Man United and Arsenal

[joeSoap]

Wenger is the most successful manager in the history of the club and is given alot of grace in this regard.


I haven't lost faith in him yet.

Admirable, and I agree with you, but yesterdays newspapers are old news, and even you must admit that last night for example he packed the midfield, and played for a draw in a must win game for the club. Surely that deserves tobe criticised.

[Stuttgart88]

Well said Karlos.

I think Arsenal's current run of form just highlights how remarkable their "invincible" season was. Even then the team had major flaws. As pointed out above, Toure is not a natural central defender & Lauren is not a natural right back. Lehmann is a decent 'keeper but certainly no more than that. They have never employed a traditional forward pairing and they almost never scored from set-pieces. Disipline up until recently was appalling.

Wenger is far from above criticism, but his record speaks for itself, no question.

I think Cygan is one of several "dud" signings he has made. He may be a good honest pro and that's fine but it frustrates me that Wenger feels the need to crowd out "local" talent with players of such mediocrity. And just about any "local" he has invested in has been a dud (Jeffers, Wright) that I could have told him about! How he can continue to ignore Shay Given is beyond me.

My only "permanent" criticism of Wenger is that I just feel its hard to relate to a club where almost all of its first XI are foreign and pretty much all of its second XI is too. I can't believe that so few British or Irish players have been good enough even despite their inflated prices.

I'm extremely grateful to Wenger for the extraordinary success he has brought to the club I've followed since the 3 Dublin lads were there, and the 3 from the North. I'm also grateful to him for ridding Arsenal of the boring tag that they had for so long. I greatly admire his emphasis on entertainment. The more I watch Chelsea the more it annoys me that Mourinho had the nerve to call Celtic "anti-football" in 2003.

So what if Arsenal will never be as big as MUFC, as Sir Alex pointed out this week? But they are a great club, the very essence of a what a club should be about. They are very much the focal point of the local community which is one thing that really strikes me every time I go to Highbury. I hope the same "feeling" remains when they move across the road.

[Karlos]

Admirable, and I agree with you, but yesterdays newspapers are old news, and even you must admit that last night for example he packed the midfield, and played for a draw in a must win game for the club. Surely that deserves tobe criticised.

If i'm being really honest, we went for it at home last year and got stuffed 4-2 by the Mancs. Nobody associated with Arsenal wanted to see a repeat of that and the damage a heavy defeat would have done to this Arsenal team would have been catasrophic and so I understand (not necessarily agree) why he went that way. We changed in the cup final and poxed a win but more importantly didn't conceed a goal and we didn't conceed again last night - 4 clean sheets in a row will help the confidence of that team and goals will come at the other end.

I'm not so sure the game was a must win last night though as with 18 games to go and only 3 points off the champions league spot, there is plently of time - we gained points on everyone around us bar United. I'm not sure evryone else will gain points against United.

The reality is that the league is long gone and ultimately that will probably be a point gained and another step on the road to defensive solidity.

[NeilMcD]

I do hope spurs go for it against Man Utd at home though. Spurs outplayed Man Utd at Old Trafford and I would not be happy if Jol played 5 across midfield against Man Utd and White Hart Lane.

[Karlos]

I think Cygan is one of several "dud" signings he has made. He may be a good honest pro and that's fine but it frustrates me that Wenger feels the need to crowd out "local" talent with players of such mediocrity. And just about any "local" he has invested in has been a dud (Jeffers, Wright) that I could have told him about! How he can continue to ignore Shay Given is beyond me. .

My only "permanent" criticism of Wenger is that I just feel its hard to relate to a club where almost all of its first XI are foreign and pretty much all of its second XI is too. I can't believe that so few British or Irish players have been good enough even despite their inflated prices.

Cygan fustrates the hell out of me at times too but I'd almost clasify him in the Gilles Grimandi and Remi Garde catagory i.e. their role being as squad member who is willing to come in at a drop of a hat and do their best. I think they don't upset the dressing room harmony and are adequate in an emergency. Wenger has always surronded himself with this type of player - I wouldn't be suprised if he's a big influence on squad morale a la Garde and Grimandi.

