Spurs/Arsenal Champions League Spot?

[Marked Man]

FYI, Unsporting Conduct is a part of the FIFA Laws of the game and includes such items as shirt pulling, cheating & using means to gain an unfair advantage.

Aware of that, thanks. Wasn't aware that it covered having to put the ball out of play when a player is injured. And certainly not aware that it covered having to put the ball out of play when two players fall down, and the referee waves play on.

[mypost]

Unsporting conduct would also be when Pires sticks out a leg at opponents, in order to be "fouled" in the box and win a penalty, or when Henry curls free-kicks into the net, when the ref hasn't even blown his whistle allowing him to take it.

There is no reason why a team should put the ball out when players get injured, it's not even a rule, ffs. The ref decides when a game is stopped, and you must play to the whistle. If you fail to do that and concede a goal as a result, it's your fault. It's about time something was done about giving possession to the opposition when someone gets an injured fingernail. It's no longer sportsmanship, but a spoiling tactic.

[pete]

Watched it a few times & its a a fair goal.

The 2 lads ran into each other so no Spurs foul. 1 guy had already got up. The ref was standing next to them to access if a bad injury & he deemed no head injury so choose not to stop the play. Simple.

Spurs dominated 80% of the game. Should have been 2 nil at HT.

I think even 1 win from 2 now will gte 4th place for Spurs as would mean Arsenal need 2 wins & 1 draw at least.

[Karlos]

What an ironic comment from Wenger. Its amazing how he never sees these things when it works to the advantage of his team. Wenger is the same as Ferguson and Mourinho - a fcuking sore loser.

Because getting our own players sent off works to our advantage. Show me the quotes where Wenger has used to that excuse where his team have gained an advantage. On the Pires penalty incident he DID see it and said he thought it was a penalty from where he stood. The only time I've ever heard him use the 'I didn't see it' line is following contentious issues that damaged our games not took advantage.

I'm sick of this constant mis-quoting of Wenger over this. Irony is people talking about Wenger saying he didn't see it when THEY haven't seen him say it.

I actually had respect for Wenger before this game. Now I just think he is an unsporting pr!ck. I hope either Villareal or Barca do a job on Arsenal and Spurs get the 4th place which they rightly deserve.

That's right it's Arsenal who are the unsporting pr!cks now! ****ing typical responce, full of substance!

Would have loved to see the postings had it been Arsenal doing this yesterday. Maybe we should have lived up to our unsporting behaviour and refused to give the ball back when poor Gardner was so badly injured.

[ColinR]

tbh, as a neutral, i can't see anything wrong with spurs goal. there was no serious injury, and there never was - why should they have put the ball out .

maybe it is down to being naive, but the arsenal players just seemed to stop and wait for spurs to give them time to re-organise.

wenger could have shown a bit more class in his interview afterwards, a bit more like henry who just bypassed any tough question

[Karlos]

or when Henry curls free-kicks into the net, when the ref hasn't even blown his whistle allowing him to take it.

The game should have been abandoned yesterday so with all these free kicks taken without the referree blowing a whistle - are you serious .

There is absolutely no difference under the laws of the game between a direct free kick on the centre circle or in your own corner or indeed just outside the box. The referee is not required to blow a whistle for EVERY free kick under any law. If he's not happy he can pull the play back, something which I've yet to see happen at a Henry freekick and since no FA charge was following (as usually does when it comes to alleged cheating), I think that one probably just was ok. Bit of bad there!

Way to go on stating the bleeding obvious on Pires - I think I actually agreed with you on that 5 posts back.

Have a go at Arsenal cheating day continues......stay tuned for more unsubstantiated examples....

[Karlos]

wenger could have shown a bit more class in his interview afterwards, a bit more like henry who just bypassed any tough question

I don't know how many interviews Henry did but in the one I saw he cagagorically stated that both Davids and Carrick said they didn't see the incident. He said he had to believe them on that and that was dignified but let's call a spade a spade as Wenger did. It's a blatant lie to suggest the players didn't see it (the tape proves that) and in turn suggest that they actually would have put the ball out of play if they HAD.

