Ryanair undercover

[pete]

Ryanair usually have much longer 25minutes turn around as their published flights times are almost always ahead of official landing times therefore gives more time top turnaround.

Dublin Airport was found by the EU to have inadequate security so now they added idiotic "shoe search" to security procedures. I would suggest Ryanair security measures in line with the airports they operate from. Passport checks are not required for a lot of inter-EU flights anyway.

[Bald Student]

In fairness, that's a 13½ hour day.

That's normal for shift work. 4 12-hour days a week.

If anyone tries to claim that a 25 minute turnaround is in the best safety interests of either the plane or its cargo, I might as well be talking to the wall.

I don't see how an extra ten minutes of sitting on the tarmac improves safety.

[pete]

I don't see how an extra ten minutes of sitting on the tarmac improves safety.

I agree. Its not as if an engineer does a quick service

BTW was ex-Arelingus employee on the radio this morning & she backed that up by saying AL took longer because they had strong union & were having their lunch.

[hamish]

I'm searching for information on the causes of air crashes but I came across this just now of incidents pertaining to Ireland.

http://www.aaiu.ie/aviation/aaiu/rep...g=ENG&loc=1280

This is interesting (print is very small though)
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...+carriers.html

Note this paragraph

In the last year Ryanair aircraft faced two anomalous approaches that came close to ending in tears. In one of them the Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit ventured that the pilot flying’s out-of-character conduct was the result of stresses outside – but related to – the workplace: in the other, an internal investigation by Ryanair concluded that a bereavement had affected the captain’s capacity. Meanwhile a Ryanair pilot’s demotion after refusing to fly extra sectors at the end of his rostered duty day is being examined in the courts. Safety experts always talk of the iceberg model for incidents and accidents: the accidents are the tip, the incidents are the bulk of the iceberg and the indicators that it is time to look for trends.

This is VERY INTERESTING

http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/news/halfmilhits.htm

"Ryanair are more concerned about sales then passenger saftey. I can't count on ten fingers how many emergency landings i have had due to trying to be early or on time and not working on the technical problem. I think its only a matter of time before some big accident occurs with the company due to there no frills"
(spelling in quote not the best but I copied and pasted it so not my fault)

Make your own minds up.

[Dr.Nightdub]

OK, cards on table time here: I'm naturally inclined to be anti-Ryanair - mainly cos of their anti-union track record (anyone remember the baggage-handlers' dispute at Dublin airport), the ongoing nonsensical baggage allowances and the related "excess baggage" scam and their rabid hostility to anyone who criticises them (c.f. winner of the Millionth Passenger competition). However I still use them if I can't find a not-too-dear alternative. Call that hypocritical if you want, but how 'n' ever...

On first viewing, I thought the programme did raise some questions although from a series of Dispatches' standing, I would've expected much meatier allegations. There was smoke and there was fire but not enough to burn the playhouse down.

Then later last night, I read the whole correspondence between Ryanair and Dispatches on the Ryanair website and I gotta say, they did seem to be able to refute a lot of the allegations made by the programme, even without having had advance viewing of what was gonna be broadcast.

The two most critical points were in relation to cabin crews' hours worked and general safety. They quoted the actual hours worked by the two reporters which did to a large extent undermine the reporter's claim to be exhausted all the time. I'd LOVE to be working a mere 40-hour average week, but I don't feel anywhere near as exhausted as she said she was. On the safety front, either there's a lot of very tame inspectors around various European regulatory authorities or they do indeed have an OK safety record.

One thing appraent from the correspondence which I'm surprised Dispatches didn't pick up on was the fact that a proportion of cabin crew actually work for Crewlink, a sub-contractor. That in itself still has lots of alarm bells ringing in my head - for one thing, it leaves Ryanair with a way too convenient get-out clause. Same goes for the crew training, the clips shown on the programme showed that to be farcical.

However, my big gripe with the programme was that it didn't really go much beyond showing that Ryanair are cheap and nasty - literally. That's not exactly major breaking news. The impact all depends on whether people are either willing to or simply can't afford not to put up with it. I'm still (though not as trongly) in the "willing to" camp.

Some interesting points - overwhelmingly negative - made by Joe and Mary Public at this forum: http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/ryan.htm

[Dodge]

I;m sure i could be stereotyped as Gordon Gekko type but as previously said no one is changing their opinions of Ryanair based on the ch4 documentary - Macy & Adam don't like Ryanair for refusing unions.

and therefore you only like them for blocking unions?!

Didn't see the documentary. Won't comment on it. Usually found Ryanair staff to be acceptable, ****ing hate the no fixed seat thing....