The UK player situation is a difficult one to argue with but there was some situations that didn't help. Matthew Upson for example was offered a contract extension but couldn't see himself forcing past Campbell, Adams & Keown at the time. Had he waited a year he would have got an England cap while playing for Arsenal. Wright & Jeffers didn't work out. Wright was badly affected by the last minute clanger away at Spurs and never recovered. Jeffers wasn't good enough, bags of potential but couldn't do it at a big club. Jermain Pennant is another who was good enough but messed it up for himself and was rightly shipped out - how many chances does a boy need. Bently got too big for his boots after scoring a goal Vs Boro and cribbed about it for months after - a similar scenario with Barrett. Stack I don't think was good enough but was very young and Keepers mature later so there's still hope there

Ultimately Wenger takes nationailty out of the question. If they are good enough and prepared to bide their time they will make it - Ashley Cole being the most prominent example.

So what if Arsenal will never be as big as MUFC, as Sir Alex pointed out this week? .

Bigger than Spurs is all that matters down N5!

But they are a great club, the very essence of a what a club should be about. They are very much the focal point of the local community which is one thing that really strikes me every time I go to Highbury. I hope the same "feeling" remains when they move across the road.

With the stadium literally around the corner i'm sure that feeling will remain. No doubt there will be a year or two of prawn sandwich followers due to the novelty of a hi-tech stadium but that will hopefully weed itself out. It will be a sad day when Highbury finally goes though. A great traditional stadium, with it's listed building stands and marble halls.

[Karlos]

I do hope spurs go for it against Man Utd at home though. Spurs outplayed Man Utd at Old Trafford and I would not be happy if Jol played 5 across midfield against Man Utd and White Hart Lane.

I think Spurs are a team playing with confidence Neil and I must say from my experiences of Spurs playing well, they always go for it at home when on form.

If Arsenal were flying I'd expect them too to go at any team at home and away and i felt they did try to some extent in the first half last night. I just thought Arsenal got more edgy in the second half when the possibility of collapsing presented itself. The fear of losing was greater at that stage and they are not a team with confidence at the moment.

[OwlsFan]

I am afraid you totally overrate Ashley Cole just as another Arsenal supporter on this Forum overrates the current Denis Bergkamp - I was subject to a personal attack becuase I said he was a mirthless drip who was past his sell by date and I haven't seen anything that had changed my opinion of him this season, albeit from the comfort of an armchair.

Ashley Cole reminds me of Terry Phelan. Plenty of pace but not a great distributor of the ball. Good but not great.

I always thought that Arsenal relied too heavily on Henry. With Viera gone and, if the press is to be believed, Henry to go soon after, I would be surprised if Arsenal regain their supremacy.

As an Owls fan, Arsenal to me will always be 1993

[pete]

Spurs look to have good squad & respect to whoever is making the decisions on signings.

Good spine to the team & enough options in attack when players off form. They will miss King badly as Gardner is terrible - can see why Defender targetted in transfer window.

[Karlos]

I am afraid you totally overrate Ashley Cole just as another Arsenal supporter on this Forum overrates the current Denis Bergkamp - I was subject to a personal attack becuase I said he was a mirthless drip who was past his sell by date and I haven't seen anything that had changed my opinion of him this season, albeit from the comfort of an armchair.

Ashley Cole reminds me of Terry Phelan. Plenty of pace but not a great distributor of the ball. Good but not great

I disagree completely on this. There's a myriad of quotes i can pull up from the World's Top Managers on his performances for Arsenal and for England
at the last major tournament Euro 2004. He's only 24 and getting better and better annually both as an attacking force and a defender. Arsenal's dominant left sideded players Pires & Henry have a lot to thank Cole for not having them to worry about defending and being a valuable outlet on the offensive.


as a sidenote, Dennis Bergkamp today is nothing on the Dennis Bergkamp circa 1998 - a true genius but when your 37 you don't play like your 28.

