Love Ulster March

[Speranza]

The launch of this organisation occured at Larne harbour where a publicity newspaper was the first act of LU in what must be an attempt to twin this group and their goals with that of the U.V.F who used Larne harbour to bring in weapons in 1912.

But senior loyalist paramilitaries were also at Larne Harbour in County Antrim where the cargo of free newspapers was brought in by boat in a symbolic recreation of a weapons delivery to the old Ulster Volunteer Force on the Clyde Valley ship in 1914.

How can they criticise republican paramilitaries for their terror when they are basically celebrating the actions of the UVF and organisation without any clear goal or ideology other than the murder of Catholics.

A man who I rarely agree with hits the nail of the head...

said: "It is utterly disgraceful at a time when loyalist paramilitaries are killing each other and terrorising the nationalist community that the Orange Order should have come together with them on a campaign against a united Ireland.

"The Orange Order claims again and again to be against terrorism yet they don`t hesitate to associate with murderous paramilitaries when and where it suits them. This is rank hypocrisy and thoroughly shameful.

"It is also deeply irresponsible at a time when extremists are trying to ratchet up tension in the community that leaflets are being delivered claiming that Ulster is at crisis point.

"This type of inflammatory and alarmist action plays right into the hands of extremists and adds fuel to the sectarian fire."

http://www.utv.co.uk/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=64353

[Lionel Ritchie]

Hmm...

When Orangemen march in their own country, they have to have their marches re-routed. They aren't allowed to march down Nationalist areas, or if they do, it needs to be heavily policed, and every year there are disturbances.

Why are Orangemen coming to march here?? Do they want to offer an olive branch to their neighbours?? Do they want to build bridges with us?? No, they want to come to our capital to protest about their negative image here, apparantly. They'll come to the GPO, wave their British flag, spew anti-Irish rhetoric, and they expect us to take it, do they?? They wouldn't stand for it on the Garvaghy Road, so what makes you think Dubliners will take it??
.

Mypost -you're wrong -plain and simple.

The bits of your post I've highlighted are the bits where you go furthest in comparing an apple with an orange. (no pun intended).

Northern nationalists found themselves on the wrong side of a line that probably shouldn't have been drawn in the first place. As they've been asked to accept living under a jurisdiction that is not of their choosing for the forseeable future -then I think it's fairly reasonable that their sensetivities should be taken into account.

The same cannot be said for Southern nationalists -who broadly got the administrative arrangments they wanted -notwithstanding grieviances and concerns about a chunk of Irish territory being sheared off.

What I want to know is why our government is giving this the green light, knowing how sensitive this issue is to Irish people, while being fully aware of the potential consequences? Why is this happening in O'Connell Street? Why will Dublin City Centre be sealed off on the day of the march to law-abiding Irish residents? Why will businesses have to close on the day to protect their property from the high risk of damage, because of this march going ahead? Why will they be forced to lose millions of Euro as a result of the Irish Government's ill-advised decisions??

That's what I want to know.

Reads to me like you're threatening to kick something off here Mypost. If not -then it's just sensationalist nonsense.

Why do you think they make such a big deal about insisting on walking the bits of the "Queen's highway" that go through Catholic areas? Because it'd be no fun just marching around their own areas where there are no croppies to be intimdated.
The Orange Order is a supremacist institution - I use the word deliberately, just to highlight the parallels with US white supremacists. They have a long history of violent opposition to the very democratic rights that people here are quoting. One man one vote? Go ask Gerry Mander the answer to that one. Freedom of association? Catholics are expressly excluded from membership.........

The barely-acknowledged Orange marches in Donegal are meaningless and twee because the whole essential element of lording it over the Fenians is taken away when the Orangemen are in a minority. But this proposed march is not just a similar "cultural" stroll around Dublin. If it's let go ahead, it gives them more ammunition for demanding to be let march down Garvaghy Road, the Springfield Road, etc on the basis that if the good nationalist folk of Dublin can take it so why can't the good nationalist folk of those areas?

