National Pay Agreements

**pete** · 01/02/2006, 11:09 AM

The average wage in the public sector grew by 9.3 percent in the year to last September - almost four times the rate of inflation during the same period.

RTE

Time to end public sector banchmarking & have private sector benchmarking now that public sector wages rising higher? Maybe get the public sector to pay for private sector wage increases?

Also seems little point to National Pay Agreements as the Unions strike when they choose anyway so no benefit.

**Roverstillidie** · 01/02/2006, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by pete

RTE

Time to end public sector banchmarking & have private sector benchmarking now that public sector wages rising higher? Maybe get the public sector to pay for private sector wage increases?

Also seems little point to National Pay Agreements as the Unions strike when they choose anyway so no benefit.

well done pete. clownish post of the month.

public sector benchamrking has ended now pay rates have 'caught up' to close to the private sector equivalent. bear in mind many civil servants were paid close to the minimum wage before this exercise. on the ball there pete

explain why the public sector (ie the taxpayer) would want to subsidise private industry?

what unions are you talking about? the only public sector strike in recent times were the postmen, who were explicitly not part of partnership/benchmarking. or is this a reference to the industrial unrest in irish ferries?

**ColinR** · 02/02/2006, 9:01 AM

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

what unions are you talking about? the only public sector strike in recent times were the postmen, who were explicitly not part of partnership/benchmarking.

the original post makes absolutly no reference to public sector unions going on strike - so not sure what your comeback here is about

anyway according to:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/w...cqrr9kmbZk.asp

from (31/01/06) "PAY restraint in the public sector has to be given top priority in the upcoming partnership talks, the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) believes.

In its winter bulletin the State think-tank argues this can be achieved without damaging the quality of people joining the service.

Studies show that since 1994 public sector employees earned between 8.3% to 15% a year more than their private sector counterparts."

If the civil servants were on min wages back then, they certainly are not anymore.

I think there should certainly be a restraint by all sides in the new national pay agreement. we can't look at a 'rip off republic' in isolation to the massive pay rises of the past decade. Each pay rise adds an additional expense, which in turn is passed on the customers, who complain about being ripped off (but are happy with their massive pay rise etc etc.)

**Dodge** · 02/02/2006, 9:08 AM

The problem with benchmarking was that it was far too heavily slanted in favour of higher grades. I'm not sure of exact figures but higher grades got something like 15-18% and lower grades got 6% at one stage...

Vast majority of civil servants still being paid less than private sector equivalents.

Civil Service Pay Scales

**rebs23** · 02/02/2006, 3:51 PM

A lot of recent reports indicate that the Civil Service Rates are above those in the private sector. The ESRI and other economists have all concluded that the overall package available in the public sector for all grades of employee is above that of the private sector.

The problem with comparing just the pay scales(as dodge has done above) is that you are excluding the pension and sickpay provisions available in the Public Sector, the holidays available and other leave options. It is also very secure with little possibility of being made redundant or getting sacked.

I am suprised this is causing debate as even SIPTU and other Private Sector Unions such as the IBOA are saying that Public Sector pay and conditions are superior to those available in the private sector.

Partnership however has outlived it's usefulness and for the vast majority of workers has little relevance.

**Dodge** · 02/02/2006, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by rebs23

I am suprised this is causing debate as even SIPTU and other Private Sector Unions such as the IBOA are saying that Public Sector pay and conditions are superior to those available in the private sector.

Funnt that. The civil service unions say the opposit. Standard leave in the civil service is 21 days

**rebs23** · 03/02/2006, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Funnt that. The civil service unions say the opposit. Standard leave in the civil service is 21 days

They are saying that but no one believes them not the ESRI, their own colleagues in the ICTU or I suspect the general public. Not funny at all really.

**Dodge** · 03/02/2006, 10:04 AM

Not sure its meant to be funny. Any links for a non union view on it?

**Roverstillidie** · 03/02/2006, 11:37 AM

i find it hard to believe the average paycheck in the private sector is 26k.

its certainly not the white collar average, which we are by and large comparing.

**pete** · 03/02/2006, 11:37 AM

Public sector has leave entitlements that would be very rare in the private sector - can leave for few years & come back to the same job. Can't be fired & will always get soem pay raise. If you include the teachers (i'm sure they included in average pay) then the average annual leave will increase.

"Partnership" has indeed outlived its usefulness a long time ago. I've never received a National Pay wage rate & its only a government-union partnership which represents the minority of the working population. Also the unions are heavily in favour of the public sector as most of its members are part of it.

Can anyone suggest a good reason for national pay agreement?

**rebs23** · 03/02/2006, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

i find it hard to believe the average paycheck in the private sector is 26k.

its certainly not the white collar average, which we are by and large comparing.

Earnings from CSO http://www.cso.ie/statistics/public_sector_earnings.htm
Earnings in some private sector industries http://www.cso.ie/statistics/earnings_dist_business.htm
Earnings from Banking, Insurance etc http://www.cso.ie/statistics/earning...ilding_soc.htm
Very difficult to use these comparisons as they don't reflect all the benefits associated or cover all the costs associated with Public Sector or Private Sector pay. No doubt about it though Public Sector pay and terms and conditions are superior to those in the Private Sector across the comparible grades.

**Student Mullet** · 03/02/2006, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Can anyone suggest a good reason for national pay agreement?

They reduce the number of silly strikes.

