QuoteExactly, each party invloved will own a percentage of the stadium & will receive the revenue from each event staged there based on their percentage. The FAI will get a cut of revenue from rugby games & vice versa.Originally Posted by Schumi
Not true. AFAIR the FAI will own a third of the company (along with the IRFU and the government) that owns and runs the stadium. They won't be renting it off the IRFU like now.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
Exactly, each party invloved will own a percentage of the stadium & will receive the revenue from each event staged there based on their percentage. The FAI will get a cut of revenue from rugby games & vice versa.
Good so - I stand corrected.
Sounds like a good deal by the FAI. I'm assuming they're not having to put any money in, and it's just part of the overall bribe to get them to sign-up ?
Enjoyable knockabout stuff above, but this isn't really a unionist-nationalist, Belfast-Derry, or City-Country argument.
It's about whether a field in the country with less than ideal transport links is suitable for a sports stadium, let alone an obvious white elephant. 42,000 seats is absurd. NI and Ulster rugby's crowds will never consistently get anywhere near that, GAA will continue to play big matches at county grounds, Clones or Croke.
The plan to spend £85 million of taxpayers' money on the Maze when private developers propose to build a smaller stadium at Ormeau (2km from Belfast city centre) is a bit odd, eh?*
The representative amalgamation of NI Supporters Clubs has submitted a detailed, costed reply to the Maze proposal (pm me for copy). It has also carried out a specific survey of fans showing 85-90% opposition to the Maze (depending on size of any new build).
* I take the point about Ormeau Park inevitably losing some amenity, although the actual planned site for the stadium is actually more 'brownfield' -it's a leisure centre at present.
But you can't have it both ways by also claiming there's a lack of car parking at Ormeau. Well aye, because it's a park in the inner city! Fans may have to walk a few minutes from nearby car parks.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
I've just had a look through that ANISC document, and admittedly it makes a good case against the Maze and in-favour of a Belfast site.
However - I can't help but see a beautiful irony in the fact that Belfast is being denied a facility it feels it deserves, purely for political reasons. Welcome to how the city of Derry has been treated consistently since 1922. What comes around, goes around.
At least Belfast has got motorways, Universities, a rail network, Police schools, jobs etc etc to make-up for any lack of a stadium...
I was told Derry's economy is doing very well, well at least that's what the locals told me when I visited the Maiden City.
Anyway, that's off-topic.
The new stadium doesn't need 42000 seats, but bigger than the current one is a must. Every game (except for the one vs Azerbaijan) was sold-out long before and touts had the time of their life with their tickets getting sold for up to 400 GBP vs EnglandAt least 20000 capacity is required.
Ulster Rugby has plans to leave Ravenhill then?I don't really follow rugby, so may be a lit behind on that one...
But I think One H-Block should be left standing as a permanent reminder/memorial to all prisoners who served time there from all sides of the political divide
Without lapsing too far into party politics, the Government's plan is that the stadium and 'museum' would both be integral parts of the site.
A new greenfield site would be the only hope (if any) of a ground welcomed by both communities
You're discounting the possible sites in central Belfast at Maysfield and Ormeau (1 km and 2 km from the City Hall). Although the latter is in a park, both are closer to 'brownfield' as one is currently a leisure centre, the other used to be.
I thought there was good support for a Greenfield site but maybe no agreement on where that would be?
Amongst the likely users, there's massive opposition to the Maze plan, largely on grounds of location but also as it's too large. A weighted poll of NI opinion as a whole is more welcoming, essentially agreeing with the line quoted here, 'it's free so why are you quibbling it'? But such opinion is less important because only a small proportion of it would ever use the stadium, whereas all of the other poll already watches football at Windsor. Note of course that it isn't 'free' in the wider sense: you could provide a lot of hospital beds with £ 85 million, or even with the margin left over after government support to a smaller stadium's costs.
The Ormeau Park suggestion is a complete nonsense. I lived at the edge of Ormeau Park for 5 years and there just is not the space to build a stadium with sufficient parking etc. Also why destroy one of the nicest areas of park in Central Belfast to build a stadium? As Jimmy Boyce said, the Maze option is the "only game in town"
The stadium would replace the leisure centre. Car parking would be elsewhere but close. The parkland has already been converted- did you grumble then, I wonder? Boyce is talking nonsense. There are two proposed sites in the city centre- and a plan to develop a smaller stadium beside Glentoran Airport. Not that we need that for u-21 matches as proposed, Ballymena and Lurgan are fine, but it does show how incoherent Boyce is.
