IFA and the Maze

[Krstic]

If the IFA are the ones most in need of the stadium and the other associations are merely along for the freebie then I think the IFA's criteria cannot and should not be simply dismissed. What is happening here is some form of social engineering by people with little or no stake-holding in the game.

This shouldn't really concern you Bohsfan, unless you're finally going to admitt that you are in fact from Northern Ireland.

[Krstic]

Not your stalker Bohsfan, although I do keep an eye on your posts. As anyone can see the mjority of your previous posts have an unhealthy interest in things that happen in Northern Ireland, yet you seem to have little or no interest in bohemians, the team you claim to support.

You were on here last summer having a go at Derry City and reappeared recently again having a go at Derry City.
And your comment on this topic about the 'Stake-holders' in the Maze situation, re-affirms my opinion that you're not who you say. (Although your continual use of 'Mate' and reference to 'Peelers' last year had already been confirmation enough)

So if only you'd stop the charade then maybe i'd ignore you

[Krstic]

Check the majority of your posts Bohsfan, again you're very selective. Notice how you only replied to that part of the post and ignored tha FACTS in the rest of it.

And on the stalker issue, I do believe that it was you who replied to me in this topic.

[Dassa]

but behaving like spoilt children because all the specifications are not to your liking is getting a bit boring.

The GAA asked for a 40,000+ seater stadium outside of Belfast, and surprise surprise they got their exact specifications so whats wrong with football asking for theirs.

[Dassa]

Well apart from the fact the country you refer to is one of Britain's last colonial outposts, it does not exist either in the eyes of the U.N., N.A.T.O or the E.U.! Fine logic.
Most Nationalists would disagree with you!

Im sorry but I thought this was a football forum lads and as far as I know FIFA and EUFA both accept NI as a country. And for that record that supposed colonial output is my country that Im proud to live in not the UK or Ui but NI and is recognised more as NI than a UI is.

You are taking what is a good forum lads and ruining it with your wee sly comments, if you dont want NI fans on the forum dont have an IL or NI section.

[Duncan Gardner]

All these arguements mean nothing when put up against the Governments' main Criteria: All 3 major sporting bodies must be willing to use it

Only in the sense that if (as seems likely) the three sports won't all show willing, and thus that the Government will quietly abandon the plan.

But of course the Govt. won't operate in a vacuum: a well-organised lobby from fans is likely to be a main factor influencing them.

But you can't just say "all these arguements mean nothing". If you think 'things are as they are and we can't change them' fair enough, but you must realise others disagree and are prepared to do something about it!

The sporting body who require it the least, will in no way be willing to use any stadium in the proposed Belfast locations. The GAA simply do not require this stadium, however are not silly enough to turn down a free stadium

Agreed the GAA don't need it but are politically savvy. And so are more likely to hedge than to dismiss the Maze plan outright.

It's not free: it will cost/ waste £85 million of public money. That's £50 for everyone in NI!

I'm sure the Rugby people could take it or leave it, yet they too are not so stupid as to refuse a freebie

See immediately above.

That leaves the IFA, the organisation who most require a stadium.
Again this organisation is not going to turn down a gift like this, but behaving like spoilt children because all the specifications are not to your liking is getting a bit boring

If it bores you, why are you responding to it? It's not a gift- how many times?- and rational arguments are neither spoilt nor childish.

The quoting of Polls carried out by different people are also overshadowed by the best poll of all, up until Northern Ireland's recent Wales and England Games, it was quite easy to get a tickets for your International games. The demand wasn't great for going to watch a Game in 'Belfast City', so why would the demand increase now?

Naughty. The 'polls' are asking significantly different questions, viz

a) do you- random resident of NI- want to watch them play football at Windsor Park?

b) do you- similarly, random- think a new build at the Maze would be good/ better?

c) do you- fan interviewed watching game at Windsor- want the Maze instead?

You can't simply assume that demand is largely fixed, affected only by a once in a generation game against England. It might well increase in a new stadium, in the city, with better facilities in an area less perceived to be intimidating.

Like many NI fans interviewed by poll c), I think crowds would increase if modestly at Ormeau, but would fall sharply at the Maze.

