Stephen Hunt

**tetsujin1979** · 31/12/2014, 5:18 PM

could have been any one of them.
I was in the stadium early before the Spain game and the Italy V Croatia game was still on the big screens when the players came onto the pitch. I was there with a friend of mine and he pointed out the difference between the Ireland players who walked around the stadium, taking photos, taking in the occasion, waving to the fans who were already in their seats, and the Spanish players who just came out, sat in the dugout and went back to the changing rooms. For them, with a European Championship win and a World Cup win, plus numerous European finals behind them, as well as domestic titles, a group game in the European Championships was just another game. For the majority of the Irish players, it was the highpoint of their international careers and the difference in their attitudes to it before the match was striking

**tricky_colour** · 01/01/2015, 2:45 AM

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

That's not true. Muscles repair themselves when inactive. Prior exertion will result in strengthening through such repair (combined with the necessary nutrition, of course). Sure, exercise is good for you, but no muscle will be able to develop or regenerate through constant exercise. Rest is absolutely essential to muscle growth.

Are you suggesting that you would have a better understanding of this than a qualified doctor or medical practitioner? Their expertise is not self-professed. They have training and qualifications to back it up.

"Are you suggesting that you would have a better understanding of this than a qualified doctor or medical practitioner?"

Well yes, sort of anyway.

You say their expertise is not self-professed, but you will probable find a lot of it is.

Let's take another commonly used remedy for injury, ie ice packs?
Is there any evidence they do any good? Well not a lot really.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0...-muscles/?_r=0

But there has been surprisingly little science to support the practice. A 2004 review of icing-related studies published to that point concluded that while cold packs did seem to reduce pain in injured tissues, icing�s overall effects on sore muscles had �not been fully elucidated� and far more study was needed.

Last year, a small-scale randomized trial found no discernible benefits from icing leg muscle tears. The cooled muscles did not heal faster or feel less painful than the untreated tissues.

So there is no clear evidence ice packs help but they are still used pretty religiously.

I think it is a question of degree though.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...lbeing.health1

After that, however, a gradual return to exercise is the best route to recovery. "A lot of people make the mistake of resting completely for four weeks if they get a sports injury, only to launch back into their fitness programme once they feel no more pain," says Ben Ashworth, a physiotherapist at the Olympic Medical Institute in Northwick Park Hospital. "Because the body's tissues harden themselves to activity over time, a sudden return can predispose someone to getting injured again." Instead, says Ashworth, they should consult a physiotherapist who will gently increase their exercise load. Pool-based sessions are often included because the water acts as a giant cushion for the joint and muscles.

I think the problem with these things is there is not a lot of proper scientific evidence, it is kind of hard thing to test anyway, you would need two people with identical injuries, one who rested one who exercised a bit and see who fairs best.

One of the things about ice packs is they are going to reduce the blood flow, and I think blood needs to get to the injured area to repair it.

Anther one here
http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/blog/?p=935

Lead researcher Dr Jo Corbett believes that whilst ice immersion appears to have no benefit, it may also be detrimental to performance and have serious health risks:

�Ice baths are frequently used by sportsmen and women to help them recover after exercise but our results show they don�t work. They also pose a number of potentially serious health risks.�

So there is a lot for sport recovery practise done for which there is little no, or conflicting evidence. I expect resting
falls into a similar category.

Personally I think if you feel able to get up and go for a walk or a game of golf I will probaly not do you any harm.

So some of the professionals may have qualifications, but there is not a lot of evidence their qualification have much
worth. Most just unquestioningly follow what has been done in the past.

I would say your own body is the best judge, if you feel able to do something and it is not too painful it probably
won't do you any harm, obviouly if you feel yourself it is not doing you any good then it might be time to rest more.

**DannyInvincible** · 04/01/2015, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by tricky_colour

"Are you suggesting that you would have a better understanding of this than a qualified doctor or medical practitioner?"

Well yes, sort of anyway.

You say their expertise is not self-professed, but you will probable find a lot of it is.

Despite professional qualifications? Mick Byrne-types and their magic sponges are a thing of the past.

Let's take another commonly used remedy for injury, ie ice packs?
Is there any evidence they do any good? Well not a lot really.