[Clifford]

So you're saying that Dispatches made up the accusations, and faked /all/ of the video evidence? And you think these authorities are utterly infallible?

adam

I didn't say anything about the allegations being right or wrong, go on a Ryanair flight you see most of the things they showed last night, with a few extreme cases thrown in for good measure. It happens on all airlines, wake up.

Once again let me reiterate my point, if the regulations that are laid down by law in the many countries Ryanair fly into and out of are being met continually I'm going to have to believe/accept this as a guide to go on - it's good enough for the rest of the airlines innit? Of course the rules are not infallible, but I'm not going to huff and puff along with all the rest just cos two people with 5 months experience in the trade make a show, take the highlights and show them to the public in their own manner.

[dahamsta]

"Two people with 5 months experience in the trade" didn't "make a show": two reporters contributed to a well-respected, well-established current affairs program on a well-respected, well-established TV channel. This isn't red-top TV, they didn't air it for shíts and giggles.

And I'm sure the point has already been made: Just because "it happens" doesn't make it ok. If they'd made it about Aer Lingus, would you have been less concerned or more concerned? EasyJet? BA? It's a valid, genuine concern no matter who it applies to; but it particularly applies to these low-budget airlines, that are cutting corners.

adam

[Macy]

Macy & Adam don't like Ryanair for refusing unions.

Too right I don't for that reason, but that's only part of it. I have flown with them many times in the past, so I'm not that anti them that I wouldn't fly with them. However, the recent security and safety revelations, of which the TV programme was only one, make it unlikely I ever will again. I can't seperate the fear of pilots to give out drinks with the case of the pilot who didn't feel able to take time off because his child died. The two journalists were treated like new starters by the more established staff and were getting told how things are done in Ryanair - and that doesn't worry people?

People are saying about the aviation authority regulation, and then dismissing breaches of regulations like the passport checks, and the lifejacket checks as irrelevant. Make up your mind.

Can I just ask, when are the other 3 checks that people keep quoting? Once at check in, once going through security and once at the boarding gate. What is the other one that everyone is quoting? Incidentally, Ryanair now do online check in, so if you fly with them then it's down to one check (as it's okay not to check at boarding according to all the experts on here).

[ColinR]

In fairness, that's a 13½ hour day. Normal work days are 8½ hours, say. Do you really commute (or work that much overtime) five hours every day?! It certainly isn't normal, as you claim.

students eh! sorry i dont know where you work, but lamentably i would have two-three 14 hour days a week, plus the remaining days of 10 1/2 (and i only have a forty min walk to work). plus working at weekends if required. she only had 4 days a week, imo she was acting to the camera.

Of course it did. All programmes do. Shock horror as programme doesn't waffle aimlessly for 60 minutes. In particular, this programme's agenda was to investigate the inner workings of Ryanair.

i don't know why you only half quoted me i said they started out with an agenda (to slate ryanair - not as you say to 'investigate' their inner workings) and they carried on with that agenda irrecpective of their findings. they already knew what their slant was going to be before they started to investigate - that is my problem, it is poor quality tabloid journalism.

[Clifford]

If my employer holds me in such low esteem that they will threaten, or invoke demotion as a result of me raising concerns, then I will seek alternative employment.

Ryanair continues because of 2 criteria. Firstly because people continue to seek employment with them, and secondly because people continue to provide them with custom. Remove one or both of these criteria and Ryanair will cease to exist. HOWEVER. There are numerous people who will continue to offer their services to Ryanair, either as employees or as customers. This raises the point that either the working practices at Ryanair are inappropriate / unsafe in which case those employees that choose to reamin are condoning such practices OR the situation is vastly over-exaggerated to the point where it is becoming tiresome.

[anto1208]

the checks are
1 : at check in
2 : at passport control
3: at security
4 : and the boarding gate
5 : they check your boarding pass as you get on the plane ( you need you passport to get this boarding pass .



people that wont fly ryanair because of safety issues, should nt fly any airline in that case , just because a docomentry showed ryanairs lapse's does nt mean other airlines are doing anything different , and actually your in a metal tube going 500 mph 30,000 feet in the air what the **** is safe about that .

this is my choice when im going home
1: fly with ryan air on there brand new planes for 20 euro liverpool to shannon from check in time to me being at home with my feet up having a cup of tea 2 hours !!!!

choice 2: fly airlingus on there old planes cost 80 to 100 euro flys to dublin i then have to get out of dublin airport , dublin traffic and drive to limerick time till i get my cup of tea from check in allmost 6 hours

no contest ....

no unions great news that means lazy incompetent workers wont be kept in a job by using intimidation and blackmail ,unions serve no purpose anymore .

[monutdfc]

students eh! sorry i dont know where you work, but lamentably i would have two-three 14 hour days a week, plus the remaining days of 10 1/2 (and i only have a forty min walk to work). plus working at weekends if required. she only had 4 days a week, imo she was acting to the camera.