If you want to stay in Belfast you might as well stay at Windsor and re-develop it. Other wise take the freebie and enjoy it, attempt to expand your audience and get qualifying for a few tournaments

Personally, I wouldn't yet abandon Windsor as a mid-term venue: Ormeau and Maysfield may not get beyond the planning stage. But Windsor is widely agreed to be out of date and badly sited.

If not, Build your own stadium or fix up Linfield's and keep on playing to
10-15,000 people

See above, we plan to, though tending to crowds of 20,000.

If the IFA are the ones most in need of the stadium and the other associations are merely along for the freebie then I think the IFA's criteria cannot and should not be simply dismissed. What is happening here is some form of social engineering by people with little or no stake-holding in the game

Broadly, I agree, though I'd describe it more as politicking. The Government wants a big project to show off its peace dividend. OK, but a stadium at the Maze is unjustified. If the SF and DUP on Lisburn Council can agree to a museum to paramilitarism there, that's up to them. I won't be visiting.

This shouldn't really concern you Bohsfan, unless you're finally going to admitt that you are in fact from Northern Ireland

That's a bit strong- why shouldn't it concern him/her? Just because you're bored doesn't mean everyone else is. In any case, since (I think) you live in NI, why aren't you concerned about such a waste of your taxes?

[Krstic]

I can assure you Bohsfan I haven't complained to anyone about you.
As for the bother of creating a whole character, awful bother alright to register on here!!!!

And I liked your second defensive quote 'No surrender'

Maybe we should all sing 'simply the best now'

Why don't you post up your other numerous posts???

[Krstic]

Dassa and Duncan, my post may have been a little dismissive, sorry.

I can see your arguements but I think you are dismissing footy fans like myself who would go to international games.
But to be honest just not in the centre of Belfast.

I'm a tax payer and I have no problem with the location of the Maze, and as i've said this stadium is about more that the 14,000 who attend your international games.

There's no doubt it's a POLITCAL stunt but you are still getting it free no matter how you spin it. By 'you' I mean the IFA.

So if you guys don't want it 30 mins from Belfast, we'll take it 30 mins from Derry..........out in Eglinton maybe near the City of Derry Airport

[Duncan Gardner]

Dassa and Duncan, my post may have been a little dismissive, sorry

No problem.

I can see your arguements but I think you are dismissing footy fans like myself who would go to international games. But to be honest just not in the centre of Belfast

I'm not dismissing you. I'm saying you are very much in the minority (of fans likely to attend NI games).

I'm a tax payer and I have no problem with the location of the Maze

Even though the location, which is likely to directly result in reduced crowds, means a reduced return on the £85 million cost?

and as i've said this stadium is about more that the 14,000 who attend your international games

Of course, but they/we aren't excluding anyone else's point of view. We're merely opposing what we see as a bad decision, explaining that the lack of our support makes the stadium less feasible in its own terms. And that's before we consider the other sports' lukewarm interest in it to date.


There's no doubt it's a POLITCAL stunt but you are still getting it free no matter how you spin it. By 'you' I mean the IFA

The spin is yours- it still costs a lot more than rebuilding Windsor, or a new stadium in the city centre. And there are obvious other costs to the IFA (who are unrepresentative of our support at the moment) if fewer of us turn up to the matches.

So if you guys don't want it 30 mins from Belfast, we'll take it 30 mins from Derry..........out in Eglinton maybe near the City of Derry Airport

Very droll. Personally I'd prefer it in Derry City Centre than at the Maze. That eight-lane motorway through Glenshane and the TGV link from Dublin, Armagh and Omagh make the Maiden City so accessible nowadays

[Krstic]

[
I'm not dismissing you. I'm saying you are very much in the minority (of fans likely to attend NI games).

But that's a very narrow minded assumption to make.

Believe it or not, there are people out there who don't currently attend Northern Ireland matches, but would if they felt more 'At Home'.

I'm not trying to say that changing the location of the ground is going to bring all the Northern Based Republic of Ireland fans over to support the North, because we all know it will not happen.
But you could get fans who haven't yet discovered football or an interest in international football.

My Uncles went to the World Cup in Spain in 1982 and got to 2 games, supporting Northern Ireland. Neither have been in Windsor Park since the early 80's.
Pre- the real bad troubles Northern games could easily attract 25-40,000 depending on the opposition, with the crowd being made up of both sides of the community.

It could happen again, maybe not tomorrow but sometime, therefore the maze stadium has to be looked upon as a viable long term option.

