Bertie & the Catholic Church

[finlma]

So how do you suggest we give children a healthy moral start in life/society if we leave them in the dark until they are 18 to decide.....I, for one, cannot begin to imagine the society we would find ourselves in if that was the way.

You teach them morals and not religion - its quiet simple really. You don't have to be Catholic to be a good person.
So you're saying people who are not Catholics are left in the dark - how do you know its the correct religion - thats extreme naievity. If Catholicism is taught in schools then so should every other religion to give a fair balance.

[Tired&Emotional]

So you can't teach children between right and wrong without catholism? Why not change the schools to CofI then, if the only requirement is some form of religion. If people want their child to get a religious education, they can do it in their own time if that's what they want.

At the moment children and parents are bullied and forced to accept a catholic education. There is no choice. The state should provide non-demoninational schools only.

The state has evolved and as it has evolved religion is becoming far less important amongst irish people. To attempt to bring islam and immigration into the equation is an attempt to muddy the waters and is irrelevant to the discussion.

Take out the fact that we're becoming a multi-cultural society, and look at the irish people you know. How many go to mass, particularly those that don't have children (since many schools give priority to regular mass goers so force parents to go to church).

You're question should be "So you can't teach children between right and wrong without religion? " It's going to be one religion or another it just so happens we started off with Catholicism in this country. I am not suggesting one religion over another I am saying that without some sort of solid foundation (and in a teaching environment) society would become one without moral boundries.

The whole idea of schools is to teach societies' children as a whole. If parents were left to teach their own version of moral codes there would be no cohesive nature; some wouldn't bother, others would have their own ideas...too much pick 'n' mixing! The is fundamentely why the various societies around the world are centred on one particular religion or other...this is human nature. Religion,whatever it may be, is one of the superglues that holds a particular society/culture together. Where different societies conflict on their beliefs is another matter entirely!

The situation of being born into a society that is based on any religion is difficult to change for any minority therein where the majoity are reconciled to one faith....granted, this makes choice not so easy and there are no straight-forward solutions but no-one is bullying anyone....it is just that some find themselves outside the majority, it's no-ones fault!

If you are going to quote me then please do not put words in my mouth!! - i never even suggested brining "islam and immigration into the equation..."
What I speak of could be said from any standpoint, be it CofI or Hindu!!

Leaving aside the mutli-cultural nature of our society today, as you suggest, when it comes to mass goers, i think any responsible parent would, nay should, be taking their children to mass to give them a start in morals, faith etc ...it's central to a family of any faith! In this case, either they are Catholics or not - they can't have their cake and eat it!

[finlma]

Leaving aside the mutli-cultural nature of our society today, as you suggest, when it comes to mass goers, i think any responsible parent would, nay should, be taking their children to mass to give them a start in morals, faith etc ...it's central to a family of any faith! In this case, either they are Catholics or not - they can't have their cake and eat it!

What morals are taught at mass - not a single one. Its a load of ranting and people rattling of prayers without any meaning. I remember going as a child and I hated every single second of it. I will not bring any of my children to mass nor baptise them - and I can assure you I will be a very responsible parent and I can teach morals without religion.

[Green Army Girl]

well if it was printed in every national paper , overed in most international papers and news channels then id probibly have an idea .

I was talking about before it when public .im sure not every priest in every church knew wat was going on.

if a member of my family kidnapped raped tortured and murdered children and the whole family covered up for it would i dissown them? .. yes i would in a second , the very fact your trying to excuse any of them is quite sickening .

if i was a good priest id leave the church saying i cant be part of it any more .

Why would you leave a job you wanted to do. When footballers are up for rape charges you dont see Roy Keane going well im getting the f*ck out of this job now just because there is accusations being thrown around.


id accept a religion class as in a class that disscussed all religions didnt exclude any kids , there are such schools in ireland now where the kids disscuss the religous holidays as they happen , if its a islamic holiday they talk about what that means how it is celebrated etc ..

