Questions and Answers

[Gareth]

Dominated by Traveller discussions. Very interesting program. However one thing always gets me and it was touched upon numerous times before being batted down due to it sounding like your denying a group its rights and its this point:

I personally don't view the Travelling community as a separate ethnic grouping. I personally find it baffling that I pay tax (a bloody large chunk of it too), I pay electricity and phone and water and bin charges etc, and I need to save every penny to scrap together enough money to get a deposit on a house or an apartment that might be lucky enough to have 3 bedrooms, and then I listen to travelling groups demanding free housing and services when I doubt most have ever paid a penny tax in their lives? How? How is this possible? Now lets drop the PC bullsh1t and have a frank and open conversation on this? I am charged for littering, but any travelling group I have EVER met has made a mess of any area they enhabited. They claim its lack of facilities but then they could argue that whilst in residance on a local green???? Insane. I am all for cultural diversity but to have that you need to be a culture first!!!?

I am sure there are lovely travelling families but all my exposure of the community have been weekly calls to my door begging for money, a local green belt being overrun and turned into a tip and generally a bunch of negatives.

Can someone help me out here and explain what I am missing that makes them deserving of free housing?

[Snoop Drog]

Thanks Gareth- Sometimes I need reminding why I don't live in Ireland anymore and I recall now that it is, in no small part, thanks to small-minded bigoted people like you.

[Gareth]

I would not consider myself small minded Snoop Drog. I am going on my experiences. I am genuinely curious to the answers to the questions I asked and if you can tell me them rather than suggesting I'm small minded. I fully am open to convincing on this. Are you a traveller? I would like to hear your point of view if you are?

What I would be perfectly happy with is if they purchased teh land, built their houses etc rather than waiting for the government to do it? Thats all? I don't expect anyone to buy me a house so why should an entire community? If thats unreasonable then fair nuff!

[Snoop Drog]

Mate, to single out Travellers in the way that you did, as recipients of social housing, smacks of igorance and racism. I don't have the housing figures to hand but you will find that travellers make up but a small minority of "free housing". In my own town of Drogheda there are whole estates of council housing but the number of travellers being housed in the town would be limited to less than 20 families. I think you would find the same in every other town and city in the country.

Travellers often leave a mess behind them, which is down to lack of facilities and lack of education on the problem.

To deny them their ethnic heritage though shows that you may lack similar knowledge on this problem.

[sligoman]

Travellers often leave a mess behind them, which is down to lack of education on the problem.

Education my feck, it's common sense to clean up after yerself!. If you tried to educate them about dumping rubbish they would probably turn around and say that your discriminating against them.

[Snoop Drog]

Yep, just pop your rubbish in the wheelie bin and the council will pick it up Tuesday

[Gareth]

We pay bin charges to get them bins picked up? Nothing wrong with that? Same way as if you want milk deliivered you pay for it. Its a service?

[dfx-]

Travellers often leave a mess behind them, which is down to lack of facilities and lack of education on the problem.

Laughable if it were not so serious.

[Snoop Drog]

There are plenty of people out there who don't pay rates, don't pay tax and don't contribute financially to our society but to single out Travellers, who make up such a small % of social welfare recipients is wrong.

There is strong feeling about this subject in Ireland (and the UK too judging by its influence on the last general election there) but for me the case is simple- These people are the last generations of an age old race of nomadic people, with their own customs, values and languages, who once where held in high esteem by the settled community but now have no place within the Celtic Tiger.

Gareth, your point that you would be perfectly happy for them to buy land and bulid on it (that's very big of you Gareth...) but you will find that even that isn't possible. I know that Louth County Council as a matter of routine turns down all planning applications made by travellers. I suspect similar unofficial policies exist throughout the country. And that's not just left-wing rhetoric- It's fact mate.

[Gareth]

I may have started this off a little wrongly. I am all for social inclusion of different cultures and peoples. But regardless of culture or race or whatever, I dislike being taken advantage of. Be it the person who scams the social welfare or someone drunk driving or someone not paying taxes. Its unfortunate I needed to highlight a group but there is a disproportionate amount of travellers looking for free housing as a community compared to any other culture or grouping or whatever you wish to call it. I am sorry if I came across bigoted. I certainly would not consider myself to be.

I just read your post posted after I posted. Feck buying land so and just buy a house then. If they are clean and adhere to standard community laws then there is no problem. We all live under the same set of laws. Saying they speak their own language is as laughable as saying Irish people all speak Irish. Their customs and values must come under the umbrella of the law. Likewise Canon law should do likewise. No culture or their laws should be outside the laws of the land.

Their place in Irish Society was that as nomadic travellers who tended to have a trade which was required by a community perhaps they travelled into. Society changes.