More of it.

Tell me -are the (Roman Catholic) Knights of Collumbanus or Opus Dei supremacist, undemocratic etc because you have to be RC to join? How about the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland? The Orange marches in Donegal, Monaghan, Wicklow (???), Sligo/Leitrim (???) and Cavan make the national press and main news on TV every year. These people -probably Unionist in their outlook to varying degree -are citizens of the Republic of Ireland, break no law and are entitled to do as they wish without having their culture called 'meaningless'.

Keep going though ...Unionisms warming to the state ye'd have them living in.

[Macy]

I think the march should go ahead and there should be no protest, no clapping, no nothing. Treat it like the other members of the lunatic fringe that hang around outside the GPO. Give it no recognition either positive or negative, just make it a non event.

To protest will just make us look bad to the rest of the world and to the more moderate unionists in the north and give this group a field day. Unfortunately I can't see anything other than the sinners being true to form and falling right into the trap.

Incidentally, whilst I can see why they would find it hard, I've long felt that nationalist communities should follow a take the píss approach to marches, rather than the riot. Clown outfits complete with sash to start with. I think they'd soon stop wanting to go down contentious routes if they were made a laughing stock infront of the whole world. Easy to say I suppose from down here, I can see why the initial reaction would be to brick the dicks.

[Dr.Nightdub]

Lionel, one major and critical difference between the Orange Order and the Knights of Columbanus / Opus Dei - the latter are not attempting to march through areas where they're expressly not wanted because of what they represent.

Personally, I dislike intensely ALL religiously motivated ideologies. If it's any proof of even-handedness on my part, the last couple of times Youth Defence had big demos along O'Connell St (not long after the "X Case"), I went on the counter-demos to them. By all means, let people express their religious feelings if they want - but let it be between consenting adults in private.

As regards Orange marches in Donegal, I explained why, in my mind, etc they lose the meaning normally associated with such parades in the North. Once taken out of a context of Orange supremacism, they become little more than the Flat Earth Society having a wee walkabout, harmless and not worth getting worked up over.

[Thunderblaster]

As far as I'm aware, the only orange march within the republic is the one in Rossnowlagh in Donegal. Watching Questions and Answers tonight, Sinn Fein, through Caoimhin O'Caoilain, welcomed the Love Ulster march in Dublin which is a major shift in their policy towards the orange order; then again O'Connell Street and the Garvaghy Road is absolutely no comparism.

[dcfcsteve]

Sinn Fein, through Caoimhin O'Caoilain, welcomed the Love Ulster march in Dublin which is a major shift in their policy towards the orange order;

That'll be that rally cancelled first thing tomorrow morning then.....

[mypost]

Mypost -you're wrong -plain and simple.

Don't bother, I'm not really interested, tbh. If I'm wrong, fair enough.

......

Reads to me like you're threatening to kick something off here Mypost. If not -then it's just sensationalist nonsense.

I'm not threatening, or sensationalising anything. I am highlighting genuine safety concerns that I have about this march, not to mention how it will affect the civil liberties of those in Dublin who want to be able to go about their business on the day, without fear of getting caught up in a hostile march-riot.

It's alright for you though, as it doesn't affect those in Limerick on the day. It won't be your property that gets damaged, your businesses won't have to close, and youse won't lose any sleep over whether marchers/protestors run amok or not 150 odd miles away. Dubliners will have to.

[Lionel Ritchie]

It's alright for you though, as it doesn't affect those in Limerick on the day. It won't be your property that gets damaged, your businesses won't have to close, and youse won't lose any sleep over whether marchers/protestors run amok or not 150 odd miles away. Dubliners will have to.

