Love Ulster March

**Dodge** · 28/02/2006, 10:58 AM

And read jebus posts, it wasn't purely Dublin folk there.

bTW Pete the link to the photo carrying story is on this thread. Organiser said "he couldn't guarentee" it wouldn't be there. Obvious politik speak for "damn right it would be there."

**dcfcsteve** · 28/02/2006, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

No, its just less valid than those who live here.

So let me get this straight. The validity of someone's views, and the strength of the arguement they present to support those views, is based NOT upon the quality of the opinions they present, the evidence they provide to support them, and thereby the overall strength of their arguement - but has more to do with where they are geographically located at the particular time that they make that arguement ??

So the arguements of an uninformed idiot based in Dublin giving a factless rant has more validity than my own arguements will ever have - no matter how strongly I present my arguement, and no matter how incontravertible the facts are upon which it is based - purely because I happen to be based in London for this stage of my life ? You might want to take a minute to read through this again.

I am Irish born and bred. Like millions of fellow Irish people have done for centuries, I left Ireland at the age of 19 - and since then have lived in various places throughout the world. Throughout my years of 'exile', however - I have kept myself incredibly well-informed and up-to-date on Irish affairs. My personal book collection would put the 'Irish History and Current Affairs' section of any Easons book shop to shame. I read a number of Irish newspapers (Derry Journal, Derry News, Irish Indo, Irish Times) each and every single week. I receive ALL Irish TV channels in London, and watch them daily. Most of my core group of friends in London are primarily from Ireland - north and south. All but one member of my family still lives in Ireland, and I also make very regular vists back to the country as well (5 times in the last 5 months, for example - visiting Derry, Donegal, Dublin, Belfast and Cork). Yet despite all of this, my opinions on Ireland are invalidated by the fact that I currently live in London. They're much less valid than any ill-informed Irish-based idiot who never picks up a paper, watches nothing other than Celebrity Love Island on TV3, rarely leaves his home town, and who just hangs around with other ill-informed buffons talking sh!te rather than discussing the issues of the day. Or to put it even more starkly - you're asserting that the validity of a recent Polish immigrant's views on Ireland are more powerful than mine, simply because he's in Dublin at the time that he makes them. Just because somneone has an Irish address - that instantly imparts monumental wisdom upon them regarding all things Ireland. And just because I currently have an English address - that means that I can say nothing of any value on the country at all.

I'm sorry Dodge - but there is no other conclusion to draw from your comments other than the fact that you are an idiot.

I would confidently take on 99.9% of the population of Ireland in a discussion/debate on ANY issue regarding Ireland - ANY - as I am that confident that my level of information and my understanding of the issues would out-weigh theirs. Yet that doesn't matter - as I'm currently residing outside our nation's hallowed borders.

The validity of someone's arguement and viewpoint in a debate, Dodge, is based upon the following - in order of priority :

1) Their level of knowledge on the matter.
2) Their degree of understanding of the issue concerned.
3) The facts they present to support what they are saying.
4) The clarity and power with which they present their entire arguement.
5) Their direct experience of the matter in hand.

Where you happen to be residing at the point at which they make their viewpoint/arguement does not alter these key ingredients - and therefiore does NOT in any way alter the validity of their arguement. Were you not so thoroughly rejectionist of views contrary to your own, you may have realised this before now......

Originally Posted by Dodge

Similarly your views on the North and in particular Derry are more valid than mine

But not because I'm from there. Because I have a greater knowledge and understanding of the issues affecting Northern Ireland and Derry than you do. Full stop. Meanwhile, I would never claim to have more valid opinions on certain Irish issues than people like, for example, Bertie Ahern - even though he lives in Dublin - or leading Irish academic Marianne Elliott - even though she's been based in liverpool for very many years. Hell - I've no doubt there are people out there who's knowledge and understanding of the Northern Irish situation beats mine hands down - yet they just happen to be English. That doesn't make their viewpoint or arguements any less valid than mine.....

