QuoteNice Idea, But I think One H-Block should be left standing as a permanent reminder/memorial to all prisoners who served time there from all sides of the political divide
Wil it happen or not, and if it does .... is it a good thing ??
40,000+ seater, for GAA, Rugby and football. Linfields ground will reduce capacity then.
The SFAI are the governing body for grassroots football in Ireland, not the FAI. Its success or the lack of is all down to them.
Nice Idea, But I think One H-Block should be left standing as a permanent reminder/memorial to all prisoners who served time there from all sides of the political divide
A big NO if you ask me. A point also taken by the lads of the South Belfast NISC where I drink.
The Maze is way out of the civilised world, while they have a ground now at walking distance of Belfast city centre. Why not just expanding Windsor? There is place for some expansion, no spectacular maybe but definitely play for a few thousands extra.
Because Windsor will never be a seen as a ground for all of Northern Ireland. it has way too much baggage and its physical location doens't help...Originally Posted by Gerrit
A new greenfield site would be the only hope 9if any) of a ground welcomed by both communities
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
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Geographically Windsor is excellently located, the facilities are there already, the only thing one can have against it is that it is property of Linfield. But Linfield have clearly done good effords to lose the sectarian element, so maybe the IFA should look forward instead of looking back, and looking forward means that both location-wise and money-wise expanding Windsor would be a better idea than a stadium somewhere in the outskirts of Lisburn.
No chance for all the changes that Windsor will not always be associated with loyalism.
I thought there was good support for a Greenfield site but maybe no agreement on where that would be?
Keeping Windsor would be the worst possible option.
Not only does it give Linfield an extremely unfair financial advantage, its very location prevents many people from going to matches.
The Ormeau Park suggestion is a complete nonsense. I lived at the edge of Ormeau Park for 5 years and there just is not the space to build a stadium with sufficient parking etc.
Also why destroy one of the nicest areas of park in Central Belfast to build a stadium?
As Jimmy Boyce said, the Maze option is the "only game in town".
The government are handing a 40,000 seater stadium to the IFA on a plate.
It is the only option that has football, rugby and GAA on board - and that was a pre-requisite for government funding,
There will be no other option and if this isn't accepted, the funding from government will not be forthcoming.
The Maze site is easily accessible from all parts of Northern Ireland - it is right beside the M1.
It seems to be mainly Belfast people who are complaining about the location of the stadium - but there a lot of potential users of the stadium who are based outside of Belfast.
That is about the size of it from what i can see ... the gov are handing it to them, for god sake please let them have the sense to make the right decision on this one. It is hard not to make the right one too !!!
The SFAI are the governing body for grassroots football in Ireland, not the FAI. Its success or the lack of is all down to them.
Sorry Gerrit - but you just don't get it. It's another example of where you're just not grasping the less-than-subtleties to life in Northern Ireland. Everything you've said may well seem logical to you, or anyone else not from this part of the world. But it's Belfast we're talking about here - not Belgium....
Read the responses of everyone else on this thread. Doesn't matter what you do to Linfield's ground - nothing short of flattening it and building it afresh from scratch in a different shape would erase the fact that it's not a neutral ground. It has far too long an association with a very one-sided club, and that association would be ongoing in any 'national' stadium that was developed there.
And even if you were to flatten Windsor, hoof out Linfield, and rebuild the ground afresh in a different shape - it'd STILL be located in a staunchly Loyalist working class area. So nothing short of local ethnic cleansing could lead to Windsor EVER being seen as neutral !
Sure why not build it up in Andersonstown instead......?
P.S. I suspect strongly that the vast majority of yer buddies in the South Belfast NISC are from the community that would have little fear walking through the Village area.....
So nothing short of local ethnic cleansing could lead to Windsor EVER being seen as neutral !
That mindset says it all.
How neutral and welcoming is the Brandywell to the unionist community of "Stroke" City or anywhere in the Republic of Ireland for that matter ?.
No matter what N.I. football does it will never be enough.
No to the Maze.
One minor point - the Brandywell isn't the "national" stadium.
Anyway, the IFA approved the Maze stadium plan last night.
Fair play!
The job .... fair play to them. It was a no brainer but its good the made the right choice. All boads well for footie up north.
