Barney, Bikinis, Ballinasloe and Darwin.

[hamish]

Anyone ever see that movie where Raquel Welsh was running around the place in a skincloth bikini persued by monkey men and dinosaurs? I think it was called "One Million Year B.C".
I'm reminded by it because of the current brouhaha in the U.S. regarding "Intelligent" Design and Evolution. Aparently, in Pennsylvania, in a certain school, most school board members were voted off that body because they wanted to introduce I.D. in to the Science curriculum.
There are three or four theme parks in the States where one has dinosaurs and people on display, emphasising that Barney (not Rubble, but THAT irritating kid's show puppet) and Fred Flintstone really did exist at the same time.
On the Sky set up, just past all those selling channels, there's even a channel which harps on about how creationism is scientifically provable etc etc. Some Aussie bloke called McKay is the main "theory" proponent here- I think it's the Daystar or Revelation channel.

Anyone like to chat about this topic?? Will creationism and I.D. ever rear its head in this country? Will the likes of Justin Barrett have a new cause to promote and whinge about?
I'd like to hear any views. It's obvious which side of the fence I'm on. anyone in favour of I.D.? I believe some faith schools in England have I.D. classes too.
Is the world gone fcuking mad or what??
(I mentioned Beeslow in the heading 'cos some people think it's prehistoric anyway and I wanted to use a little alliteration).

[REVIP]

I think the anti-evolution thinking goes with a particular social and political agenda - it's about control. They are the people who want to control other people's lives and they want a God they can put into a neat box so as he's there to call on when they want backing for whatever they are doing.

Their "Christianity" is a private religion thing - never mind if their corporations are paying crap wages or ripping off poor people or destroying the environment or up to their eyes in corruption (Robert Fisk says that attention shifted from bin Laden, who they couldn't catch, to Iraq, which they could catch, on the day the Enron scandal broke).

Listen to some of the other stuff the "creationists" spout and you can quickly pick up the whole package!

[dahamsta]

The ID Freaks Win One

This is just the saddest, most pathetic ongoing story in recent months. Obviously I can't compare the Iraq and ID debates, but on just one basic issue, that of credibility and gullibility, it has to be said that at least at the heart of the Iraq problem there's a spark of a genuine debate: Saddam Hussein was a troublemaker, he may have needed to be dealt with anyway, it may have led to a very unfortunate 100k deaths.

At the heart of this is nothing, zero, nada, zilch, zip. At the heart of this is some very, very deluded and gullible people with absolutely ludicruous beliefs that defy science, that even the Vatican rejects. At the heart of this is a country that seems to be finding it increasingly difficult to separate fact from fiction.

In a recent poll over 50% of Americans thought that ID/creation was responsible for our being here on earth, as against ~30% that attributed our being here to the logical, scientific theory - yes a theory, but a logical, scientific one - of evolution. Tag this onto the beliefs of Americans when it comes to WMD and the like, and it becomes a very scary country indeed.

Does this make me an anti-american? I don't think it does. But I do think they need our help. Read into that what you will.

adam

Kansas Board of Ed. Adopts Intelligent Design
Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Tuesday November 08, @09:26PM
from the why-do-they-have-to-use-the-word-intelligent dept.
kwietman writes "The Kansas State Board of Education voted 6-4 to allow science students in public schools to hear materials critical of evolution in biology classes. The new curriculum mentions that theories of life arising from similar building-block molecules through purely random processes can be challenged by recent findings in the fossil record and by molecular biology. Not all were happy, however. 'This is a sad day. We're becoming a laughingstock of not only the nation, but of the world, and I hate that,' said board member Janet Waugh. The new standards will be used in statewide standardized testing; the students are still expected to know 'basic evolutionary principles.' As part of the decision, the Board of Education also went so far as to redefine science itself, saying that it is 'no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena.'"

I was tackled on some of my comments on Boards, so here's the thread over there so it's not repeated here. I'm Ken Shabby over there these days. Don't ask.

[paul_oshea]

I wanted to use a little alliteration

was that assonance or alliteration hamish?

[John83]

The sad part is that the decisions are being made by people who don't understand science.

For example, here's a case of a school board member who says she voted to include intelligent design in the school's science curriculum without knowing what it was because it was a scientific thingy http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...d=465812&rfi=6

[REVIP]

I didn't really maen to raise the Iraq issue, other than to mention Fisk's suggestion that it provided a diversion from discussion of corporate scandals.

I think the ID/creationist stuff fits in well with what Fintan O'Toole and Tony Kinsella say in 'Post-Washington'.