European Working Time Directive
Have you signed an opt-out?

[ColinR]

European Working Time Directive
Have you signed an opt-out?

we only get paid for 37 1/2 hours, our overtime is 'voluntary', so its not recorded.

[Jerry The Saint]

[I] a well-respected, well-established TV channel. This isn't red-top TV, they didn't air it for shíts and giggles.

I have to disagree with this point - Channel 4 has gone rapidly downhill recently and is now, unfortunately, very much a home for "red-top TV". You only have to look at the title of the programme that followed Dispatches - 'Bodyshock: The 80-year-old Children', which follows other screaming-headline titles like 'P!sssed on the Job', 'Balls of Steel', 'The Man Who Ate His Lover', 'Born with Two Heads!' (coming next week) etc. You can even look at the film premieres they're showing lately - 'Rat Race', 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding', 'Final Destination 2' to get an idea where their programming is now focussed.

I felt the manner of the Ryanair documentary fit all too easily with the new, sensationalist, Channel 4 ethos.

[Clifford]

I have to disagree with this point - Channel 4 has gone rapidly downhill recently and is now, unfortunately, very much a home for "red-top TV". You only have to look at the title of the programme that followed Dispatches - 'Bodyshock: The 80-year-old Children', which follows other screaming-headline titles like 'P!sssed on the Job', 'Balls of Steel', 'The Man Who Ate His Lover', 'Born with Two Heads!' (coming next week) etc. You can even look at the film premieres they're showing lately - 'Rat Race', 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding', 'Final Destination 2' to get an idea where their programming is now focussed.

I felt the manner of the Ryanair documentary fit all too easily with the new, sensationalist, Channel 4 ethos.

But it must be taken as gospel, it's on de tele.

[dahamsta]

There's a difference between airing "reality tv" in-line with the current (bizarre) demand for it, and airing "real tv", which must pass ethics committees and the lawyers. Which this programme did, as mentioned in the letters to Ryanair.

I await the lawsuit from Ryanair refuting these allegations as libellous.

adam

[pineapple stu]

students eh! sorry i dont know where you work, but lamentably i would have two-three 14 hour days a week, plus the remaining days of 10 1/2 (and i only have a forty min walk to work). plus working at weekends if required.

There's no way you can classify that as "normal". For what it's worth, I get up at 8:00 and am home by 6:00 most days. Now that's probably not normal either (just an intelligent job choice, but that's another thread! ), but 13½ hours a day is well over what is normal - in fact, I hardly know anyone who works those hours. You can't say she's "acting to the camera" purely on the basis of comparison with your own working hours.

The issue of number of days is interesting though. Did she say it was four days a go she was working? On one of Ryanair's letters, it said that the normal shift is 5-3-5-2 (i.e. five on, three off, etc.), in which case, the four-day shift argument would be ruled out. Maybe she was doing different hours.

i don't know why you only half quoted me

I don't know why you only half-quoted me. I dealt with the rest of your quote following on from what you quoted. They're not going to make a programme called "99.5% of all aircraft are safe", "199 chances in 200 that you'll arrive safely" or "5 of our flights might well drop out of the air at any moment, but hey, that's OK because the other 995 will arrive safely" which just shows things being done properly. We assume things are being done properly and are interested in what's not being done properly. Therefore the show was quite right in targetting what's not being done properly.

Ryanair continues because of 2 criteria. Firstly because people continue to seek employment with them, and secondly because people continue to provide them with custom. Remove one or both of these criteria and Ryanair will cease to exist.

Interesting point, but didn't one of the pilots, when asked, mention that Ryanair were very short of pilots which is why everyone was working up to the maximum allowed hours all the time?

I await the lawsuit from Ryanair refuting these allegations as libellous.

Well, Michael O'Leary has said he's submitted a complaint to the IAA or someone on the assumption that Channel 4 were endangering flights by filming while the plane was in the air even though he had absolutely no evidence at all! Making random counter-accusations to deflect from the main accusations is often a sign of guilt. Be interesting to see what happens here though.

[ColinR]

but 13½ hours a day is well over what is normal - in fact

arrgghhh - that was not what was claimed - it was 13 1/2 hours between getting out of bed (not even leaving her house), and getting back to her house, and only 4 days a week. she claimed this was leaving her absolutly exhausted and almost incapable of doing her work properly. it is my opinion that she either lied to the camera or she is incapable of doing a proper job.

[dahamsta]

14 page discussion on PPRuNe. Bear in mind when reading that there are a LOT of people involved in the industry on that site, from both "sides". More hidden agendas than you could shake a stick at. Like many on that forum, I retain the opinion that while many - not all - of the problems are common knowledge, and Ryanair are hardly the only airline responsible, it remains cause for major concern, and that Ryanair are a primary example.

adam