Mypost we've Loyalist bands in our St. Patricks day parades down here in Limerick. What's the big deal? No -ones civil liberties were impeded, they did their march, played their tunes (this crowd won 1st place in their category I believe), had a good time and went home. I don't even think the usual letters page warriors bother getting offended any more.

http://www.kvfb.co.uk/LIMERICK/cutti...letter%201.gif

[REVIP]

Mypost we've Loyalist bands in our St. Patricks day parades down here in Limerick. What's the big deal? No -ones civil liberties were impeded, they did their march, played their tunes (this crowd won 1st place in their category I believe), had a good time and went home. I don't even think the usual letters page warriors bother getting offended any more.

http://www.kvfb.co.uk/LIMERICK/cutti...letter%201.gif

I did a radio programme about twelve or thirteen years ago for Downtown Radio in the North about a season with a marching band.

I went out a couple of times with a tape recorder with the local accordion band from Ballykilbeg near Downpatrick. They were a respectable lot, strongly unionist, but people who lived very harmoniously with their neighbours.

I realised at that time that there were substantial differences between urban and rural cultures. The Orange bands, those from places like Ballykilbeg and the Kilcluney band that went to Limerick, would be very different from the Loyalist 'Kick the Pope' flute bands from places like north Belfast.

The Love Ulster campaign seems to me to be very urban - it's supported by the Shankill Mirror, and the following it attracts would be very different from bands like those that go to Rossnowlagh.

I think that what Love Ulster are proposing is not an Orange march, but a Loyalist one, and I think that there is a substantial difference between them.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Good Post REVIP.

I see what you're saying with the LoveUlster crowd coming from a predominantly urban (north and east Belfast) background but the kingpin appears to be that William Frazer bloke from Markethill Co. Armagh who, without wanting to be patronising, comes across as a deeply damaged individual. I think he lost several relatives at the hands of republican paramilitaries during the bad old days. He doesn't strike me as a particularly reasonable fellow -nor does he strike me as a man ready for change.

I think he'd probably like if there was trouble in Dublin -for reasons some have mentioned here already. He was involved in that 'long march' thing a couple of years back too where again they were attempting to paint themselves as a supressed culture. Not enough people paid attention and it petered out.

[Cosmo]

Incidentally, whilst I can see why they would find it hard, I've long felt that nationalist communities should follow a take the píss approach to marches, rather than the riot. Clown outfits complete with sash to start with.

That would be hilarious alright, whose up for it?

[jebus]

Well I'm going up there because I need to get protest photos for my college course so I'm secretly delighted this is going on from that stand point. Personally I don't think they should be allowed to march through Dublin for the simple reason that it contradicts everything it says on LoveUlster.com,

"LoveUlster is a campaign for Unionist unity.
LoveUlster calls for the democratic rights of the Unionist community to be recognised and respected by government.
LoveUlster calls for an end to government concessions to Irish nationalism/republicanism
LoveUlster gives people a voice and encourages them to have their say.
LoveUlster is a peaceful and democratic initiative by a range of organisations across the Province, including the Shankill Mirror, victims support groups and the Orange Institution"

Thats it agenda, and considering the Unionist standpoint of it when they talk about government they are talking about Tony Blair and not Bertie Ahern, so should they not be marching through London to protest to their government. What point coming to a foreign country (in their view) and protesting to us? Sure we have some influence in what happens in the North, but a lot less than New Labour does, so why not go to them? The Dublin march will achieve nothing for their agenda above and so is pointless. The real reason if you go onto the LoveUlster message board is to elicit a negative response from us 'stupid paddys' as we're called on it. They would absolutely love for the barstool republicans to smash a few of their heads in with stones so they can go to the newspapers and say that the bigoted Irish attacked a peaceful demonstration. I'm going to be there on the 25th alright to get my photos but I wouldn't be surprised if I started chucking a few stones myself, and if you ask anyone who knows me then they'll tell you that I generally couldn't give a toss if the North broke off from Ireland and floated off into the sunset, but marching past the GPO and down O'Connell St. is taking the **** to say the least

[Noelys Guitar]

This is just a rabble rousing escapade by some very nasty, deranged types. With a further influx from the "mainland" (who exactly are they? BNP?) according to their own site. Should they be allowed to march. Yes. We are a democratic society and they should be allowed to march. I would go along with taking the **** big time but this could become very nasty. Hope not.