Right or wrong about putting it out, thats' what the spurs players communicated to fellow professionals. If they said they didn't think it was injury then that's another matter but that's not what Henry suggested and he maintained that he was upset over it.

[eirebhoy]

Would have loved to see the postings had it been Arsenal doing this yesterday. Maybe we should have lived up to our unsporting behaviour and refused to give the ball back when poor Gardner was so badly injured.

Oh the paranoia. Arsenal are probably one of the most supported premiership teams amongst neutrals in England. As far as I can see everyone posting in this thread about the incident are neutrals, except you.

[ColinR]

I don't know how many interviews Henry did but in the one I saw he cagagorically stated that both Davids and Carrick said they didn't see the incident. He said he had to believe them on that and that was dignified but let's call a spade a spade as Wenger did. It's a blatant lie to suggest the players didn't see it (the tape proves that) and in turn suggest that they actually would have put the ball out of play if they HAD.

yes i presume you seen the MOTD interview with henry as well, and thats why i think wenger should have tried to have a bit more class like henry. wenger was suggesting imo that jol was lying - when the replays clearly showed him looking away from the arsenal player sitting down.

i think you are letting your bias here get the better of what should really have been a non story - spurs did nothing wrong.

[Karlos]

Oh the paranoia. Arsenal are probably one of the most supported premiership teams amongst neutrals in England. As far as I can see everyone posting in this thread about the incident are neutrals, except you.

They mightn't be Arsenal fans but it's hardly neutrality - a quick search on older posts can prove that. Some are as anti as I am pro

[Karlos]

I don't want to waste any more energy on this really. I still maintain the ball should have gone out. It's fustrating to have it do it when someone gets injured as happened on at least 10 occassions to Arsenal in the game Vs Villereal on Wednesday while we were in very good position buts it's good sportmanship in my eyes and universally accepted.

Players being players I expect this isn't the last we'll hear of this and I wouldn't be surprised to see a dodgy action resulting in a season defining moment between now and the end of the year and I don't expect any uproar if it occurs.

I'll state again as I did at the very start, Spurs played very well yesterday and were deserving of their point and I've absolutely no argument with the result on the overall 93 minutes. People are bandying about the 'sore loser' tag but it's wide of the mark. Firstly we didn't lose the game nor have we lost anything yet and secondly it's the incident and subsequent denials that are a problem to me - a moral issue if you will and one I will be unmoved on.

I'm also not surprised that no one has mentioned Wenger's actual comments on the Spurs performance as a team and their deserving of something out of the game too - it doesn't fit with the 'sore loser' tag either but it's not being printed anywhere today. The 'printable' issue is purely over the goal and conceived sporting nature of it. Everyone has their opinion on it and Wenger is entitled to have is as am I.


I'm actually surprised no one has said it yet but at least Keano put the ball into the touch - *******!

[Karlos]

yes i presume you seen the MOTD interview with henry as well, and thats why i think wenger should have tried to have a bit more class like henry. wenger was suggesting imo that jol was lying - when the replays clearly showed him looking away from the arsenal player sitting down.

i think you are letting your bias here get the better of what should really have been a non story - spurs did nothing wrong.

It should be noted that Wenger's interview was conducted directly within minutes of walking down the tunnel after the game while Henry had the luxury of a relaxing shower before his. Henry despite his use of words did not dissagee with anything Wenger said. He said he felt they should have put it out and still does feel that way. Speaking to Carrick & Davids he said, he has to take their word on it that they didn't see but he did not say however that they were right to not put it out.

edit: Carrick has now confirmed he should have put the ball out - at least he has the balls to admit that much and by return proves Arsenal had a definate
right to be unhappy about it as I strongly believe.

"It happened so quickly that I did not know he was down injured," Carrick said.

"I was concentrating on getting us forwards. Unfortunately there is a bit of controversy about it.

"I did not know he (Eboue) was down injured otherwise I would have put the ball out. You do not want to score goals like that, but it is just the way it happened."