The Maze site is easily accessible from all parts of Northern Ireland - it is right beside the M1
And not so far from the Belfast-Dublin railway. Except there are no costed plans for a dedicated station and a motorway junction and slip road. Both of which you might expect if there are really no alternatives...
It seems to be mainly Belfast people who are complaining about the location of the stadium
Wrong. The proportion of the supporters' poll opposing the Maze (>80%) is clearly greater than the population of NI living in Belfast ( about 30% even if we include Lisburn and the rest of the suburban sprawl).
for god sake please let them have the sense to make the right decision on this one. It is hard not to make the right one too
We- NI fans and the rest of the users- will decide that, thanks. You may see it rather less simplistically after reading our report.
And what feckin relevance does it have to a national stadium anyway ??
Oh, none. Except that they (Brandywell, Oval and others like Shamrock or Solitude) have one thing in common. All are football grounds widely if unfairly perceived as unwelcoming by the other community. I'll accept that the national stadium is expected to set a higher standard of welcomingness, but to distinguish rigidly between it and the others is a bit silly.
14,000? Windsor Park holds 20,000+ i thought, is Windsor not full on match day? Anyway, the fact that it is not Windsor might mean there will be more crowds there, nad the fact that it will be modern etc. Also the fact that ye are beating sides like England for fun might mean a few new faces too yeah !?!
Windsor must be all-seated for international matches, thus the lower figure. The higher figure is notional. Many Irish League Prem sides would be pleased with an AGGREGATE of 20,000 for the season. Survey of fans suggests crowds would fall at the Maze. Statistically we are 6/1 against drawing England in the next competition. Project that over seven tournaments, and assuming they remain consistently better than us, we'll play them every 14 years. You don't plan a stadium on that basis. No other European countries bar the Republic and very possibly Scotland would see significantly increased crowds, and even then one-off. We have played France, Germany and Spain at home in recent years, remember.
ROI fans would be ecstatic if they got a stadium out of the FAI on the moon ! And as for building stadiums miles outside of cities in a field with no amenities - well everyone seems to love the Stade de France...
Anecdotal I know, but a significant proportion of your London-based fans moaned when they had to trek all the way to Charlton Athletic* to watch that 2004 tournament, rather than QPR* as preferred. (* Seven as opposed to three miles from central London). The Stade may be popular with visitors, less so with fans of French football. Which presumably is a main reason why Paris SG stay at Parc des Princes.
Since when were Wembley or Murrayfield in city centres ?
You aren't comparing like with like. The problem isn't that the Maze is in Lisburn town centre- it's that it's miles away, in a field with no nearby amenities.
However - I can't help but see a beautiful irony in the fact that Belfast is being denied a facility it feels it deserves, purely for political reasons.
Not a 'fact' actually, but your clearly loaded opinion. The opposition to the Maze plan is both
a) overwhelming within that part of the community with a real stake in it, ie fans attending matches
b) extended well beyond Belfast local authorities, lobbies and fans actually living there.
Both of which, you at least acknowledge, are well argued in the report.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
This needs explaining Duncan. The percentage of NI fans opposing would only work in the way you've said if the sample statistcially reflected the dispersal of population around the province.
Motorcycleman just mentioned the Brandywell because of his blinkers, tbh. Hence why I chose to remind him that there are other equally polarising grounds elsewhere in the province on both sides of the 'divide'. And as you said yourself anyway - a national stadium is expected to set a higher standard of welcomingness. At least we're all agreed, therefore, that Windsor doesn't work.
I've been to the Stade de France more times than any other international stadium - incl Lansdowne. I was at the first ever sports match played there, and have been to watch Ireland and Wales play rugby there on quite a few occassions, as well as the ROI play soccer. On a number of those occassions I have gone with French friends living in Paris. On none of those occassions have I encountered any negative feedback regarding the stadium from the French themselves, so I'm not sure what you're basing your assertion that its unpopular with the French upon ?