Originally Posted by Dodge

"the right to free speech is less important than keeping the peace IMO"

So if I burn your house down because what you've written in this thread has annoyed/offended me, then the correct thing for the Gardai to do would be to ban you from posting on here in future - least it cause any further disturbance of the peace......?

**klein4** · 28/02/2006, 11:54 AM

Its like Platos story of the cave(look it up in Easons

). All your information is second hand. Ireland has changed a lot in the last few years. You cant beat first hand knowledge of a situation. People who were in Dublin and saw what went on have more right to comment than British people living in London pontificating on something they saw on the telly.

**liam88** · 28/02/2006, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by klein4

All your information is second hand. Ireland has changed a lot in the last few years. You cant beat first hand knowledge of a situation. People who were in Dublin and saw what went on have more right to comment than British people living in London pontificating on something they saw on the telly.

The riot in Dublin was nothing compared to what that comment is about to cause

**Dodge** · 28/02/2006, 12:09 PM

So the arguements of an uninformed idiot based in Dublin giving a factless rant has more validity than my own arguements will ever have - no matter how strongly I present my arguement, and no matter how incontravertible the facts are upon which it is based - purely because I happen to be based in London for this stage of my life ? You might want to take a minute to read through this again.

As you sometimes do Steve, you missed the point entirely. Of course someone's knowledge counts but do you honestly think you know more about the feelings of Dublin people to this March (and in realtion to the Dublin bombings) than I or others who have posted. You don't. You may not have heard/read about in the media because the media by and large ignored Saturdays march, it was however "common knowledge" that RSF were rallying their idiot supporters (and all assimilated thugs) and that the potential for trouble was huge.

my opinions on Ireland are invalidated by the fact that I currently live in London.

Firstly you mentioned Ireland. I talked about Dublin. The dublin of today. And yes I'm fairly sure that there are polish people living here who are more in tune with the dublin of today than most Irish living abroad, and yes their opinion is more valid as they are the people dealing with it on a day to day basis.

I'm sorry Dodge - but there is no other conclusion to draw from your comments other than the fact that you are an idiot.

That may well be the case but I fail to see how you reach that conclusion from my posts on this subject

The validity of someone's arguement and viewpoint in a debate, Dodge, is based upon the following - in order of priority

Again you are making massive assumptions. In no way did I state my "criteria" for comment, however locality is a huge one.

That doesn't make their viewpoint or arguements any less valid than mine.....

We are not talking about history here, we're talking about a city as it works and lives. There was no literature predicting what would happen on Saturday but it was obvious

So if I burn your house down because what you've written in this thread has annoyed/offended me, then the correct thing for the Gardai to do would be to ban you from posting on here in future - least it cause any further disturbance of the peace......?

That’s a hugely illogical leap you've made there and there's no way my post even hinted at that possible outcome.

Look, you obviously taken offence to my last post. I stand by everything I said. If you want to answer me again, PM me. I'm fairly sure people here are bored with us. (and as mod I can't let it get off topic)

**dcfcsteve** · 28/02/2006, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by klein4

Its like Platos story of the cave(look it up in Easons

). All your information is second hand. Ireland has changed a lot in the last few years. You cant beat first hand knowledge of a situation. People who were in Dublin and saw what went on have more right to comment than British people living in London pontificating on something they saw on the telly.

OK. So tell me the comments etc I have made on this thread that are now 'out of date' or 'second hand' ?

The core story of what happened on Saturday is incontravertible - regardless of whether I was there to see it with my own eyes, or through the eyes of a TV lens like the vast majority of the people of Dublin and the rest of Ireland saw it.

And interesting to see you take Dodge's thought fascism and narrow it even further. So now only those people who were there on the day to directly and personally witness everything that went on can have a valid opinion on it ??? Shut up An Taoiseach - your view is irrelevant on all of this, as you just went there......

Why don't you just come out and say what you really mean - that NO-ONE other than you is allowed to have a valid opinion or arguement on this issue...