[thejollyrodger]

I saw the incident with the two arsenal players and it was a completely irrelevant. No spurs players were invovled so the robbie keane goal was perfectly ligit.

I hope spurs can go on and beat west ham and bolton but it will be hard.

[geysir]

They mightn't be Arsenal fans but it's hardly neutrality - a quick search on older posts can prove that. Some are as anti as I am pro

I would concede that there could be bias here because Keane slotted home the goal, personally I couldn't be bothered to be emotional about either team.
Almost every other confirmed neutral has it as a legit goal.
"I didn't see that particular incident"
You can order the tee-shirt on line, its quite popular.
Its been used so often that Arsene eventually used it to parody himself.
What about this report
"Some commentators have disingenuously compared it with the oh-so-generously replayed Arsenal v Sheffield United FA Cup 5th round game from February 1999, to try and put Arsenal in a more favourable light. That was a totally different situation. In that instance, the ball had been put out of play as a result of an injury to United’s winger, Lee Morris. He was genuinely injured and was substituted. After the substitution, most players from both teams were standing in the centre of the pitch waiting for the ball to be returned to United’s goalkeeper and for play to resume. Instead of returning the ball, Arsenal took a quick throw-in down the line, resulting in a “two-on-none” situation, and Overmars easily sidefooted into an empty net. Not quite the same as Saturday’s goal.

A closer analogy is the FA Cup semi-final from April 2003 (again, Arsenal v Sheffield United!) when Wayne Allison was "injured" (well, at least as “injured” as the Arsenal players today) after being crudely taken from behind by Sol Campbell (note - not after running into one of his own players). Allison stayed down in Arsenal’s half, but Arsenal took advantage and played on. Moments later, Michael Tonge was clearly about to intercept an Arsenal pass when he was sent flying over by Graham Poll. Again, Arsenal took advantage, and with two United players out of the picture went on to score. They won 1-0 and went through to the FA Cup Final."
I don’t recall Wenger complaining about that goal."

[Karlos]

"Some commentators have disingenuously compared it with the oh-so-generously replayed Arsenal v Sheffield United FA Cup 5th round game from February 1999, to try and put Arsenal in a more favourable light. That was a totally different situation. In that instance, the ball had been put out of play as a result of an injury to United’s winger, Lee Morris. He was genuinely injured and was substituted. After the substitution, most players from both teams were standing in the centre of the pitch waiting for the ball to be returned to United’s goalkeeper and for play to resume. Instead of returning the ball, Arsenal took a quick throw-in down the line, resulting in a “two-on-none” situation, and Overmars easily sidefooted into an empty net. Not quite the same as Saturday’s goal.

Not the same incident but the situation was the same - it concerns an injured player and an obvious advantage over players who were out of position. Sportingly, Ray Parlour actually threw the ball back to Alan Kelly only for the over-exuberent Kanu, making his debut to unwittingly take advantage. In true sporting fashion, Arsenal offered to replay directly after the game claiming it a hollow and unfortunate victory.

Arsène Wenger, Arsenal's manager, announced: "I have offered to replay the game here at Highbury. It is the only thing I can do. I am trying to repair an accident. Kanu and all of us are very, very sad."

Steve Bruce added: "It was the bitterest moment of my career, and I've been around a long time. I was sickened. I felt we'd been robbed and cheated. But Arsenal's gesture is just what we'd expect from them."


It's a pity Martin Jol hasn't decided to repair an accident that his own player, Michael Carrick has admitted to making. It's still amazing how the so-called neutrals can't see the error but the offending player can (see quotes from Carrick in previous post)

A closer analogy is the FA Cup semi-final from April 2003 (again, Arsenal v Sheffield United!) when Wayne Allison was "injured" (well, at least as “injured” as the Arsenal players today) after being crudely taken from behind by Sol Campbell (note - not after running into one of his own players). Allison stayed down in Arsenal’s half, but Arsenal took advantage and played on. Moments later, Michael Tonge was clearly about to intercept an Arsenal pass when he was sent flying over by Graham Poll. Again, Arsenal took advantage, and with two United players out of the picture went on to score. They won 1-0 and went through to the FA Cup Final."
I don’t recall Wenger complaining about that goal."