I agree you should have something in place where the child can go to the religion class where their religion is thought but arent you going back on what your point by saying now to have a religion class in schools.

how can you suggest that the catolic church be alloud to teach kids blatent lies , ie dinasours were put here by god as a trick to test our fate[/QUOTE]

Kids are told lies everyday even by us like there is a santa.(sorry to tell u lads) The church can voice what their beliefs are but its you who decides whether they are lies at the end of the day.

[Green Army Girl]

What morals are taught at mass - not a single one. Its a load of ranting and people rattling of prayers without any meaning. I remember going as a child and I hated every single second of it. I will not bring any of my children to mass nor baptise them - and I can assure you I will be a very responsible parent and I can teach morals without religion.

Well they are hardly teaching you at mass how to rob thy neighbour. The morals thought at mass are to respect and about peace whether people go out an pratice that its up to them.

Of course you can teach your child morals and i resepct you for that but where ever you get the idea that the church doesnt teach morals i dont know and dont use the abuse line we know that and ive made my feelins clear on that point

[finlma]

....dont use the abuse line we know that and ive made my feelins clear on that point

I didn't mention abuse in my posts - it has nothing to do with my point. My point is that a particular religion shouldn't be forced on people in public schools. Public schools should not teach religion - if a person wants their children to go to a Catholic/Protestant/Muslim/Buddhist school then fair enough.
Also children don't listen in mass - its way too boring for them. They're taught morals in the classroom.

[pete]

What has religion ever done for us anyway?

Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Holocaust, Genocide, too many wars to mention, Terrorism...

Wouldn't we be better off with a World Religion as most of the major world religions are based on the same people...

[anto1208]

Kids are told lies everyday even by us like there is a santa.(sorry to tell u lads) The church can voice what their beliefs are but its you who decides whether they are lies at the end of the day.

ah see now you have hit the nail in the face , you and me can decide whether they are lies or not but can a 5 or 6 year old kid ? . its brain washing


on the morals

there moral objection to IV treatment for couples that cant have kids , on stem cell research that could save millions of lives , because they think we are playing god , but if you belive in god and you belive he made us this way then he made humans this smart for a reason to figure out these things and help people . what did god make a mistake ??


it reminds me of a little story : there is a huge flood and every one is getting out of town ,bar this one guy who belives god will save him , as the water rises he climbs up onto the roof a passing boat says get in we ll save you he replies no i belive in god he will save me , the water rises to his kness , an other boat pass's same thing happens " god will save me " .
the water gets up to his neck the an other boat passes they say get in we'll save you this is the last boat , he says no ive faith that god will save me .

he drowns goes up to heaven meets god and says god im was a good man i prayed every day and never sinned why didnt you save me ..

to which god replies " who do you think sent all the boats "!!

[klein4]

just on the bertie thing.....does nobody who is supporting the catholic church on this thread think that his comments were at the very least insensitive given the ferns report is basically about priests who were taking advantage of the churches role in education in order to abuse children?????????

[Tired&Emotional]

What morals are taught at mass - not a single one. Its a load of ranting and people rattling of prayers without any meaning. I remember going as a child and I hated every single second of it. I will not bring any of my children to mass nor baptise them - and I can assure you I will be a very responsible parent and I can teach morals without religion.

I'm no "holy joe" myself, it has to be said but I if you have to ask what morals are being taught at mass then I think you miss the point of religious teachings.

I assume from this then you were born into a family of a particular religion but choose not to bring you kids up in the same way as you have become disillusioned with it for whatever reason - fair enough. And I understand what you are saying. But I just think there has to be a higher level of order for society ie religion in schools, a centrepoint to be built around, and yes, this may result in conflict for those who disagree but if the "system" was the other way 'round and there was no common ground to start from, society in general would become a nasty place to live...

[Green Army Girl]

I dont think its fair to say religion has done nothing. I see people who have lost some of the most important people in their lives and the only thing keeping them going is their religion and believing that they will see them again in heaven. So i dont see how thats a bad spin-off from religion.

I think its a great idea to have a religion class for each religion.

But my kids will be raised as Irish Catholics thats the way i was and i have morals (by no means am i a good litte catholic irish girl) but i treat people well and with respect

[Green Army Girl]

just on the bertie thing.....does nobody who is supporting the catholic church on this thread think that his comments were at the very least insensitive given the ferns report is basically about priests who were taking advantage of the churches role in education in order to abuse children?????????