PSG stayed at PDeP for a host of reasons. Including inertia and the fact that they don't need a stadium any bigger.
As for the Charlton v QPR arguement regarding the Unity Cup. Firstly - that was an event that completely failed to catch the imagination of ANYONE in London. Hence why no-one attended really anyway. Secondly - I've been to both the Valley and Loftus Rd on a number of occassions each, and can assure you that - as with most things in London - the distance isn't anywhere near as important as the ability to get to there. Charlton is a ballax to get to. It's not on the tube network, is nowhere near areas with traditionally high Irish populations, and to be honest is not a particular nice area - often particularly so for those who aren't 'English', if you catch my drift. Shepherd's Bush, meanwhile, is well served by tubes, near a number of areas that have traditionally had large Irish populations (e.g. Shep Bush itself, Kilburn, Cricklewood etc), and is by a country mile a nicer and more welcoming part of town. Your anecdote is therefore deeply flawed.
I accept your points, and admit fully that I'm pursuiing a loaded opinion here. But when your city has been shat on for decades for narrow sectarian political purposes, you can't help but raise a rye smile at the possibility of the offender in chief (i.e. Belfast) finding itself at the wrong end of a decision being made on the grounds of politics rather than arguably common sense or need. I doubt you'd find much sympathy for the Belfast stadium cause in Derry - regardless of the merits of the case. Like I said - what goes around comes around.....
This needs explaining Duncan. The percentage of NI fans opposing would only work in the way you've said if the sample statistcially reflected the dispersal of population around the province
Broadly, I think it does if you assume dispersal of population likely to support Northern Ireland's football team, as opposed to another team or none. Obviously fans attending NI games tend to be unionist, and unionists tend to live east of the Bann, but the huge discrepancy between the 80% and 30% figures I quoted makes clear that a large part of the opposition to the Maze comes from outside greater Belfast.
At least we're all agreed, therefore, that Windsor doesn't work
Again broadly yes*, although you'll understand why I want to keep it as a future option. I think the Maze stadium plan will be abandoned because of lack of support from the three sports involved. And while the Belfast plans, particularly at Ormeau Park, are impressive, there's the likelihood they may run into planning, financial or other difficulties. We'll still need somewhere to play games...
* I don't want to get into a spat about how intimidating Windsor is, was, or might be. However, I referred it in plenty of other threads here in the past
I'm not sure what you're basing your assertion that its unpopular with the French upon
Anecdotal evidence (ie, hearing and reading French fans say they don't like it- too big, too remote etc.), which I should have made clear as for the SE7/ W12 comparison below. I note you merely quote slightly more anecdotal evidence in return.
'London W12 v SE7'
Charlton Athletic is 300m from a train station served at least every 15 minutes from central London, and only 2 km from the tube network at the Dome, if you can't wait that long. The boroughs of Greenwich and neighbouring Lewisham have long-established Irish communities. Both are also ethnically diverse, if you were hinting otherwise.
[W12] is by a country mile a nicer and more welcoming part of town
So this isn't anything other than a very subjective rant, is it?
you can't help but raise a wry smile at the possibility of the offender in chief (i.e. Belfast) finding itself at the wrong end of a decision being made on the grounds of politics rather than arguably common sense or need. I doubt you'd find much sympathy for the Belfast stadium cause in Derry - regardless of the merits of the case
Aye, I see the mild irony. But since you personally agree the supporters' response is well-argued, why wouldn't others in Derry? Even if the large majority of fans there don't support NI and don't care where they play, as taxpayers they presumably have an opinion on what looks like the unnecessary spending of £ 85 million, eh?
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
Duncan - this is a highly suspect assumptino to make. No statistician would touch it with a barge pole.
North Greenwich tube station is 2 MILES from The Valley - not 2km. That's a 60% difference. On top of that, it involves crossing an incredibly busy 6-lane major A-road, and a walk up a bit of a hill. It's therefore not the casual Sunday mornign stroll you seem to be suggesting. As for the train station - across the period that the 2 Ireland games were on at the Valley, the train service wasn't operating and they had replacement bus services instead to the tube at North Greenwich. Which suggests that even London Transport thought the walk was a bit unreasonable. All-in-all, getting to and from the
Valley for those games was an absolute fiasco - it took literally hours.