Not an accurate comparison to yesterday at all but I'll answer it anyway. Firstly Campbell won a ball from Allison that was deemed to be won fairly by the referee (although it looked like a foul). Allison was not out of position when he lost the ball and Arsenal did not exploit a position he would have taken up as Neil Warnock confessed himself. Warnock's problem was with referee Poll for a) not giving the free kick and b) for running into Tonge. Tonge was not injured in the play, he gets straight back up and plays on. Warnock himself absolved Patrick Vieria of all blame and aimed all his critisicm at Poll.

"He said to me that Michael Tonge had run into him, but that's not how I saw it - he could have stood still and avoided the collision. He missed the free-kick and then took out our player. I'm not blaming Patrick Vieira for not kicking the ball out but while referees are honest they are making honest mistakes."

If Tonge was lying injured then the ball should have gone out of play. The simple fact was, he wasn't.

Allison the striker went down after the challenge from Campbell and after the ball was travelling away. Again he was not out of position nor was the ball or the opponent moving into his vacant position (unlike Eboue yesterday) and Arsenal were not gaining ANY advantage as a result.

The only advantage comes from the referree not deeming the tackle as free kick, something that happened 10 times probably during yesterday's game without complaint. (Poll "I did not think it was a foul and I'm more than happy with my decision.I've only got one angle, and from that angle it looked to me as though the player was going to ground prior to any contact.")

What Arsene has a problem with is something very different than what Neil Warnock had a problem with. The situation couldn't be any more different.

[geysir]

Game one, Mistake was glaringly obvious to everybody on the planet, the solution could not have been more obvious. All Arsenal had to do was allow Sheffield to score a goal for an on the spot repair job.
For game 2, the report mentioned closer analogy, not claiming to be an accurate comparison.
But 10/10 for amazing dexterity with your interpretations of game 2

Have you come across anybody who thought Keane's was not a legit goal.
Anybody in the media, printed, tv or radio ? (lee dixon does not count)

[Karlos]

Have you come across anybody who thought Keane's was not a legit goal.
Anybody in the media, printed, tv or radio ? (lee dixon does not count)

I don't think I ever claimed it wasn't legit, (in hindsight I may have used the word legit describing their other chances or alluded to the LOTG which was probably inaccurate on my side).

I think there is an obvious issue over the sporting nature of the goal, a point backed up by Michael Carrick's own remourse over not putting the ball out in his comments.

I believe there was a justified complaint from Arsenal and I believe the other quotes by Wenger point to the nature of the goal and not the 'sore loser' aspect that it's being portrayed as. His comments on the Spurs performance are there for all to see.

For all the talk of old examples highlighting Arsenal's actions, I've yet to see any savy media journo bring up the Andy Sinton incident in 96. Fans don't forget as easily as the meeja, that much is apparant!

I hope I'm done on this but I have noticed Neil hasn't been around yet so this one might roll on! I think my own feelings on this (as openingly biased as anyone else's) are there for all to see.

[Stuttgart88]

I've got a dose of the Martin Jols on this one: I didn't see it. I saw about 85 mins of the game, but my baby son's appetite made me nip out to the kitchen for a crucial few minutes.

On the replays I only saw the Davids cross & Robbie's finish. First off, fair play to Robbie. He timed his run well and lost his marker brilliantly. Great to see him doing so well.

It was only later that I heard that there was controversy.

As a general observation I think this lark of kicking the ball out everytime a player gets a minor knock is infuriating. It leaves the game wide open for cheats to prosper - Albania at Lansdowne Road immediately springs to mind. What age were we all when we first learnt the adage "play the whistle"?

If I was Wenger I'd be far more upset that Arsenal showed none of the class or hunger that has been present in any of their successes. That's certainly how I felt. I suppose deep down this game was an unwelcome sideshow to the Arsenal players & it showed. But runs of form build their own momentum and Arsenal should have given it everything from the start in my opinion. It was similar at WHL in the first game. Arsenal only started playing when it looked likely they'd lose.