But we're discussing the benefits of rest; not physio-medical consensus on the value of ice-packs.

So there is a lot for sport recovery practise done for which there is little no, or conflicting evidence. I expect resting
falls into a similar category.

But aren't the recovery benefits of rest undisputed? Rest is simply essential. Have you got conflicting evidence or theories which suggest that rest might not be beneficial?

Personally I think if you feel able to get up and go for a walk or a game of golf I will probaly not do you any harm.

But what are you basing this on?

So some of the professionals may have qualifications, but there is not a lot of evidence their qualification have much
worth. Most just unquestioningly follow what has been done in the past.

Why would they be trusted then within the sports world? Are you suggesting a club should take advice from someone like yourself instead because you profess to have as much, if not a greater level of, expertise than the qualified professionals from whom they presently take advice? And do these professionals follow unquestioningly? Science is about trying, testing and observing. If something is proven to be detrimental, you can be sure those on top of their field will not pursue it.

I would say your own body is the best judge, if you feel able to do something and it is not too painful it probably
won't do you any harm, obviouly if you feel yourself it is not doing you any good then it might be time to rest more.

That's just reckless. Just because you don't feel immediate pain doesn't mean you aren't doing yourself potential damage or doing something detrimental to your overall fitness goals.

**tricky_colour** · 04/01/2015, 3:10 AM

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Despite professional qualifications? Mick Byrne-types and their magic sponges are a thing of the past.

But we're discussing the benefits of rest; not physio-medical consensus on the value of ice-packs.

But it is an analogous situation, ie a long established practise based on no evidence.

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

But aren't the recovery benefits of rest undisputed? Rest is simply essential. Have you got conflicting evidence or theories which suggest that rest might not be beneficial?

Undisputed does not mean proven.

I might not dispute Paul McShane is the best Irish player ever, however than does not make it a proven fact.

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

But what are you basing this on?

Logic. If we had evolved to do stuff when we felt unable/unfit to do it we would all be cripples by now.

On the otherside of the coin we have many players who have persistent injuries despite getting the advice
of the best profession medics/trainer.

Look at Jame McCarthy for example, he is no dount getting the best advice from the professionals, but it does
not seem to be doing him much good, especially when it comes to Ireland matches

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Why would they be trusted then within the sports world? Are you suggesting a club should take advice from someone like yourself instead because you profess to have as much, if not a greater level of, expertise than the qualified professionals from whom they presently take advice? And do these professionals follow unquestioningly? Science is about trying, testing and observing. If something is proven to be detrimental, you can be sure those on top of their field will not pursue it.

In a nutshell yes, they would probably fair a lot better with injuries and results if they followed
my advice. The is not much in injury management which is actually proven and tested, it is more
tradition, someone else did it so others copy what he did.

Basically you have some third party telling you he knows more about your body and whether you are
able to do something than yourself, that seems unlikely because you are connected to you body by million
of nerve connections, the third party has essentially no connection to your injury other than a cursory
glance and at best a MRI scan or whatever.

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

That's just reckless. Just because you don't feel immediate pain doesn't mean you aren't doing yourself potential damage or doing something detrimental to your overall fitness goals.

It is not reckless, what is reckless is to listen to some third party who has a certificate from attending some
course and now thinks he knows more about how you feel and how capable you are of doing X Y and Z.

As I say, your body has had millions of years of evolution of trial and error to enable it to determine
when you are capable of doing a particular task, hence it is extremely unlikely it has got it wrong, if
it has we would al be cripples with unhealed injuries.

Conversely the medic has some certificate for going on some course for which he has probably
paid several thousand pounds for.

And of course he is going to get that certificate however useless he is because if he does not get it
he is unlikely to pay you several thousands more pounds to go on the next course.

We all instinctively know when we are fit enough to do something and we are the best judge of that.

I expect a lot of players have done themselves long term damage because some physio has told them
they have rested enough by now when their injury is unhealed and they go on to train based on the
physio's "expert" knowledge rather than trusting their own instincts.

**DannyInvincible** · 04/01/2015, 6:01 AM

You're going off on speculative tangents and, sure, scientific theories can be wrong, but the ice-pack example is not analogous insofar as there is overwhelming and undisputed evidence that rest and inactivity are essential to recovery. Are you denying that this is a proven fact?