[Krstic]

Well and good, but to me this is a tacit acceptance of the ghettoisation of not only N.Irish football but also the wider society. Thats not where we are going, thats where we have been.

You're spot on Bohsfan, we in Northern Ireland (as you well know) are extremely Ghettoised, but so is Northern Ireland's football team.
It get's it support from one side of the community.
If you read my last sentence it is looking forward not back.

A new start, wherever it maybe, 'COULD' help Northern Ireland Ireland football move forward in a way that would attract people like myself, not only attend matches in order to see the oppostion but eventually re-finding a passion to actually support the home side.

I'm not saying this will happen over night but it could happen in the long run.
Then you could have 30,000 plus supporters vying for 14,000 tickets at windsor.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that stuff

[Duncan Gardner]

But that's a very narrow minded assumption to make

No, it's a reasonable conclusion based on the available evidence. A specific poll of attending NI fans was overwhelmingly opposed to the Maze. A (necessarily vaguer) poll of NI residents generally was more welcoming, but without demonstrating actual commitment to turn up to games. There simply isn't evidence of a vastly greater potential fan base out there- which is why I say the likely increase in crowds at Ormeau would be modest.

Believe it or not, there are people out there who don't currently attend Northern Ireland matches, but would if they felt more 'At Home'

I believe it, I just don't think it's statistically significant. Such fans would be exchanging a stadium in a unionist area with good nearby facilities, for one in a unionist area with no nearby facilities. For which reason the existing fans would largely have abandoned it.

I'm not trying to say that changing the location of the ground is going to bring all the Northern Based Republic of Ireland fans over to support the North, because we all know it will not happen

Indeed.

But you could get fans who haven't yet discovered football or an interest in international football

Fair point. Also, although the IFA's Football for All guys are too diplomatic to say outright, their aim is largely to get middle-class unionists to come (back). Nationalist fans are assumed to support the Republic, though we will still try to attract them, and make them welcome when they come.

My Uncles went to the World Cup in Spain in 1982 and got to 2 games, supporting Northern Ireland. Neither have been in Windsor Park since the early 80's

Noted. The sectarian atmosphere at games in the 70s and 80s- I was a regular- was widely acknowledged to be much worse than now.

Pre- the real bad troubles Northern games could easily attract 25-40,000 depending on the opposition, with the crowd being made up of both sides of the community. It could happen again, maybe not tomorrow but sometime, therefore the maze stadium has to be looked upon as a viable long term option

This is a non-sequitur. It's an unviable short-term option, so it probably won't happen. You've already admitted above that it won't happen!

Well and good, but to me this is a tacit acceptance of the ghettoisation of not only N.Irish football but also the wider society. Thats not where we are going, thats where we have been

Surely he's suggesting that it might become less of a ghetto, ie RoI fans will be relaxed about watching NI? That would be very welcome, though clearly I disagree the numbers are as significant as Krstic suggests.

A new start, wherever it maybe, 'COULD' help Northern Ireland Ireland football move forward in a way that would attract people like myself

See you at Ormeau Park then!

[Krstic]

[B]Well and good, but to me this is a tacit acceptance of the ghettoisation of not only N.Irish football but also the wider society. Thats not where we are going, thats where we have been

Surely he's suggesting that it might become less of a ghetto, ie RoI fans will be relaxed about watching NI? That would be very welcome, though clearly I disagree the numbers are as significant as Krstic suggests.

That's exactly what I was saying Duncan, but Bohsfan has a habbit of saying what ever he likes in order to make us Derry fans all look like the Spawn of all that is evil.

[Krstic]

[B]I believe it, I just don't think it's statistically significant. Such fans would be exchanging a stadium in a unionist area with good nearby facilities, for one in a unionist area with no nearby facilities. For which reason the existing fans would largely have abandoned it.

See you at Ormeau Park then!

Ah you're bending the facts Duncan, there's a big difference in a perceived 'Unionist area' than a perceived 'Loyalist Area'.

I'm not against Ormeau park, but nobody's giving you a stadium there.
You're being given one at the Maze.