The SFAI are the governing body for grassroots football in Ireland, not the FAI. Its success or the lack of is all down to them.
It's not a mindset. It was an exaggeration to try to highlight the complexity of the situation to a consitently naive Belgian. I suppose you'll use it anyway to claim that I'm advocating ethnic cleansing of the Village before any Fenian dares to set foot at a Norn Iron game.....
As for the Brandywell :
Firstly - it isn't, nor does it claim to be, and nor has it ever claimed to be, a 'national stadium'.
Secondly - given the demographics of the City of Derry in general, and the West Bank of ther Foyle in particular - it should come as no surprise that the ground is in a nationalist area. Shock horror....
Thirdly - how welcoming is the Oval to the Nationalist community or 'Solitude' to the Unionist community ? And what feckin relevance does it have to a national stadium anyway ??
Fourthly - how welcoming is "anywhere in the Republic of Ireland" to the Unionst community ?!?!
Again with the embattled mindset, and the feeling that Northern Ireland football has somehow been bending over backwards to breaking-point in doing all within its grasp to keep those pesky Fenians happy. Oh dear...
No to stupidity....
Steve, you are right: the people in the South Belfast NISC are mostly (if not all) Loyalists. Most people follow Linfield, NI, and Rangers. So I am not saying it's the most neutral place -- however, I may drink there often, please don't call them 'buddies'. It's not because it's the pub I frequent that all people in it are suddenly close friends or so. I try to stay neutral in the whole thing and have people I go on with in both communities.
Don't picture me having become a loyalist or so who goes drinking in his unionist den. That NISC is just close to my home (I happen to live very close to Sandy Row) and they broadcast lot of games ; I drink there because of the football and not because of the fact that the other pub visitors are unionists.
One thing though: one reason to not move away from Windsor: the nationalists will very likely keep on supporting the Republic. Fair play to them, they have the choice to support whoever they want, no problems there. But should the IFA move out of a perfectly fine stadium to please a group of people of which 95% will still prefer supporting the South?
I invite you to check www.ukfootballforums.net, where there's many Northern Irish as well. However, here most NI members are nationalists and you hear another story than there at ukfootballforums.net, where most are unionist. Read their arguments not to ditch GSTQ and not to move out of Windsor.
I won't choose a side in the whole thing, it's not up to immigrants to say what the locals should do or think. I just say, I think what they write on that board (and what Motorcycleman also posts here) does make sense.
We already have the Football For All campaign here in the North, Linfield -the symbol of Unionism in NI football- tries very hard to ditch any sectarian element, and so far the hatred towards 'fenians' has been banned with success (remember the comments on the Linfield board after a few nuts sang the Billly Boys in Longford ? All true Bluemen were deeply ashamed). Linfield by the way also opened Windsor Park a few times to GAA games.
Seriously, effords are being made. If after all of this Windsor still doesn't qualify, then maybe it's the nationalist side who is not willing to try to forget the past?
Financially Linfield has a sort of unfair profit indeed. However, it doesn't stop even their bitter rivals Glentoran of running a very active NISC which frequents the games at Windsor.
Last edited by Gerrit; 20/01/2006 at 7:38 PM.
Apologies if it seemed I was accusing you of taking a side Gerrit. However - you did use the word "lads" to describe them, which is a fairly amiable term suggesting you were familiar/friendly with them. Regardless - I've no bone with you being friendly with anyone, as that that wasn't my point.
This arguement always comes up, and to be honest it exposes the deeply limited mindset involved. Seeking to make the Northern Irish international football experience more appealing and inviting to the Nationalist community shouldn't be done or not done on the basis of the impact it'll have (which is only ever considered in the very immediate term) on 'bums on seats'. It should be done because it is the right thing to do. Simple as that.
Northern Ireland has been a deeply divided society for decades. It is thankfully now at the stage where those divisons are getting narrower rather than wider. Every facet of NI public life as a role to play in continuing that positive momentum, and football is no different. If the IFA do everything within their power to 'neutralise' the Northern Irish international football experience and Nationalists still refuse to turn-up, then they can hold their hands up with a clear conscious and say "Well we've genuinely done our bit for the future of this proviince". They wiill still get the plaudits, and those within the Nationalist community who are perceived as using the Northern Ireland team as a political football will be forced to shut the feck up. Those things alone should be reason enough to make the required changes - not merely a desire to have a few more people come and support the team.