There are lots of things we can potentially do that would leave us crippled. Just because we have evolved from a previous state (and whatever about my username!), it doesn't mean we are invincible beings; what we might personally think of as being intuitive can often be wrong. Plenty of humans have suffered unhealable disabilities as a result of doing things they might have thought they were capable of doing but couldn't. I could jump off my apartment's balcony tomorrow because I have the physical capacity to do so, but it's not something I will be doing because, not only will it do me no good, it probably will close to cripple me. I need not use such an extreme example to demonstrate that doing something just because we think we might be capable of doing it is not necessarily beneficial to our physical well-being. It's pretty obvious. When we don't know what the effects of a certain activity might be on a previous injury, a doctor is there to provide us with some idea as to what the likely consequences might be.

In all likelihood, James McCarthy is in need of more rest in order to eradicate his recurring problem. I would suggest that the reason he has seemingly not been given adequate enough time to recover is because of the immediate and pressing interests of his club; they need him (and are paying him a considerable amount of money) to help them win matches in the here and now and probably don't err on the side of caution as much as the medics would prefer if it were an ideal world.

Why do you think clubs are employing qualified medics and physios instead of laymen like yourself if their players would do better following your advice? Out of stupidity and a willingness to waste money?

To say a doctor, medic or physio gives just a cursory glance is grossly unfair to those practicing in those fields. Their job is to offer advice based on the evidence and symptoms; not to tell you that they know better than you. It's not a battle of wits. And the scans and technologies they have available to assist them are invaluable to diagnosing and treating injuries. Dismissing their value is simply ludicrous. You sound suspicious of modern medicine, the practice of stern examination and the awarding professional qualifications. I'd nearly go as far as saying you're being anti-intellectual.

As for your final paragraph, that's something entirely different. That'd be an example of a player being advised by a doctor, medic or physio to rest less and to play through pain he is sensing. Part of the medics role is discerning if the patient is OK; included in that is asking the patient themselves how they feel as well as analysing the objective evidence available. I'm not sure a responsible medic would ever advise a player to play against his own instincts if he makes the medic aware he's still uncomfortable or in pain. It would be a dereliction of duty. Have you any real-life examples of this actually having happened?

**Stuttgart88** · 04/01/2015, 2:23 PM

Just in response to tricky, as a runner I'd never consider a game of golf in the days before a race. It's deceptively tiring, enough to drain important energy reserves that you need to draw upon.

But would I walk or jog to training? Damned right I would.

**TheOneWhoKnocks** · 16/01/2015, 3:39 PM

http://thetilehurstend.sbnation.com/...-cech-incident

Stephen Hunt opens up on Petr Cech incident.

**TheOneWhoKnocks** · 18/01/2015, 2:34 AM

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-30916302.html

Found this part interesting.

"At that level, things move quickly and mistakes are punished. I tried to win the ball 40 yards from goal after a bad touch from one of their midfielders. If I had, it would have been a good chance to break on them, but I didn�t intercept it. Instead I was out of position by three yards, no more. Five seconds later, they�d scored, or more precisely Shane Long scored.

Shane got a lot of praise for his finish and he deserved it but something else stood out for me about his performance over the two games. His movement has gone up another level and it was top class on Wednesday night. Southampton have demonstrated that they are a club which knows how to improve players and while he hasn�t had many opportunities to play centrally, I think he has become a better player since his move.

I knew the manager would pick up on my mistake and there�s no point in saying it�s only three yards because even though it�s a movement that many people won�t notice, for a manager like Mick McCarthy it might as well be a hundred yards".

**Grafter** · 29/01/2015, 9:58 PM

Hope Hunt gets back in Ireland squad in 2015.. think his attitude and pluckiness are valuable attributes... give me an ageing Hunt over some more heralded, younger show ponies anyday... should always be a place in a squad for a crafty veteran looking for one last shot at glory e.g. Houghton in France '98 campaign.

**TheOneWhoKnocks** · 29/01/2015, 10:23 PM

I do worry about the lack of personality and lack of leadership in the current Ireland squads. If for nothing else, it would be good to have Hunt around for those reasons. Although I think the wing positions is one area where we are actually relatively well stocked.