And as an aside - exactly how much knowledge and experience of anti-orange/loyalist protests do you have, given your oh-so-strong position on this particular issue.....?

**jebus** · 28/02/2006, 12:11 PM

Can't remember who said what to me after my post but here goes my responses;

I won't be giving any of my pics to the Gardai for the simple reason that I'm a coward and am afraid that if any of them were used and my name was found I'd be in a spot of bother, also I've never been one to tell tales.

To the arguments of freedom of speech I'll say this. I'm not against freedom of speech at all, but I do believe it has its limits. My points about Al-Queda, the Nazis and general white supremecy groups still stands in my opinion. All of those groups have wronged and murdered citizens of New York, Amsterdam and Harlem (not to mention many more places), so why should they be allowed to glorify their mis-deeds by marching past the people they have wronged? Surely this is a reasonable argument, that only the unreasonable Extreme Left Wing brigade would have a problem with? So why should a group such as the UVF, who only recently enough murdered innocent Irish people, be allowed to flaunt this in our faces? The answer of, because of freedom of speech is, in my opinion, a completely bull****, washing your hands of the worlds problems answer.

**Dodge** · 28/02/2006, 12:15 PM

Spot on jebus.

**klein4** · 28/02/2006, 12:18 PM

"given your oh-so-strong position on this particular issue"

I wasnt aware I expressed an oh so strong opinion on this issue so you may get off that high horse of yours.

"Why don't you just come out and say what you really mean - that NO-ONE other than you is allowed to have a valid opinion or arguement on this issue..."

If you want an example of "thought fascism" (as you so well put it in the style of Rick from the Young Ones).....look no further than above.

**jebus** · 28/02/2006, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by anto1208

well they are different countries so we cant really use that as reference point

Why's that? Read my post above on why I feel its a justified reference point, although I still can't see how we can't use human history as a reference point.

Originally Posted by anto1208

also isnt the nazi party banned and there for its against the law for them to come together in any capacity , Al-Queda support groups meet and march all the time through new york , london etc etc same with the white suppremacy groups ,so i dont see your point .they are alloud because the US and england have freedom of speech we dont . we have freedom of speach as long as you only say what we want you to say .

And you're living in which world? America and Britain have freedom of speech? Have you not looked at the conservative world we live in? All media in America especially is censored, jesus they even kicked Dan Rather off CBS News for validly questioning George Bush Jnr.'s military record. Absoultely ridiculous point, and what little respect I had for your opinion on this just flew straight out the window.

Also could you please show me pics and news reports on the Al-Queda support groups' marches through New York? Complete with banners saying we support Bin Laden/Al-Queda/9-11, because frankly you're making up **** there. And its true that white supremecists march, but always through pre-dominantly white areas, and guess what they also hold miny to major demonstrations that often fall into violence as well!?!? Hard to believe that no other country has ever had a riot but its true!! And if you believe that a ban on Nazi parties coming together stops them from doing so.....well I don't know how to state it any further that I think you haven't a clue what you're talking about

Originally Posted by anto1208

i get an impression from your story ( i hope im wrong ) that you seem to condone the voilence the line in paticular that caught my attention was "After the Loyalists had left why keep tearing the city apart and attacking even more IRISH people?" like it was ok to do while they were there .

I don't condone the violence at all, but the reason why the Republicans were there and decided to form blockades out of whatever they could get their hands on was to stop the UVF, oh sorry Love Ulster, from marching down O'Connell St. What I was questioning was why this group that claims to love Ireland would continue to attack Irish people and destroy the Irish capital even after their objective had been achieved. It was just a way of me highlighting what sort of non-Nationalist thugs actually were involved in this riot, a point which went straight over your head it seems, I don't know I thought it was straight forward enough.
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**Dodge** · 28/02/2006, 12:35 PM

Right lads, all of you. Stop getting so personal with the posts (and yeah I'm included too)

**Dotsy** · 28/02/2006, 1:04 PM

I've lived in Dublin for the best part of 40 years. I remember the Dublin & Monaghan bombings vividly (the sister of my primary school teacher at the time was killed in Dublin). The march on Saturday didn't offend me or any of my friends and relatives living here that I have talked to. The general consensus among those I discussed it with is that there were victims on both sides and that the march served no purpose, but they had a right to March.