I think it's about control. I remember Sir Hamish saying one time about how life was in 1950s Ireland when certain people controlled everything, including how you should think and what you should see and read. Kansas seems like that. If everything doesn't fit into their definitions, then there is a danger that people might start questioning the right-wing religious stuff and doing their own thing

[Poor Student]

What exactly is the difference between Creationism and ID? Creationism is the assertion that the Book of Genisis is the literal truth and the earth is about 4000 years old, right? ID is the assertion that the book is a metaphor and that the earth is of God's intelligent design? Or is the designer an unamed higher power?

You've opened up a can of worms Uncle Hamish.

[John83]

What exactly is the difference between Creationism and ID? Creationism is the assertion that the Book of Genisis is the literal truth and the earth is about 4000 years old, right? ID is the assertion that the book is a metaphor and that the earth is of God's intelligent design? Or is the designer an unamed higher power?

You've opened up a can of worms Uncle Hamish.

ID is far more insidious than mere creationism. It'll accept that you've got scientific evidence that the world is a hell of a lot older than 5000 years, so God^H^H^HThe Intelligent Designer made it earlier. It'll accept that you've got evidence for some evolutionary change - but it'll argue that that can't explain everything. Essentially, it just says, "I don't get it, so God^H^H^HThe Intelligent designer must have done it."

Of course, it being religiously inspired, you'll find that there is plenty of variation in what people who profess to believe in ID actually think it means.


Oh, I guess plenty of people have seen this by now, but just in case: http://www.venganza.org/ is well worth a visit.

[dahamsta]

What exactly is the difference between Creationism and ID?

ID takes God out of it on the surface PS. It suggests that some things that have happened, like humanity, couldn't have done so without some kind of guiding hand. But it very specifically doesn't mention God. In truth, I believe this myself -- I don't believe in "God" per se and I'm totally not religious, but I do believe in some kind of higher power. But I very specifically wouldn't want it taught to my kids in the Biology labs in school.

Oh, I guess plenty of people have seen this by now, but just in case: http://www.venganza.org/ is well worth a visit.

A black one of these is dahamsta's fave tee atm. It's a photoshop of Michaelangelo's Creation of Adam, with the Flying Spaghetti Monster replacing God. It says "Touched By His Noodly Appendage".

adam

[Poor Student]

The Greeks were onto this about 3,000 years ago. It's very much echoed in Greek philosophy. The ordered cosmos of the universe and the driving power behind its creation and ordering.

I have heard before people saying the Theory of Evolution doesn't quite add up. Is anyone familiar with the trappings of it? Is this a cynical manipulation of the truth or is it not so water tight? This might sound like a stupid question but I'm an Arts student.

[dahamsta]

Should we answer in essay format PS?

[John83]

The Greeks were onto this about 3,000 years ago. It's very much echoed in Greek philosophy. The ordered cosmos of the universe and the driving power behind its creation and ordering.

I have heard before people saying the Theory of Evolution doesn't quite add up. Is anyone familiar with the trappings of it? Is this a cynical manipulation of the truth or is it not so water tight? This might sound like a stupid question but I'm an Arts student.

I haven't read enough on it to be confident arguing for it, but I have taken the time to read some of the arguments used by the ID people. Much of it betrays a real lack of understanding of what a scientific theory is and how it works.

For example, the peppered moth used to be used as an example of evolution. It was thought that London's industrial air pollution blackened tree trunks and so the peppered moth's colouring camoflaged it better than other varieties of moth.

It was later discovered that the man who photographed the moths had to paste the moths to the tree trunks to take his pictures. The moths were nocturnal and were asleep in the daytime on the underside of the leaves of the trees.

I've seen that presented as a debunking of a "proof" of evolution. Thing is, it was never a proof of evolution - it was an example of natural selection. An example chosen for its simplicity and its human timescale. The fact that it's not actually a good example doesn't prove anything. And I've yet to see someone actually suggest why the peppered moth proliferated when its lighter coloured cousins died off.

[Poor Student]

Should we answer in essay format PS?

In a Dr. Phil popular science-like nutshell soundbite format please.

[hamish]

Good God - perhaps an inappropriate way to start a reply given the context of this discussion but I didn't expect many replies to this topic.
I regularly read a website called "Newshounds - we watch Fox so that you won't have to" and all the above posts are remarkably similar to what the people posting in that site are saying. TBF, it's a non-Republican site so that's not a surprise.

REVIP - dead on. It is about control and I think also fear. Fear of change, fear of difference, fear of the world outside, fear of the future, fear of damnation and so and so on. Many Republican politicians are now tied to these far right evangelical nutjobs who can organise to put them in Washington or not. See what happened to Harriet Miers when she was a bit dodgy about abortion.