I also think Wenger, no matter how genuine he felt his reasons were, should have maintained a more dignified demeanour. Throwing the toys out of the pram only shows Jol he's rattled. I honestly think that Wenger, Ferguson & Mourinho are a shocking example of sportsmanship to the hundreds of thousands of children who adore them. I'd expect more from Wenger than the other two but he continuously lets me down in this regard.

Wenger said he'd never seen anything like it in English football, obviously forgetting all about the FA Cup match Arsenal won against Sheffield United

Overall a fair result and one that suits Spurs far better than Arsenal. Hopefully Arsenal will make 4th place an irrelevance. And regardless of how Arsenal end up in Europe I'm not going to get too bothered about 4th place anyway. Any team who loses 11 games a season barely deserves 10th, let alone 4th, so it'd be a hollow "success".

I'd also add that for all his ability, Jose Antonio Reyes infuriates me. He plays the game in such a dishonest, sly & mean-spirited manner I find him hard to take. Cop on for your own sake lad.

[eirebhoy]

The situation couldn't be any more different.

You could use that sentence for the incident you're trying to compare Saturday's goal too aswell.

[NeilMcD]

Great Post Stuttgart I agree with everything you have said there.

Overall the game was a very good one with Carrick controlling the game for long periods. Diaby never got close at any stage and as a result Carrick could play his passes with ease. Spurs played very well for about 65 minutes of the game and should have been at least 1 goal up with they did eventually scored. Arsenal only started playing when Henry Fabregas and Eboue came on to the pitch. Shortly after that they were a goal down and had to chase the game. I thought their attitude and work ethic in the 1st half was terrible. Henry's goal was sublime and he is a great player and character.

On the spurs goal it is clear that Carrick did not see that the players were injured. Also Sky Sports confirmed yesterday that Jol did not see that the players were injured as he was clearly looking at Davids all the time even when Carrick had the ball and he was saying Play Play Play as in play the ball to Davids.

Secondly even if the players had seen the incident I would have had no problem with them playilng on for one simple reason. The referee checked on the 2 players as they went to ground Gilberto was getting up and the ref seemed happy to let the game go on. I think we need to go back to a time when the referees whistle is what determines the start and stop of play. I felt that last wed in the Villareal game when a few players were cheating by staying on the ground. The ref on Saturday was happy that the players were ok and continued to let the game go on. Spurs scored. I honestly dont see a problem with it and I think I would say the same if it happened the other way.

However Lehmans reaction was terrible as he went straight to Davids when if anybody it was Carrick that should have been confronted. He knew that Davids is a hot head with a suspect temperament. Wenger should not have given an interview so soon after the game if he could not control his emotions. I know he is obliged to give an interview but he could have sent Pat Rice out. Callilng someone a liar and a disgrace and possibly cheat is very strong words esp having not looked at the pictures again. If everybody was to call Wenger a liar everytime he said he did not see an incident the game would be in chaos. To be honest I think Wenger was frustrated at his own teams performance and he was using this incident to vent that anger. Its a dangerous game that he played on Sat by putting all his eggs in one basket by trying to win the Champions League. Seeing Arsenal this season and Chelsea with all their money ets, It does show what an achievement that the treble season of 1999 for Man Utd was.


Finally one thing that I am happy with with Spurs is their behaviour in matches this season. They have had 3 players sent off Dawson twice and Davids but none was for bad behaviour but just 2 bookings that are quite easily picked up in the Premiership. There have been no incidents were Spurs were involved in nasty play this season with over the top tackles etc etc. Martin Jol has also impressed me with his diplomacy and fair assessments after games also. This cannot be said for previous Spurs managers i.e. Glenn Hoddly Gerry Francis etc etc.

A few weeks ago I felt that Spurs would beat Everton lose to Man Utd and draw with Arsenal. That is exactly what has happened and I also felt that West Ham would get to the final of the FA Cup which is good for Spurs in my view. Bolton are terrible on their travels at the moment and Spurs are in good form in relation to performances so I feel that 6 points is well within Spurs grasp. Spurs still need to beat the top teams but that will come with experience.