[W12] is by a country mile a nicer and more welcoming part of town
So this isn't anything other than a very subjective rant, is it? [/QUOTE]
Subjective opinion - yes. But a "rant" - really ???? A statement claiming that Kensington is nicer than Brixton would also therefore qualify as a "sujective rant" ? You live in London Duncan - go to a game down at The Valley yourself and go for a drink or two in the bars in the surrounding area. Then do likewise at Loftus Rd and let me know what you think.
Is it any coincidence that Celtic have played a number of friendlies in West and North London in recent years (mostly Fulham, but also QPR and Spurs), but none in South-East London (home of Milwall and Charlton). And for the record - CAFC's hooligan element (B'Mob) identify much more strongly with Loyalism than QPR's do (ironically, the C'Mob). It is not unusual to see Loyalist flags/banners at Charlton home games. I have never heard of any at QPR.
you can't help but raise a wry smile at the possibility of the offender in chief (i.e. Belfast) finding itself at the wrong end of a decision being made on the grounds of politics rather than arguably common sense or need. I doubt you'd find much sympathy for the Belfast stadium cause in Derry - regardless of the merits of the case
Aye, I see the mild irony. But since you personally agree the supporters' response is well-argued, why wouldn't others in Derry? Even if the large majority of fans there don't support NI and don't care where they play, as taxpayers they presumably have an opinion on what looks like the unnecessary spending of £ 85 million, eh?[/QUOTE]
Duncan - this is a highly suspect assumption to make. No statistician would touch it with a barge pole.
North Greenwich tube station is 2 MILES from The Valley - not 2km. That's a 60% difference. On top of that, it involves crossing an incredibly busy 6-lane major A-road, and a walk up a bit of a hill. It's therefore not the casual Sunday morning stroll you seem to be suggesting. As for the train station - across the period that the 2 Ireland games were on at the Valley, the train service wasn't operating and they had replacement bus services instead to the tube at North Greenwich. Which suggests that even London Transport thought the walk was a bit unreasonable. All-in-all, getting to and from the
Valley for those games was an absolute fiasco - it took literally hours. Using the Unity Cup games at The Valley in support of a point regarding fans willingness to travel to a game just doesn't work.
Subjective opinion - yes. But a "rant" - really ????
Is it any coincidence that the pre-season friendlies that Celtic have begun playing in London every year have been solely in West and North London (mostly Fulham, but also QPR and Spurs), but none in South-East London (home of Milwall and Charlton). Perhaps it is. But for the record - CAFC's hooligan element (B'Mob) identify very strongly with Loyalism. It is not unusual to see Loyalist flags/banners at Charlton home games. I have never heard of similar amongst QPR's element (the C'mob), and I have 2 QPR season ticket-holding mates who I play footie with every week..
When you've been paying tax for nigh-on a century without your home town seeing any significant benefit from it, you tend to lose any interest in where your tax dollars allegedly get spent. The people of Derry checked-out of caring when we lost the University in the 60's. The very recent decision to award the significant number of Civil Service e-HR jobs to a bid based in Belfast, rather than Accenture's bid that would've been based in Derry, makes it even less likely you'd get any sympathy in the North-West at the moment- regardless of whether it meant a couple of pence in individual's annual tax-grab being wasted.
a highly suspect assumption to make. No statistician would touch it with a barge pole
Why not? It seems pretty straightforward to me. Variously,
- crowds for internationals at Windsor vary from 7,000- 13,000
- the number who go to at least one match per year will obviously be higher. I don't know how precisely this has been researched, but let's say somewhere between 30,000- 50,000
- the poll sampled, already at a game, at more than 2,000, was large enough to be representative of the higher figure
- its conclusions were overwhelming. No to the Maze
- Northern Ireland supporters are based in and travel from all over the country, and many beyond
- thus there is no basis to the claim that opposition is primarily Belfast-based
- the MORI poll showing a majority in favour doesn't directly contradict because, however well weighted viz a viz Belfast/ the country, women/men, old/young, green/orange or whatever, it clearly didn't distinguish between peole with a genuine stake in where matches are played, and the rest.