[Speranza]

if you ask anyone who knows me then they'll tell you that I generally couldn't give a toss if the North broke off from Ireland and floated off into the sunset, but marching past the GPO and down O'Connell St. is taking the **** to say the least

Rank hypocrisy. You view the GPO as hallowed ground obviously due to the struggle for freedom that occured there but then couldn't care less about the same search for freedom continuing in the six counties which make up Northern Ireland.

[dcfcsteve]

On the basis that "anybody should be allowed to march in a democratic society" would a German organisation get permission to march throught he middle of London on a Saturday or any day, wearing SS uniforms and waving Nazi flags.

You know full-well marksman that that is an extreme example, and not comparable. The Nazis were directly responsible for the attempted genocide of an entire race/religion. Public display of their symbols, uniforms etc is expressly outlawed in a number of European countries. Regardless of your own feelings on the organisation, neither of these is true for the Orange Order.

This is not an exageration of the type of feelings that this parade will stir up. I have discussed this with a friend of mine as his grandfather fought in 1916 and his grandmother died in British "custody". His grandfather is sickened to his stomach that this parade will go ahead on what is hallowed ground to Republicans, and indeed to the Irish state.

There are many in the North who see Stormont, Belfast City Hall, Drumcree Church etc as "hallowed ground" to them. Should they then have sole choice over what does and doezsn't happen on their supposed 'hallowed ground' ? The logical extension of what you're saying says they should.

Who gave permission for this parade to go ahead, and is there actually a state or local law that allows foreign "organisations" to march through Irish streets, or is this another appeasement to Unionists.

So Northern Ireland is "foreign" ???

Remembering of course that the last time members of the Orange Order came to Dublin on a weekend, it was to plant bombs in Talbot Street and Sackville Place, followed by one of the most appalling acts of Unionist appeasement by our government in covering up this atrocity and refusing to hand over evidence to the Justice for The Forgotten members. Consider this when you are talking about "democratic rights"

Firstly - those events were 30 years ago. The British could say the same about the annual Bloody Sunday commemoration march in London, or Easter rallies in otehr parts of England/Scotland, referring back to IRA atrocities in London and elsewhere as recently as 10 years earlier. So again - the logical extension of what you're saying is that there should be no Republican marches allowed anywhere in Britain/the UK either. Should Gerry Adams etc also be turned away from Downing Street - given their organisation attempted to blow it up barely a decade ago ?

Secondly - so the Talbot/Sackville bombings were the work of the Orange Order ??

[REVIP]

DCFCSteve can't win. I saw him described as an anti-Protestant Republican in one thread - now he is pro-British and a brother to the Unionists.

The only people who have ever treated Northern Ireland as a foreign country are the hardline Unionists. There is a consistency in the Sinn Fein line of welcoming the marchers because they regard Dublin as the capital for the whole island.

Until someone identifies the Dublin and Monaghan murderers, no-one knows if they are members of the Orange Order.

For the record, Ian Paisley has never been a member of the Orange Order. He wears an Apprentice Boys collarette on 12th July and attends the demonstration of the Independent Orange Order, which was founded a century ago because the main Orderw as not regarded as being religious enough.

I think the Love Ulster movement is an excercise in coat trailing and would rather that they and their neo-Nazi friends stayed in north Belfast, but heavy policing of their pathetic little march will only give them propaganda.

[Anto McC]

Thats pathetic but it's exactly the stuff they will expect us to rise to,the best thing to do(as hard as i am finding it )is completey ignore it and them scumbags and when they realise there is no trouble here,they'll go away

[Poor Student]

I thought it was supposed to be a peace and reconciliation thing?

[Thunderblaster]

[Thunderblaster, don't quote entire posts.]

And Westlife should record the song!!

[dcfcsteve]

Mary McAleese and Alex Reid referred to Unionist treatment of Catholic as akin to the Nazi treatment of the Jews, they would not do so unless this is what they felt deep down.