[Duncan Gardner]

Ah you're bending the facts Duncan, there's a big difference in a perceived 'Unionist area' than a perceived 'Loyalist Area'

I'm bending no facts. The Maze site is/ will be obviously different from Windsor Park in the inner city, but both will be equally unionist. And from your point of view- that existing fans will continue to turn up- obviously they'll represent the spectrum of unionist opinion. (BTW, I avoid the term 'loyalism' because it's both vague and self-contradicting)


I'm not against Ormeau park, but nobody's giving you a stadium there.
You're being given one at the Maze

There are plans for both. Neither is fully developed nor costed, but only one needs taxpayers' money.

[Krstic]

I think Duncan is closer to my meaning to be honest. However you point of view, while it has validity, is not one I would favour.

In any other society this issue would be viewed in strictly sporting terms and what I am proposing is that it should also be viewed in those terms here.


Moving to a field in the middle of nowhere just because it comes free of any history is, in my view, actually backward looking, defeatist, and not in the least progressive.

But Bohsfan, Northern Ireland as you well know is very different to other countrys.
A sizeable proportion of this country refuse to recognise it's very right to exist. (Whether they're right or wrong is irrelevant to this debate)
So making a case against the Maze by referring to other nations is meaningless.

As for the Maze site being free of any history Are you for real

[Krstic]

In relation to the first sentence my agreement, or otherwise, with the statement is irrelevant. If I agree with it then I will logically conclude that from the point of view of stadium location that no site can be found to satisfy the demands of the people to whom you refer and by extension that pretty much completely wipes any rational/criteria which states that their approval matters. In otherwords if these people refuse to acknowledge the right of the State of N. Ireland to exist then they are not the ones to be consulting about the location of a stadium for the national team of N. Ireland.

If, on the other hand, I disagree with the statement, I might not be right, at this very moment, but it is far more empowering a belief to carry and more constructive too.



Of course it has history, I meant' that term in another way than you have decided to understand it.

Ah c'mon Bohsfan you're being very naughty with that post.

I simply mean that you cannot compare Northern Ireland to other countries because we are not the same.

We have a divided society, unlike England, Scotland, Wales or the Republic Of Ireland where the issue of the stadium would indeed be down to locating a new stadium in logistically the best place, this fcuked up place doesn't have that simplicity.

Again I am not opposed to the alternatives, although i am opposed to Windsor for several reasons.
But I am in favour of the Maze site and WILL attend games there if they ever happen.

[Duncan Gardner]

The point is that any team representing NE Ulster is always going to be contentitous, especially with the native nationalists. You can't just ignore hundreds of years of history involving illegal occupation

Like I said, Gonzo, quit stirring. The siting of this stadium has little directly to do with the partition of Ireland, the famine, Cromwell, Strongbow or any other historical events you want to refer. But, since you insist, the reason there are two football associations in Ireland is because the FAI split. The contention follows largely from that. Otherwise, football could have been like the other sports.

At this rate there'll be a Jewish settlers team wanting to joining UEFA next!

Heh. But we can't have that. They might finish ahead of the Republic in a quali group...

But whilst there's a team representing only 50% or so of the population, most people won't take it that seriously

The rather more than 50% (check nationalist votes in the last elections) take it seriously enough. Plenty of others take it more seriously when it does well. Although presumably you're not equating serious perception and performance in matches. If you were, how then to explain why teams like Wales (no qualification in 15 tournaments), or RoI (one from the last six), have such a huge support home and away?

One last point is given its 'triple' role;Has anyone asked people in the GAA & rugby communities where they want a stadium? Their input is just as valid. Especially given they are actually capable of generating 42000 spectators!

Indeed their input is just as valid, they're just a little less forthright in expressing it. The thing is, we know where the GAA and IRFU want to play big matches. Dublin and, er, Dublin. That applies to provincial finals and internationals against smaller rugby countries. Ravenhill, Casement and Clones will do for more local games.

There's no need for the Maze. Let's face it, you know it's a farce.

[Dassa]

I dont really care how we arrived at having NI as it is today. its here, its my country like ROI is most of yours and when they put a team on the pitch in any sport Il support them. i have no interest in teams that represent either Ireland ie Rugby or Great Britian ie olympics. NI is my country and snide remarks will just enforce my opinion more.

Im sure people in ROI do not appreciate it when people try and airbrush their existance out by saying their british so I hope you would have the same respect for those who want to be Northern Irish and promote it.

and as for this native nationalist tripe wise up. My name is more Irish than most so grow up.

[Krstic]

I think we've gone a wee bit too far off the topic lads