Steve, I've answered your points about various drinking venues in inner London by PM, as they're largely irrelevant to this thread, probably of little interest to most readers, and in any case were covered at the time.
I've also resisted the temptation to get into a wider party political argument. Elswhere, maybe. Next time we met for a pint at Birkbeck?
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
Unlike Messrs Steve and Bloomfield, I suspect the "mood across the whole of greater Ulster and beyond" is quite likely to turn against the Long Kesh superdrome when they realise what a waste of their taxes it is. But even more starkly, the stadium's backers need to attract a rather more specific audience, ie football, rugby and GAA fans likely to attend matches. If they aren't interested, then the stadium won't be feasible in its own terms even if more general public opinion surveys support it.
NI fans in the rest of the six counties, and beyond are broadly happy with the infrastructure available in Belfast city centre (where there are two separate proposals for city centre stadia). They might conceivably be happy with similar in Lisburn or Ballymena centres, though no-one's suggesting any sites there, eh?
Since you're such an expert on the London Irish press, Bloomfield, no doubt you'll be able to offer some evidence- its circulation in differing areas of the city, say? I look forward to reading it.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
You may know
Not significantly more than you, since much of it is self-evident. It's a big city, with a wide variety of access routes and entertainment facilities other than the (eventual) ground itself.
but if they can build it, albeit very painfully slowly, in the rest of Ireland, they can construct the links
The point is that they haven't yet planned the links, despite the decision supposedly already taken. Which does rather create the suspicion that they won't be built at all. Even if they are, belatedly, that means a possibly extended delay with even less incentive for fans to travel to the Maze.
to take this ground to a 'neutral' area
The Maze isn't a neutral area in the way you assume. At the moment it's a field, but presumably you expect it to have restaurants, bars, bowling alley, cinema etc. I doubt any of those will ever be built, but if they are they'll be staffed and used by locals from the nearby town, who are likely to be predominantly unionist. In the last general election, nationalists made up 14% of the local electorate (Lagan Valley, 2005).
As for 'Laandaan'
There are long established Irish communities in the south London boroughs of Greenwich (where I live), Lewisham, Southwark, Lambeth and Wandsworth. My newsagent sells the Irish Indo and other weekend and weekly papers from Ireland. As per a previous thread here, Chelsea have long drawn their support mainly from south London, much of it is Irish. Let's see some evidence, please, of the Irish Post's sales (which are not that high anyway- less than 30,000 for a community of 690,000 and wider diaspora of 2,400,000). Broken down across the country. Anecdotal guesswork won't do.
www.irishpost.co.uk/Mediapack.pdf
Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 11/02/2006 at 11:56 AM.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
Lads I've loved this debate, it's been civilised and way beyond my capabilities.
But I think you're all forgetting that this stadium is not just for the fans of Norn Ireland's footy team, it's for 2 other sports, one of which could fill the proposed stadium with ease.
It could also be utilised for other money making schemes such as concerts and festivals, way out in the country with no residents to annoy.
And at the end of the day it's only about a half hour journey from Belfast.
I can say with all honesty that I would attend Norn Ireland matches at this new venue if only to see the opposition but as has been pointed out I would still be going to Dublin in order to support the Republic.
But I think you're all forgetting that this stadium is not just for the fans of Norn Ireland's footy team, it's for 2 other sports, one of which could fill the proposed stadium with ease
Indeed, although
a) neither of the other sports have shown much enthusiasm for the Maze plan
b) GAA are likely to continue to want to play such big matches either in Clones (with the attraction, inter alia, of not having to pay British VAT on gate receipts), or at Croke, the obvious venue for any Ulster final likely to attract 42,000+
c) Rugby Union have only been talking about a small country international friendly every second year. Which won't attract anywhere near 42,000
It could also be utilised for other money making schemes such as concerts and festivals, way out in the country with no residents to annoy
It won't be- there's no known demand for them, or for a 'Mazetonbury'. Existing facilities in Belfast are fine.
And at the end of the day it's only about a half hour journey from Belfast
For reasons already discussed, it would likely to take twice that to queue out of the car park via the one access road.