As an Owls fan, Arsenal to me will always be 1993

God bless Steven Morrow and Andy Lineghan!

[OwlsFan]

As a sidenote, Dennis Bergkamp today is nothing on the Dennis Bergkamp circa 1998 - a true genius but when your 37 you don't play like your 28.

That's what I said is so many words.

God bless Steven Morrow and Andy Lineghan!

What really bugs me about that is I am not sure if they ever scored another goal for Arsenal. Imagine losing two Cup Finals to goals from Morrow and Andy Lineghan I was behind the goal for Lineghan's winner in the FA Cup Final. Woods should have saved it and the game gone to penos.

[sligoman]

I fell asleep for the whole of the 2nd half. It's not the same without Keane and Vieira anyway.

[Karlos]

That's what I said is so many words..

An you were right!

What really bugs me about that is I am not sure if they ever scored another goal for Arsenal. Imagine losing two Cup Finals to goals from Morrow and Andy Lineghan I was behind the goal for Lineghan's winner in the FA Cup Final. Woods should have saved it and the game gone to penos.

I'm sure you won't agree on this but it was lovely to see such undung hero's getting the winning goals. Both hardly ever scored and were never really fan favourites up till that point but by god both wrote themselves into history that year!

[joeSoap]

I think they don't upset the dressing room harmony and are adequate in an emergency.(

Harmony to me is unison; people by and large speaking the same language in more ways than one. Arsenal on any other night for example have dialects or forms of: English, German, French, Spanish, Brazilian, Dutch, Belarussian, Swedish, Estonian, whatever the native tongue of Cameroon and the Ivory Coast is, Italian and Swiss to contend with.

Its true variety is the spice of life, but its impossible to see how all these guys can be on the same wavelength all the time, culturally as well as lingually. Only Cole, Campbell and Anthony Stokes are 'domestic' at the moment in the first team squad (Bentley and Hoyte are gone or on loan).

I'm not knocking it, but I can see serious flaws in its operation.

[NeilMcD]

Ashley cole is a top class player. About 2 years ago he was good going forward but very suspect at the back. But he has eradicated this from his game and he was top Class in Euro 2004 and ever since. A really good left full and there is not many better in the World Game in that Position.


Goint Point about confidence Karlos, but I would have liked Arsenal to have gone for it a bit more against Utd. Afterall Utd did have Fletcher and O Shea as their central pairing hardly top class or experienced, but actually both played or were let play well. So playing 5 in midfield in my view did not work as well as it should have. Fabregas and Gilberto should be able to handle Fletcher and O Shea anyday of the week

[OwlsFan]

I'm sure you won't agree on this but it was lovely to see such unsung heroes getting the winning goals. Both hardly ever scored and were never really fan favourites up till that point but by god both wrote themselves into history that year!

For the neutral or Arsenal supporter, yes. I am sure those players cherish those memories (even if Morrow broke his shoulder in the celebrations) far more than most of the other Arsenal players but I too will carry them to my grave. When you've won one major trophy in 70 years, you don't easily forget losing two finals in the one year to the same team. Still hurting

[Karlos]

Harmony to me is unison; people by and large speaking the same language in more ways than one. Arsenal on any other night for example have dialects or forms of: English, German, French, Spanish, Brazilian, Dutch, Belarussian, Swedish, Estonian, whatever the native tongue of Cameroon and the Ivory Coast is, Italian and Swiss to contend with..

The one vital ingredient is that all of the players with those nationalities (with the exception of Reyes) speak fluent perfect English. The Dutch guys speak better English than the English as does Jens Lehmann. Fabregas & Senderos have fluent English helped by living with an Irish woman in North London (who Senderos claimed jokingly tryed to poison him before the Ireland game!).

I don't believe language is the probelm at all and certainly wasn't in 2004 when a large bulk of this team where playing with even more Brazilians & French & only two other English players. The Ivory Coast lads speak both French & English. Another most important factor in all this is that the Manager himself is foreign and speaks 6 other languages.