[sligoman]

I know that Louth County Council as a matter of routine turns down all planning applications made by travellers. I suspect similar unofficial policies exist throughout the country. And that's not just left-wing rhetoric- It's fact mate.

Well I know for a fact that their is travellers in Sligo that have taken up a whole public car park. There are a few spaces for cars left but not many people are brave enough to park there. These travellers have been there for a number of years and what does the Council do? It grants them permanent residency on that land. They now effectively have an address there and Sligo loses out on a fairly big car park, it's disgracful. These travellers are also a big drug dealing family in the town, they are involved in an ongoing feud within Sligo which resulted in a traveller man shot dead a few months back. Can you please tell me what good they are adding to society?

[Snoop Drog]

there is a disproportionate amount of travellers looking for free housing as a community compared to any other culture or grouping or whatever you wish to call it.

I don't think that is the case Gareth, I think if you look at other non-Irish settled cultures in our society, such as African and East European refugees, you will find that there is a huge dependance on "free housing". I would expect that within a couple of generations all these people wil lhave blended into the Irish cultural melting pot (become 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' as the history books would tell us) and hopefully will contribute more $$$ to society, which seems to be how you are measured in our society these days.

[Gareth]

I measure society on a number of factors. Not just monetary ones. Yes African and Eastern Europeans are a small subset of a greater community they left in Eastern Europe and Africa. The travellers are not part of a larger community in another country somewhere? I personally think we are heading for a disaster in the way we are dealing with refugees too btw. Shoring them into one area and increasing levels of unemployment amoungst them is creating slums. I worked for a year in a bank which had the social welfare account ofr most of North Dublin. I certainly need no lesson on Ireland's social welfare nightmare system. I do think however we need to talk about these things. If you think I am a bigot, I am very open to debate. Too often debate ends in hostility and pointless namecalling.

Heading to bed now. I hope I dont wake up to a hate campaign against me

[Snoop Drog]

Well I know for a fact that their is travellers in Sligo that have taken up a whole public car park. There are a few spaces for cars left but not many people are brave enough to park there. These travellers have been there for a number of years and what does the Council do? It grants them permanent residency on that land. They now effectively have an address there and Sligo loses out on a fairly big car park, it's disgracful. These travellers are also a big drug dealing family in the town, they are involved in an ongoing feud within Sligo which resulted in a traveller man shot dead a few months back. Can you please tell me what good they are adding to society?

I don’t condone drug dealing and I don’t condone the good people of Sligo losing a few parking spots. It is hard to know what these families contribute based on the couple of facts you have outlined.

The point regarding the permanent residency is different to the point I was making about Louth CoCo. Saying that they can stay in that car park (because, I assume, there is nowhere else for them) is different to not granting them permission to develop land that they own.

[hamish]

I'm the old git in Footieland so I guess I can remember the Traveller situation in the 60s and 70s.

In those days, there was a passively negative attitude towards the Travelling Community BUT they seemed then to have a greater purpose in life, if still on society's fringes with massive infant mortality, illnesses, early death rates for adults etc. We used to buy buckets and dustbins from them (real quality too, they lasted unlike the plastic crap nowadays) and Travellers were often employed to dig and plant gardens, help load and bring home the turf etc etc. I remember they would join us all at the table after a helping us with a job and, in case anyone asks, nothing was nicked. One can argue whether that was right or wrong but that was the way it was. TBF, there were jobs offered, work accepted and work done and fair and equal pay to all workers, settled or otherwise.

Some settled here in Beeslow and have built up a great reputation selling (legit) furniture. No scams just good business.

True, there are a few here in the drugs business BUT also far more from middle and upper class dealing as well. I know who they are. To me a drug dealer is a drug dealer - a cnut - no matter where he/she comes from. The Gardai are fcuking useless nabbing ANY of them, settled or otherwise.

Also, when a massive housing estate was built (near my local footie club) they lumped a huge number of Travellers into one section of that estate instead of, for want of a better term, spreading them around the place. They actually built in a ready made ghetto. The results were inevitable but quietened a bit now.

I've had Traveller kids in my footie teams and in class too. My biggest problem was getting them regularly for training and matches - their transient lifestyle was a problem but they blended well with the other footballers TBH. My attitude was if they're good enough and trained they played. Couldn't give a sh!te where they came from.

In class, first year wasn't too bad but the attitudes of the other kids tended to polarise as the entered second year. The Traveller kids were ignored or abused (God knows how many times I gave so called settles kids AND their parents an earful because of this) and eventually drifted out of school. Sadly, in their first few weeks in school they were so enthusiastic and keen, it was bloody dispiriting to see them drift despite every effort we made. Also, the young traveller girls would disappear after first year 'cos they were betrothed and married off.