[breathes deeply]
Most 'real' Irish people would consider those areas either overly English(or associated with other Ethnic groups! ). You are clearly Unfamiliar with the Diaspora!
You clearly have no idea of the national/ ethnic background of south London, nor have you explained your source for what most 'real' (explain?) Irish people think. But go on, here's your chance. Statistical evidence please, not rambling abuse.
Strikes me as 'anecdotal guesswork' by your goodself!
Indeed, but differing from yours in two small yet significant ways. First, I live in south London, thus I'm likely to know whether or not it has Irish communities, and where. Second, I did actually quote/ link you to the Irish Post's ABC sales, plus their claimed wider community (which is extracted from the 2001 census, I think). If their sales aren't broken down for different areas of London in their own advertising, I doubt you are making much more than a wild guess. Quite likely based on some bizarre personal bias against 'unreal' Irish people and south Londoners...
Presuming you are capable of reading
No need to be abusive
suggest you look at 'The Irish Times' stockists list published in their 'International' edition! Will happily get hold of The I.P.'s circulation figures & post to you.....though don't know if publicly accessible?
I'm quite happy to read them when/ if supplied by you. As above, if they aren't accessible how can you be such an authority on them?
As for the mutant chavs.of SW3*......Yes with barely no exception,their traditional support has been reflected in being often fascist, generally 'brain-dead' & thus by definition largely anti-Irish!
Incoherent nonsense. Their traditional support comes from the working people of south inner London, who have long been strongly Irish. Only a small minority of whom are fascist or brain dead. Not that either of those terms mean inherently anti-Irish, since Ireland and its diaspora has its own minorities in both categories.
They were the only club in London handing out fascist pro-UVF/NF literature as recently as the mid/late-90's. Very 'pro-Irish'
They weren't- I've seen it at Spurs, West Ham and Millwall during that period.
Maybe If you had a Dublin government;Then the links would now be planned?!
You haven't, you won't in the foreseeable future and your analogy is a bit odd. Belfast had urban motorway links long before Dublin.
central Belfast(Much of which is stigmatised as being associated to 'one side or other'), so a neutral field seems as good as anywhere
Except it isn't neutral. Its staff and users of the ancilliary facilities I mentioned are likely to be predominantly unionist. As I said above.
Surely the 'majority' of the 'North of Ireland' fanbase would prefer the staff to come from their own community anyway!
The question doesn't arise. Fans don't want to go the Maze because it's isolated with poor current and likely future infrastructure.
Plus I doubt a large majority of the self same people would take kindly to members of the indigeneous population turning up for G.A.A.fixtures in the centre of a large urban area, where they were unwelcome!
What are you on about? If the GAA wanted to use a new stadium at the favoured site in Belfast, there would be no problem per se in their fans turning up (and avoiding flashpoint unionist areas in approach to the stadium). As you must know, inner city Belfast has a large nationalist population.
What's the dig from the indigenous population? Excluding unionists from it is dumb, as I've said often on this board. Their ancestors have been there for centuries- just like the nationalist population of Belfast, after their own forebears migrated from other areas of Ireland. Or possibly Deutschland, in Herr Blomfeld's case.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
Mate you can call our team Northern Ireland it is a proper title and this crap about indigenous populations is immature and nonsense so wise up.
Bloomfield/ Gonzo: the only one(s) not recognising the indigenous population is/ are you. Now give it a rest before yer multiple aliases get banned for the umpteenth time...Hang On!You, DG & a minority of outdated people who neither recognise The Indigeneous Population are campaigning for a 'country'That don't even Exist!', FFS want everyone to build a stadia exactly to yer specifications?! Yeah right,................on that basis , Hampden is too
The 'specifications' asked for by a clear majority of NI fans are actually quite broad- that the stadium be within walking distance of Belfast city centre, and of a realistic size ie between 20- 30,000 seats.
These specifications are both reasonable and achievable.
Hampden Park is largely irrelevant to this debate. Although many Scots- and outsiders, including me- thought it a white elephant when rebuilt. Largely because neither Rangers nor Celtic would accept Scotland's 'big' games being staged by the other. That factor doesn't apply in the same way in the Belfast/ Maze debate, as shown by the oddity of some nationalists insisting on a site in a very unionist area, while the largely unionist fanbase counter with a preferred site next to nationalist areas in the inner city.