**pete** · 03/02/2006, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Student Mullet

They reduce the number of silly strikes.

But they do not stop strikes which was the mainly selling point originally. Unions are still striking which really is a breech of the terms of the National Pay Agreements.

**Dodge** · 03/02/2006, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by rebs23

No doubt about it though Public Sector pay and terms and conditions are superior to those in the Private Sector across the comparible grades.

I think you'll find there is major doubt...

**rebs23** · 03/02/2006, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

I think you'll find there is major doubt...

Only amongst the Public Sector unions. Independant economic analysts (ESRI), Private Sector Unions have all stated that Public Sector pay is ahead of those in the Private Sector across comparable grades.
If you take into account leave provisions and pension/sick pay provisions then the difference is even more pronounced.

**Dodge** · 03/02/2006, 5:07 PM

Originally Posted by rebs23

Only amongst the Public Sector unions. Independant economic analysts (ESRI), Private Sector Unions have all stated that Public Sector pay is ahead of those in the Private Sector across comparable grades.

Where does ESRI say that?

If you take into account leave provisions and pension/sick pay provisions then the difference is even more pronounced.

And what are these fantastic leave provisions that civil servants have?

**Macy** · 06/02/2006, 7:57 AM

I'm against National Partnership Agreements for two main reasons.

1) Partnership doesn't work in practice because Management and the Government only pay it lip service. IBEC inparticular have an appalling record at censuring their members like Irish Ferries or Doyle Concrete

2) Following on from 1, the Unions hands are too tied by the agreement despite clear breaches by Government, Government appointee's and IBEC members. For example, imo there should've been a general strike of the Irish Ferries dispute, but the leaders haven't the balls/ have their hands tied by the national agreements.

On public service pay, I really don't believe it to be true about the figures. You have to remember that public service pay includes areas with massive overtime bills like the Guards and the massive increases for the top civil servants (which includes all the spoofers in Leinster House). No one's telling me that CO's and EO (Grade above CO?) are paid more than their public service equivalents. Also the problem is the higher scales, and the percentage increases by all the wage agreements and benchmarking rather than fixed increases in salaries. My union argued that it should be a fixed amount rather than a percentage - it was IBEC that argued the other way iirc.

You can argue about the other benefits, but definitely a case of swings and roundabouts. Since the mid 90's public and civil servants pay full PRSI and contribute to their pensions, on top of tax. Only benefit is the defined benefit pension. My mates in the private sector have pension schemes with employer contributions as well, get their health insurance paid for, and get bonuses, 53rd week at Christmas, paid for nights out etc etc. Not going to argue Civil and Public servants have it bad, but neither does the private sector in comparison. IBEC/ERSI/Whatever other right wing think tank doesn't compare like with like. Only thing that ever has was the benchmarking process, which because they didn't get the result they wanted, right wing commentators (and private sector workers) have been discrediting since.

**rebs23** · 06/02/2006, 8:45 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Where does ESRI say that?

And what are these fantastic leave provisions that civil servants have?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/fro...66HM1ESRI.html
Article on ESRI's Quarterly economic reports. I think it spells it out quite clearly.

Uncertified sick leave provisions, certified sick leave provisions, Unpaid career breaks over 5 year periods ( leave twice unpaid for a total of 5 years and get your old job back), generous incremental leave entitlements, etc, etc

**Macy** · 06/02/2006, 9:03 AM

Originally Posted by rebs23

Uncertified sick leave provisions, certified sick leave provisions, Unpaid career breaks over 5 year periods ( leave twice unpaid for a total of 5 years and get your old job back), generous incremental leave entitlements, etc, etc

What incremental leave entitlements? So in every other industry in Ireland higher grades don't get more leave than lower ones? Or are you talking about the extra day after 5 years at the same grade?

Nice to see you're expressly against the career break provision that was basically brought in for women in the work place. I suppose you're against maternity leave too? And just for information - a job isn't held open for you, you get the next available job at the same grade as what you left at. Someone isn't in temping for five years holding a job open for them, and career breaks (and all other flexible working arrangements) are subject to management approval, and they are often refused.

Can you copy and paste the sick pay benefit differences as outlined in that report? I can't seem to see them in it. Or could you provide another link to where sick leave comparisons are made.

**rebs23** · 06/02/2006, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by Macy

What incremental leave entitlements? So in every other industry in Ireland higher grades don't get more leave than lower ones? Or are you talking about the extra day after 5 years at the same grade?

Nice to see you're expressly against the career break provision that was basically brought in for women in the work place. I suppose you're against maternity leave too? And just for information - a job isn't held open for you, you get the next available job at the same grade as what you left at. Someone isn't in temping for five years holding a job open for them, and career breaks (and all other flexible working arrangements) are subject to management approval, and they are often refused.

Can you copy and paste the sick pay benefit differences as outlined in that report? I can't seem to see them in it. Or could you provide another link to where sick leave comparisons are made.

Go to IRN (Indutrial Relations News)http://www.irn.ie/ where they have a breakdown of benefits and pay across various sectors, etc. (you'll have to subscribe)
Don't be ridicolous about me being against Maternity Leave, incremental leave or the provisions for career break. The point I am making is that Public Sector pay and the overall terms and conditions of employment in the Public Sector are superior to the private sector. Thats all!! What you want to with that information is up to yourself. If you choose to get upset and presume my position on it without ever hearing my opinion on what should be done (if anything) about superior Public Sector pay well then........