People also had the right to ignore it or protest peacefully if they felt inclined to. With the exception of a small group of barstool republicans and couple of hundred ****ed up knackers who took the opportunity to have a go at the guards and do a spot of looting that's what the vast majority of Dubs did. I think that is pretty obvious to anyone who has read the papers or watched the news over the last few days.

If there were huge numbers of Dubs that were offended at this march where were they on Saturday. They certainly were not in O' Connell Street.

**Poor Student** · 28/02/2006, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by jebus on the rioter's thinking

I don't condone the violence at all, but the reason why the Republicans were there and decided to form blockades out of whatever they could get their hands on was to stop the UVF, oh sorry Love Ulster, from marching down O'Connell St.

I think this sort of thinking is a huge problem. I don't mean to quote young Liam as a good example as he's a good fella but he said something earlier along the lines of "Thank God they didn't reach the GPO". This kind of territorialism is still etched into the Irish mindset. We laugh at Paisley talking about not giving an inch but some people are not prepared literally to give Unionists an inch either. People may feel quite passionately about such things and I do not mean to offend them but this kind of thinking will see no progress on this island. Now perhaps that's what people want, if so then just come out and say it like Paisley, if not then cop on and see how your actions match up to what you profess and claim to desire.

**jebus** · 28/02/2006, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Poor Student

I think this sort of thinking is a huge problem. I don't mean to quote young Liam as a good example as he's a good fella but he said something earlier along the lines of "Thank God they didn't reach the GPO". This kind of territorialism is still etched into the Irish mindset. We laugh at Paisley talking about not giving an inch but some people are not prepared literally to give Unionists an inch either. People may feel quite passionately about such things and I do not mean to offend them but this kind of thinking will see no progress on this island. Now perhaps that's what people want, if so then just come out and say it like Paisley, if not then cop on and see how your actions match up to what you profess and claim to desire.

I'm sorry but if you're going to cut up a paragraph of mine to use as a negative point would you mind leaving the rest of what I said in there, otherwise it comes across as something I believe in, when I was using it to talk about the Repblican rioters train of thought

**Poor Student** · 28/02/2006, 1:50 PM

Sorry Jebus, trying to be economical with the new rule.

**pete** · 28/02/2006, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by jebus

I'm not against freedom of speech at all, but I do believe it has its limits. My points about Al-Queda, the Nazis and general white supremecy groups still stands in my opinion.

Are you for real? Do you read what you typing? Do you not see the contradiction there? If the UVF were portesting down O'Connell st the gardai would not have allowed it. name one thing the unionists did that was illegal on saturday? Do you support the right of the IRA to have marches glorifying their comrades deaths? Did they not kill people?

**Dodge** · 28/02/2006, 2:02 PM

its obvious he doesn't. But Love Ulster is pseudonym for UVF/UDA and anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a bubble (and the garda did allow it)

**jebus** · 28/02/2006, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Are you for real? Do you read what you typing? Do you not see the contradiction there? If the UVF were portesting down O'Connell st the gardai would not have allowed it. name one thing the unionists did that was illegal on saturday? Do you support the right of the IRA to have marches glorifying their comrades deaths? Did they not kill people?

Once again one of ye are assuming things, in that I support the IRA. Simple fact if any of you cared to ask before you do your little

thing is that I don't, I also think they are murdering scumbags, and I wouldn't agree with them marching either. Does that clear it up?

And the Unionists didn't do anything illegal last saturday true, but thats hardly relevent, unless they had actually formed last saturday. Sad truth is that they've been around for a while and have caused various crimes in their time. have you forgotten that or do you just judge terrorist groups* on what they have done in the past week or so?

*and if you're going to pretend that Love Ulster is anything other than a glorified UVF support group then don't bother replying to this thanks very much