Here's a letter from David Carson, professor of marketing at Ulster University. Not published by the Belfast Telegraph, but openly copied to the Amalgam of NISCs:
Judging by the flurry of media articles, airtime and correspondence in relation to the concept of a National Stadium and its siting, this is indeed an issue of great concern to many. In contradiction of our Minister it is clear that the matter is not closed. Agreement or enforcement of a sub-optimal decision may have political expediency but it makes no business sense.
So what are the differing positions? One body of opinion is firmly for a stadium complex at the Maze, which has land and space aplenty, but little else. Another opinion argues for somewhere in Belfast and now specifically one lobby is for the Maysfield area whilst another is for Ormeau Park. A further argument is that since Government claim that the Maze is the only option, then everybody should agree to this, better this than none at all.
In some ways Government have no choice but to argue for the Maze as the only option. I gather that Government commissioned a feasibility study to justify the Maze site. So having got a result, based on their own brief, in favour of this site, it is difficult for them to admit that other sites might have equal or better feasibility. The Government’s argument appears to be founded upon cost and availability of land, however if Belfast City Council was to provide land for a stadium the fundamental argument for the Maze would seem to be negated.
Where is the best site? It is difficult amongst all this to see that Government is taking cognisance of the wider issues of maximising the social and economic impact upon the widest possible community. If this fundamental requirement is given due weight then there is only one location for our stadium, that is in close proximity to the major concentration of population, commerce, transport and hospitality provision; namely within the existing infrastructure of the largest city. That is Belfast. Why so?
- Firstly, Belfast has an established and improving transport infrastructure, both public and private. More importantly, it offers the widest choice and variety for additional retail spend. Thus, multiple restaurants, cafes, bars and retail shops as well as alternative entertainments through cinema and theatre. As such a stadium event attracting tens of thousands of spectators will multiply economic activity in all of the above, thereby maximising the social and economic impact for all.
- Secondly, an aspect that is most disappointing about Government thinking, is lack of consideration of the impact upon tourism. Large events attract tourists, not only for the event but to bring family, stay awhile and enjoy the amenities of the local surroundings. Since expansion of tourism is a major platform of Government strategy it is extremely remiss of Government not to consider the location of a National Stadium as a tourist development and a local social amenity, thereby maximising further the social and economic impact.
Best practice throughout the world demonstrates over and over again the logic expressed here. Melbourne has “state-of-the art” facilities all within walking distance of the city centre. Similarly, Cardiff, San-Francisco, Paris, Porto and not least Dublin with Croke Park and the soon to be rebuilt Lansdowne Road.
The common link between all of these examples is that none are located in isolation from a major infrastructure of transport, commerce, leisure, entertainment, hospitality and accommodation. Because of their location they maximise the social and economic impact for the good of the widest community.
They're red, they're black
The hatchetmen are back.
We'll support you evermore
Though you never score...
How am I outdated, I was born on the Island of Ireland in Co Armagh like generations of my family before me. i was born into a country recognised as NI so how does it not exist.This is pure narrow mindedness on your behalf.
All these arguements mean nothing when put up against the Governments' main Criteria: All 3 major sporting bodies must be willing to use it.
The sporting body who require it the least, will in no way be willing to use any stadium in the proposed Belfast locations. The GAA simply do not require this stadium, however are not silly enough to turn down a free stadium.
I'm sure the Rugby people could take it or leave it, yet they too are not so stupid as to refuse a freebie.
That leaves the IFA, the organisation who most require a stadium.
Again this organisation is not going to turn down a gift like this, but behaving like spoilt children because all the specifications are not to your liking is getting a bit boring.
The quoting of Polls carried out by different people are also overshadowed by the best poll of all, up until Northern Ireland's recent Wales and England Games, it was quite easy to get a tickets for your International games.
The demand wasn't great for going to watch a Game in 'Belfast City', so why would the demand increase now?
If you want to stay in Belfast you might as well stay at Windsor and re-develop it.
Other wise take the freebie and enjoy it, attempt to expand your audience and get qualifying for a few tournaments.
If not, Build your own stadium or fix up Linfield's and keep on playing to
10-15,000 people.
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