Poor Student - very true. But many feel in the US that I.D. is only opening the door for the full onslaught of Creationism which is lurking under I.D.'s coathills, so to speak. Yep, they believe the Bible is to be literally interpreted. So, basically, the syllabus in Science class in Kansas could be summed up in an old Raquel Welsh B movie.

Dahamsta - Thankfully, many parents are beginning to cop on and resist these wingnuts. The example I cited in the opening thread hopefully shows that but there will be losers here and there. One chap in Newshounds made one point worth noting. "How are Science graduates from Kansas gonna get a job anywhere?" Again, it seems to be where there is a lot of poverty and deprivation, lack of education etc that these "theories" flurish but NOT always.
As regards polls, don't a huge number of Americans believe that Elvis is still alive - saw that somewhere recently.

John83 - seems to be par for the course in many Red States. The weasel words the I.D. proponents use. "There is no mention of God, just a higher power". If they really believe there is a higher power behind it all, why don't they comes out and say it - GOD. It is tied in with the Middle East. The evangeilicals believe in The Rapture, that The Jews will be saved and that Israel must be protected for this to happen and, basically, that Islam is a corruption, not a religion. Just look at the demonisation of Muslims on Fox "News" lately vis-a-vis France, U.K. etc


Paul - you remind me of my Remedial teaching days. Assonace is related to internal rhyme and sound with emphasis on one vowel or linked vowels in the middle of trhe end word in a line. Common in poetry, Irish language good example. Popular music makes good use of assonance. EG:

Hamish is a sh!te
The drugs make him high.
The "i" sound links the two end words - sh!te and high.
Alliteration:
P!ssed Paul puked Pernod periodically.
(Just messing with ya Paul)

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...assonance.html

I used to use popular songs from various modern beat combos to play in Rem. Class to help the kids and of course the prescribed syllabus poetry and it seemed to work - they all passed English in the Junior Cert. (Hamish adopting smug pose and mumbling "Fcuk off O'Shea" LOL).

[dahamsta]

Paul - you remind me of my Remedial teaching days. Assonace is related to internal rhyme and sound with emphasis on one vowel or linked vowels in the middle of trhe end word in a line.

ROFL. You walked into that Paul.

[hamish]

the Flying Spaghetti Monster

adam

That monster regularly comes up in "Newshound", "Crooks and Liars", "Daily Kos" etc etc.
I am embarrassed to ask this, Dahamsta -
I have a rough idea about it but what does the Flying Spaghetti Monster actually mean or refer to???

[John83]

That monster regularly comes up in "Newshound", "Crooks and Liars", "Daily Kos" etc etc.
I am embarrassed to ask this, Dahamsta -
I have a rough idea about it but what does the Flying Spaghetti Monster actually mean or refer to???

It is a letter a guy sent to the Kansas school board (plus others now, it seems). Essentially, he goes on about how alternative theories of how we got here should certainly be considered, including Darwinism, ID and Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, which believes that the world was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He gives details of silly customs, and links global warming to the reduction in global numbers of pirates. Well worth a read. (the link's http://www.venganza.org/ in case you haven't seen it).

[hamish]

As regards remediation, I notice my spelling is gone to hell it really has.
Doesn't Science mean - investigation/study followed by observation followed by meaning followed by truth???

I.D. starts with truth therefore it cannot be called Science.

I agree with Dahamsta that there is perhaps a higher power but that can mean a million things.

How about another definition of intelligent design..eh..... evolution????

[Poor Student]

Arguing from the truth backwards is what is known as an argument a priori. Literally means 'from former' in Latin. It is essentially the major problem with an argument in an do with religion or more noteably Creationism v Evolution. There is the belief in the revealed truth and all arguments work a priori from there. You either have faith in your version of the revealed truth or you don't and this creates the clash which cannot be resolved.

[hamish]

It is a letter a guy sent to the Kansas school board (plus others now, it seems). Essentially, he goes on about how alternative theories of how we got here should certainly be considered, including Darwinism, ID and Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, which believes that the world was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He gives details of silly customs, and links global warming to the reduction in global numbers of pirates. Well worth a read. (the link's http://www.venganza.org/ in case you haven't seen it).

Gotcha John83 - kind of remember that story. I've heard variations of it too here and there- some very funny ones - wish I could remember where I saw them
A young lad was on some US TV News channel (MSNBC or CNN I think) last night and he was totally confused. He mentioned that he was supposed to come either from a monkey or a spare rib so he said -"maybe I'll make up my own theory". I don't know if he was being ironic but then again, Americans don't do irony, do they?