You mean those comments that they've apologised profusely for making, and were widely condemned for by people on all sides...?

Now don't make some ridicluous satement to the order of "well they didn't put them in gas ovens" If you don't know what they did do please read some history books. If the Jewish comparison is too much for you then how about "like whites treated blacks in the Southern US states up to 40 or 50 years ago, denying their civil rights assaulting and indeed MURDERING protestors (NICRA, which according to Unionists was a cover for the IRA!) .

The American or South African examples of racial apartheid would indeed be closer to an accurate comparison. The comparison with the Nazis is frankly absurd.

I did not suggest that The Orange Order bombed Dublin, but that some of the perpetrators were members of the Orange Order (this in indisputable fact...sorry.), applying the Unioinist rhetoric (Nortern Bank raid etc.) Ian Paisley planted the bombs!

So then - care to tell us all who the bombers were ? You obviously know something that the forces of law and order in the Republic don't. Or are you just assuming here ? Give me their names and I'll run a check on them to confirm if they are currently listed as Orange oredr members. Information available for only £20 a head. The joys of some 'fringe' internet information sites....

Regardless - as you're willing to employ what you decsribe the 'Unionist rhetoric' - did the Pope bomb Birmingham and Guildford...? As those actions were carried out by Catholics.

In case you haven't noticed NI is a foreign country, so what is the ridiculous for? Or, like your Unionist brothers, you want it both ways? Irish when it suits you, British when it doesn't. It's not that hard to understand my point, NI is recognised as an independent state and as such "foreign" so I ask the question "do foreign organisations have rights to march through Ireland" ? Shouldn't really have to expalin this simple concept.

Firstly Northern Ireland is not "recognised as an independent state" It is politically an integral part of a separate state - i.e. the UK. However - given that all individuals born in Northern Ireland are automatically entitled to Irish citizenship, and that Bunreacht na'hEireann has for the overwhelming majority of its history had an expressed claim over the territory of Northern Ireland (removed recently only as part of the Good Friday Agreement - not through a change of heart) you know as well as I do that you're clutching at straws here. Also - as the Orange Order has branches and members within the terriory of the Republic of Ireland, how can it be a foreign organisation ? Is the Co-operative movement in Ireland also a 'foreign organisation' - given that Cooperatives were first established in Rochdale ? Let's not forget that the GAA was founded in a British Ireland, just like the Orange Order. Does that make CLG a British organisation...?

Your "point" re. Stormont is again a leap of logic and irrational:

"There are many in the North who see Stormont, Belfast City Hall, Drumcree Church etc as "hallowed ground" to them. Should they then have sole choice over what does and doezsn't happen on their supposed 'hallowed ground' ? The logical extension of what you're saying says they should.!

The "they" you refer to are a part of the whole of NI and no, they cannot (today) determine who marches where without reference to the other parts. Again, I can't beieve, I have make this distinction as it is a ridiculous analogy.

My analogy makes complete sense. I was drawing a comparison between one community claiming that another community shouldn't be allowed to do something in Northern Ireland on the basis of that event happening on "hallowed ground" (whatever the feck that is anyway ?). You gave the same example in reverse. We've already established that The Orange Order has a presence and a standing in the Republic of Ireland as well as the North.

AGAIN: London is part of the UK, Bloody Sunday occured in Derry, another part of the UK..AGAIN your analogy is invalid, the commoration of Bloody Sunday is organised by British citizens in Britain.

Well you've obviously never been to a Bloody Sunday commemoration event in London then ! I've gone along to two to check them out, and would say that judging by the accents of the speakers and those around me that the majority would easily be Irish citizens - from both north and south (holding an Irish passport makes you an Irish citizen, befgore you try to make an idiot out of yourself with your obsessioon regarding Northern Ireland's 'foreigness')[/QUOTE]

I have no time for Love Ulster or this rally. Would rather it didn't happen, but if it does I want it to pass off peacefully. But I also have no time for your hysterical over-the-top comparisons - such as between the OO and the Nazis.