance of everybody. There is almost nothing I can think of that would make me happier than a united Ireland, but I know there isn't even the remotest chance of it happening if the orange side don't also feel comfortable within it. I like the fact that they're (mostly) comfortable with the Irish rugby team, in the same way that I'm happy to support the Lions. Its a quid-pro quo; its all about parity of esteem.

[Incidentally, I'd love to see an all-Ireland team compete in the Commonwealth games.]