I know the arguements Gerrit - I've had them recited to me numerous times. Most I can relate to, and some I accept. I completely fail to accept the retention of GSTQ as the sole anthem played at NI international games though, and I'm convinced that it is in-fact indefensible. Even the Welsh and Scots don't do it, nor does the Irish rugby team. If you argue with someone on this issue their defence inevitably crystalises down to identity, politics and this ridiculous belief that they've 'given too much already - no more'. That is because it is entirely indefensible to try to use solely a one-sided anthem to represent a divided community. Common sense even supports this. I'm happy to debate this issue with any one in a separate thread if required.
Your absolutely right re Linfield, and the club and the majority of its fans are to be applauded for that (although they haven't opened Windsor park to GAA games. Just their training grounds to a camogie team. Not to take away from the positivity of that gesture).
Bottom line is that Windsor will cease being the International stadium once the maze project is up-and-running. That suggests that those in the positions of power and decision-making looked at the situation and decided that Windsor wasn't ideal - for a variety of reasons. So you're right - let's ALL forget the past, and look forward to a cracking new stadium at the Maze. I can't wait to catch a game there...
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 20/01/2006 at 10:49 PM.
You drink in the South Belfast NISC?
Fair play to you
That place gets a very bad rep, and they turned away the lads from the Queens NISC after a recent game.
Don't feel too bad, they turned away Callum Best on the night of his fathers funeral, as amazing as it seems, totally true, it could only happen in Northern Ireland!You drink in the South Belfast NISC?
Fair play to you
That place gets a very bad rep, and they turned away the lads from the Queens NISC after a recent game.
Agree with most of that post apart from the above, if the population of Northern Ireland is getting less divided how come the two biggest political parties are now the DUP and Sinn Fein!
Even a cursory comparison of the way life was 5, 10, 20 years ago supports that things have changed a lot.
As we all know - elections cause the people of Northern Ireland to temporarily clamber into their sectarian trenches. This will continue for a considerable period of time, but doesn't negate the evidence of change that is evident everywhere else.
I'd also argue that SF and the DUP are the 2 parties best placed to continue the narrowing of the divide - as there's no-one more 'extreme' looking over their shoulder to criticise them and keep them in-check (which is what crippled the UUP).
And sooner or later SF and the DUP will start talking to each other directly and - shock, horror - form an administration in the Assembly. It happens at Council level - where for years you couldn't even get them into the same chamber at the same time. So regardless of who people vote for, the change is still there for all to see....
Isn't a "lad" just slang for a man?
Anyway, some of them are 'drinking buddies' (that I never see outside of the bar however), but the people here I deal with regularly are mixed. Some are nationalist, some are loyalist. It's also not an issue I often talk about with them, and as long as I get along with someone I get to know here I don't care if he/she is nationalist or loyalist.
Agree. No one brought up this argument before in a debate I was involved in, but you are right.
One condition though I think is that if this new neutrally-placed stadium is out of Belfast, is that special bus services from belfast are organised to the stadium and back. Otherwise I'm afraid that for both travelling fans and home support the location could be a disadvantage. Also, opening a few pubs next to the site may be a good idea, as currently it seems a bit out of the vivid areas... Guess the IFA can make an agreement with Ulsterbus for special bus services though.
I personally would say a different anthem would be nice, but that's just my idea. It seems the majority of fans hold on to GSTQ.
I'd say Danny Boy/Londonderry Heir would be a good alternative (or why not even "Alternative Ulster" by Stiff Little Fingers ?: cross-community, pro-peace and anti-sectarian, and nicely rocking)
Fair play to you and any nationalist who will admit that. I sometimes attend Linfield games (I live close to Windsor, that's why. I am definitely not a true LFC fan) and have not come across any sectarian element at all. Unless you consider it sectarian when the Linfield fans hooray when the speaker announces Celtic has lost, but that's not sectarian an sich.
What stops me from actively following Linfield by the way (which would be easy for me given the location) is the bond with Rangers, which unlike Linfield did not purify itself from sectarianism.
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