I really don't know how "we" and the Travellers are gonna get things sorted but there is no point ignoring them and ghettoising them - physically and socially. That solves nothing.

Maybe, through a better organised system of properly maintained halting sites - very good one near Tullamore station, I think), education (big problem there) and co-operation between Travellers representative bodies and Community organisations, political bodies etc etc we can make progress. I dunno if poor funding is the only problem here - I mean, look at the health service.

Don't forget, there are some (too few) hopeful signs. We have a few breaking the mould and becoming politicians, going to higher education, starting legit businesses. It's not all doom and gloom.

Personally, I sold a car to a member of the Travelling Community in 1989 and had no problems. He gave me the best price - unlike other "settled" ********s who were a pain in the ass - and did an amazing job on it, repainting it etc. AND he insured and taxed it.

In Beeslow, most of the aggro at nights is NOT Travellers. It's the kids of wealthy parents who spend more time in the fcuking golf club than actually parenting. These are the kids who get p!ssed and doped up to the eyeballs and cause trouble. I've seen it. Shakedown (my godson, did a lot of security in Galway city and Beeslow) saw it too and he'll verify that. Yeah, he dealt with p!ssed Travellers but most of the hassle came from the "settled" ie one particluar eggball club members who used to beat the crap out of each other in a Galway city nightclub - that nightclub being one of their sponsors BTW.

It's a long term problem sadly but society will have to deal with it. No point in wishing it away. Travellers will also have to accept responsibility and I suggest that, like many so called "traditions"(based on myth mostly, settled and otherwise) they could get rid of that betrothed nonsense for a start. Look at the big story in the UK at the moment where, in the Asian community, arranged marriages between cousins has resulted in a much higher incidence of deformities in offspring. This data came from Asian researchers BTW. Throw in female circumcision - another pseudo tradition.

Better stop now I'm getting into rant mode.

[Snoop Drog]

Good post, Sirhamish.

yeah, when I was a kid (25 years ago) my Grandad (a farmer) used to buy gates off travellers all the time. And an old guy used to call to our house about once a year selling, I think, pots. We never bought any bought he was always invited in for tea. I know this sounds more like De Valera's Ireland than anything else but he was certainly seen as a valid member of society.

Travellers stopped at our roadside for a couple of months about ten years ago and got heaps of abuse of the locals. Anyhow, I dropped up a ham to them (it was Christmas after all...) and they were genuinely touched by that. These people owned nothing- A sh1t car, a freezing caravan and that was it. Three young kids too. It shamed me that people lived like that in Ireland.

[Gareth]

I know this is harsh Snoop Drog but surely the fact they lived on the side of the road in a caravan is their choice? They could apply for social housing? I have mellowed in my sleep, and I know what old school travellers were all about. I hear the stories of them being an important part of the community and many masters at their trade. However goods got cheaper and we got richer and repairing things went by the board, with a preference to buy new. They got a bad name but is that all due to our prejudice or is there some fact in some of it? I do know that the halting site near me has been the focus of numerous garda raids and they have found weapons to dvd making business etc. Plenty of criminal activity eminating from there. That is way the bunch near me have a bad name?

[paul_oshea]

hamish please correct me if im wrong, but you are referring to tinkers ( from the 60s/70s? )there in your above post and not gypsies/travellers, there is quite a subtle difference between the two.

[Snoop Drog]

hamish please correct me if im wrong, but you are referring to tinkers there in your above post and not gypsies/travellers, there is quite a subtle difference between the two.

"Subtle difference", paul_oshea? What is the "subtle difference"

[paul_oshea]

can i just add, there is a lot of negative feedback here on travellers so i am going to give my own views.

There is a halting site at home, that is housing too many travellers at the moment, this set of travellers came up from cork about 10 years ago, and have "settled" in castlerea and are of no trouble at all, so much so that people campaigned to increase the size of the halting site to accomodate all the travellers, this has now been granted and fair enough housing hasnt been created, but wash houses and wc facilities will be available for every family. We even had them do our guttering, and in fairness to them they worked very hard and did a great job, well its still there 5 years down the line!!! Seriouslly though, they do trade around the town and are respected, well as well as any traveller can be which is another issue.

From a schooling(primary really) point of view, i always hated travellers joining us in school, and the reason for that was because they were bullies, they were always 2 or so years older than the class age, and would let ye know that, they never really tried to integrate and make friends etc.

This did change though a good if they continued past primary school a good example of this is a female friend of mine in secondary school, became quite good friends with a female traveller, she was a lovely girl btw, and quite intelligent also, but she left around third year, i might also add she was well fit, but you could still tell she was a traveller.

anyhow, just thought i would throw my twopence, at home since i was young there have been more "bad and nasty" travellers than they're have been good, but all that can be said about the current ones is there a good aul bunch of ppl and are doing the best they can.