Its true variety is the spice of life, but its impossible to see how all these guys can be on the same wavelength all the time, culturally as well as lingually. Only Cole, Campbell and Anthony Stokes are 'domestic' at the moment in the first team squad (Bentley and Hoyte are gone or on loan).

I'm not knocking it, but I can see serious flaws in its operation.

There's also Patrick Creagg who is Irish and listed as a first team squad member and Kerrea Gilbert from London as well as Fabrice Muamba who is from Congo (i think) by nationality but raised in England.

Stokes is also part of the reserve/carling cup team set up who regualry train with the first team of which there are 3 other Irish players in Tracey, Kelly & Creagg as well as 9 or 10 English youth international players (and that's leaving aside the 3 out on loan in Bentley, Smith & Hoyte). Granted only two English are first team regualars but it's a common fallacy that everyone at Arsenal is foreign.

As i said on an earlier post, Bentley & Pennant for example caused dressing room unrest when they were at the club and they were domestic born. It always been Wenger's stance that he would play players based on ability and not on nationality and it should be the case. He's paid to coach and put out the best 11 players regardless of where they are from.

[NeilMcD]

Another great post about Aresenal there Karlos, The only place that I think nationality would come into it would be for away games against Bolton West Brom Newcastle etc. This is were teams play hard and get into Arsenal under the impression that Arsenal are a bit of a soft touch. In fact Utd did this for about 4 or 5 games over the last 2 and half years too. I dont think language is a problem. I always found it strange that Arsenal did not do better in Europe like they are doing this season as their play seems better suited to it.

[Karlos]

Afterall Utd did have Fletcher and O Shea as their central pairing hardly top class or experienced, but actually both played or were let play well. So playing 5 in midfield in my view did not work as well as it should have. Fabregas and Gilberto should be able to handle Fletcher and O Shea anyday of the week

I don't think 5 in midfield has ever worked for Arsenal under Wenger. In fairness to him he put only one defensive midfilder in that 5 man midfield - Reyes, Fabregas, Hleb & Pires are all more attack minded than defensive but it's certainly didn't work. I think Cole's absence (and even more so Clichy's) has really effected our usually stronger left side where Pires and Henry bomb forward, link up with the left back and don't worry about defending too much. That's just not possible with Cygan at left back both from an attacking and defensive point of view although I still maintain he's brought a different type of stability in recent weeks.

[Karlos]

Another great post about Aresenal there Karlos, The only place that I think nationality would come into it would be for away games against Bolton West Brom Newcastle etc. .

Nationailty in the sence of what to expect from away games in these places but even more so experience to deal with it. I felt Bolton and West Brom battered the young lads and Arsenal missed not just an Adams or a Keown but also a Vieira - it's at these away games that a physical presence more than anything has been missing

I always found it strange that Arsenal did not do better in Europe like they are doing this season as their play seems better suited to it.

It's funny cause people always say Arsenal are rubbish in Europe and too a large extent they are right. It's interesting to see that they were never knocked out by more than one goal or an away goal in the knockout stages. They've had one or two moments of lapses that really cost them - Valencia away, Bayern away, Chelsea at home are ones that instantly spring to mind - two of them were lost to late dramatic goals from winning positions and one from 5 minutes of madness in Germany. They are (were ) certainly capable of winning it in my opinion.

[joeSoap]

I don't think 5 in midfield has ever worked for Arsenal under Wenger.

You're right...It hasn't. Yet, he persists with it, and that to me is a major flaw in his ability. He, like Ferguson and Mourinho is an arrogant man,(perhaps you have to be tobe a successful manager) very much of the 'my way or the highway' philosophy. Great when you're winning, but no so cool at the moment for him. Ferguson went down a similar route a few seasons ago, trying to get United to play 'European' style football, and they were a a shambles to be fair, and it nearly cost him his job.

I believe that really successful sides suffer from a couple of things; complacency being one, and the fact that everyone wants a piece of them is another. It happened to United, its happening to Arsenal, and it will happen to Chelsea too in a few years when they can consider themselves to be half the side the United of the 94/03 era, or the Arsenal side from 98/04 were.