Of course they were but why highlight was Bertie said when everyone else is saying it. He shouldnt have said what he did but people are just ready to pounce on people and im not going to bring a specific person like Bertie into it.

One of the greatest attribute of an Irish person was to forgive you dont have to forget i believe every dog has its day and those priests will and any other clergy member who knew about it. Thats all i have to say i dont want to be stressing the same points again and again.

So good nit and God bless

[Ash]

On another note, Religion is now an exam subject for the Junior and Leaving
Cert. For the Leaving it covers a range of religions but focuses on 1 as far as I know. Also teaches about morals, conscience etc.

[Bald Student]

Liz took a dig at a particular institution in Bertie's constituancy and Bertie defended his constituants (and his votes).

[Tired&Emotional]

just on the bertie thing.....does nobody who is supporting the catholic church on this thread think that his comments were at the very least insensitive given the ferns report is basically about priests who were taking advantage of the churches role in education in order to abuse children?????????

He is taking a standpoint of the Church, in this State, historically up to the present day. I don't think he was excusing it or defending the people of the Church that were directly involved. I think he said what he said so that impressionable people wouldn't just turn their back on the Church/State schools arr. (the ones looking for any excuse to) just because of what was reported about Ferns. Of course it is an absolute disgrace what went on but it does not mean that the good people, with intentions of spreading the Good News, teaching etc, who have been in the Church down the years, are to be viewed with the same distain as those who were named in the Ferns Report.

It will not be easy for thse victims of abuse to recover, if at all, but that does not mean the good should not be defended...it is not a slur on the victims and should not be interpreted as....

[John83]

On another note, Religion is now an exam subject for the Junior and Leaving
Cert. For the Leaving it covers a range of religions but focuses on 1 as far as I know. Also teaches about morals, conscience etc.

Does a child of atheist parents have to take that?

In relation to the earlier posts, I don't think that mass teaches children anything - they don't listen to it. You've got a priest standing far away talking in BIG landidge about stuff they don't understand. Ever bring a child to mass? They're bored and restless.

[anto1208]

But my kids will be raised as Irish Catholics thats the way i was and i have morals (by no means am i a good litte catholic irish girl) but i treat people well and with respect

surely if your by no means a good irish catolic your just lieing to yourself i thought it was all or nothing with religion or can you just pick and choose the bits that suit you and your life style ?

thats the way i am i dont agree with absolutly all the church's teachings so id feel like a hypocryte going to mass and pretending i was a catolic .

i do belive in god and his teachings but i choose to live my life the way he wants me to by being a good honest and kind person rather than sitting in a room once a week , chanting and handing over hard earned cash ... most people call these cults !! .

you ve been brain washed by this cult and now your doing the same to your kids .with out giving them a choice

[klein4]

A spokesman for the victims group was on the radio yesterday saying how it was offensive. thats why I asked the question. He made some pretty good points of which I cant remember well enough to be going misquoting him. maybe someone else who heard it might know. I dont think that the line about this only being a few bad apples holds water anymore. what are the actual statistics? remember the ferns report only refers to one diocese. Its only natural for people to defend their beliefs but I personally think the catholic church in Ireland should be showing a lot more remorse over what happened than they seem to be.they do have an important role to play in society. But they are in danger of losing any positive contribution they make by adapting a siege mentality. Yes the church is taking a bashing at the mo. But with good reason.

[Tired&Emotional]

you ve been brain washed by this cult and now your doing the same to your kids .with out giving them a choice

Before I pop to the chemist for a few aspirin after all this, I just had to say that's the biggest load of nonsense and indeed quite insulting to any member of the Catholic faith - I for one take offence.

If the subject matter was on Muslim or Mormon teaching and that type of remark was thrown aimlessly into a debate you would be told so by anyone who has a keen eye for all the -isms that are not PC on this forum, just so.

Think before you lash out with your own twisted insults please.

[klein4]

I agree with what your sayin but that oul "if it was said about muslims....blah balh blah..." is one of the most innane things that is always trotted out....and just as bloody offensive