Eircom League clubs asked for proposals on structure...

[NY Hoop]

NYHoop

I am with Mypost on this one. He is making points I made on this very issue in another thread. 4 times against the same team does not work. Some fans only go to one of the home games.

Some fans dont go at all! The main point here is that there is no other solution unless the All Ireland League happens soon. There is simply not the quality around for a 16 team league, the current system is a joke. What other league plays each other 3 times?!

The genesis report could have been written by any sane EL fan but they were right when they said we need a top tier of 10 teams.


KOH

[mypost]

Is playing every team away twice such a hardship?

Yes. It is. I don't think the boss, and players would be too happy of having to travel to Cork, and Waterford twice. Regarding those teams this year, we got lucky, and only had to go down to them once. We also only played in Tolka once. Last year we played there 4 times, the first and last match of the season, and on successive weeks halfway through. Also 36 games is too much to ask of part-time clubs, and that's before you count the other competitions, and friendlies.

The current sytem is a joke, a proven failure as you shouldn't have more home than away games and vice versa.

We had a perfectly good system that worked in this country for 15 years, until the bigger clubs, Rovers included, wanted to play each other every couple of weeks. The fans voted with their feet, and the experiment failed. The league is too small to have any more or less than 12 clubs in the division, and on a practical level, you simply can't have a 44-game season in this country.

What other league plays each other 3 times?

Denmark.

[NY Hoop]

Yes but we're in Cork twice next year. Again you're twisting it. We did play in tolka 4 times last year because CHF were playing there.

36 games is too many for part time clubs? Are you joking?? It's 3 extra games and half of the premier clubs are full time now anyway.

It's a myth to say, just because you play each other 4 times, you play the same team "every few weeks". Last year we played boez in April, June, August and November. Hardly "every few weeks".

"The fans voted with their feet". Explain that. What evidence have you that crowds were down significantly overall? And no anecdotal evidence such as "several supporters said it to me".

Who said anything about 44 games??

KOH

[mypost]

Yes but we're in Cork twice next year.

Are we?? Next season's fixture list is not automatically reversed from this season. We may still have to only go down there once. We will only know who plays who, where, and when, when it comes out in late February.

We did play in tolka 4 times last year because CHF were playing there.

If there were 12 teams last season, and 3 rounds, we may only have had to go there twice, instead of a mandatory 4 times.

36 games is too many for part time clubs? Are you joking?? It's 3 extra games and half of the premier clubs are full time now anyway.

There are 5 full-time clubs, and 17 part-time clubs in the league. It's unfair to expect PT players to have to get time off work every time, to play re-arranged games. Fans can't get every Monday, and Tuesday off work to go up to Derry/Dublin/down to Cork, to attend re-arranged games, cos' the fixture set-up (36 games) is crap.

It's a myth to say, just because you play each other 4 times, you play the same team "every few weeks". Last year we played boez in April, June, August and November. Hardly "every few weeks".

It's not just Bohs. It's Shels, Pats, Cork, and Derry as well. That's without playing Longford 3 times in 3 weeks. It's very boring to see the same teams play each other every few weeks.

[chippie0001]

Sorry but how can they even think of changing the format to 10 teams? Thats not possible now as think of what would happen to the 2 teams that finish second and third last, would they go down? I think if they are looking for changes it would have to be for the season after next.

[NY Hoop]

Are we?? Next season's fixture list is not automatically reversed from this season. We may still have to only go down there once. We will only know who plays who, where, and when, when it comes out in late February.

If there were 12 teams last season, and 3 rounds, we may only have had to go there twice, instead of a mandatory 4 times.

There are 5 full-time clubs, and 17 part-time clubs in the league. It's unfair to expect PT players to have to get time off work every time, to play re-arranged games. Fans can't get every Monday, and Tuesday off work to go up to Derry/Dublin/down to Cork, to attend re-arranged games, cos' the fixture set-up (36 games) is crap.

It's not just Bohs. It's Shels, Pats, Cork, and Derry as well. That's without playing Longford 3 times in 3 weeks. It's very boring to see the same teams play each other every few weeks.

Yet again you are obviously not reading my points. Generally the fixtures are reversed and I would be surprised if next season they are not simply because some clubs would be upset at going to Derry or Cork twice again.

When there is a 10 team league and you play each other 4 times you go away twice not "the mandatory 4 times".

Who said anything about re-arranged games? Or games on mondays or tuesdays? As I've pointed out already IF the league fixtures were set out properly there would be no need for midweek games.

Finally I have already pointed out the "every few weeks" myth. Longford 3 times in as many weeks was because of the Cup


KOH

[pete]

It is stupid to use any other country as reason for our league format.

Better quality in 10 team league, attendances no difference between 10 or 12 teams. Only downside of 10 team is playing each team 4 times instead of 3.

Why oh why the constant tinkering of the league format? Do the clubs/league/FAI think that there is a magic number of teams that will suddely cure all the leagues problems???

[mypost]

Here we go, Round 6:

Generally the fixtures are reversed and I would be surprised if next season they are not simply because some clubs would be upset at going to Derry or Cork twice again.

Some of the fixtures will be reversed, some won't. It's lucky dip. Just because we played in Cork once this year, does not necessarily mean that we are there twice next year. Likewise, playing in Derry twice this year, does not automatically mean that they will play in Santry twice next year either, and so on down the line. While some fixtures will be reversed, it will not happen in every case. All will be decided in February.

When there is a 10 team league and you play each other 4 times you go away twice not "the mandatory 4 times".

I'll try to make it clearer again. Shels and Home Farm shared the same ground last year. Because of the 10-team system, we had to go to Tolka 4 times.

If they shared the same ground this season with both clubs playing in the same division, we may have had to play them at home twice, and away once, under the current system, meaning two less visits to Tolka. As it turned out, because of the current set-up, we only had to go there once. Under the old set-up, we would have had to go there 4 times.

Who said anything about re-arranged games? Or games on mondays or tuesdays? As I've pointed out already IF the league fixtures were set out properly there would be no need for midweek games.

Because of the 4-round of games brought about by the 10-team league, a very high number of league games were cancelled. All those games had to be re-arranged in mid-week, which put extra demands on players, and away fans. With 3 weeks remaining this season, there are just 2 games yet to be played. That highlights the benefits of playing teams less often, with less fixture congestion.

Clearer now?

[NY Hoop]

The fixtures will more than likely be reversed.

So what if we had to go to tolka 4 times. Hardly a long distance. Actually as it turned we only had to go there once this year cos CHF got relegated.

It wasnt because of the structure of the 10 team league that fixtures were cancelled

AGAIN if the 36 games were properly done out at the start of the season there would be no need for midweek fixtures. I cannot make that any clearer.

BTW we have 4 fixtures left.

Clearer now?


KOH

[pineapple stu]

Some of the fixtures will be reversed, some won't. It's lucky dip. Just because we played in Cork once this year, does not necessarily mean that we are there twice next year. Likewise, playing in Derry twice this year, does not automatically mean that they will play in Santry twice next year either, and so on down the line. While some fixtures will be reversed, it will not happen in every case.

Not true at all, I'm afraid. I looked at UCD's fixtures over the last ten seasons when some Cork fan was crying about a conspiracy when the 2005 fixtures came out. The fixtures were reversed every single time with one or two exceptions. One or two exceptions over ten seasons doesn't constitute a lucky dip, as far as I'm concerned.

Better quality in 10 team league, attendances no difference between 10 or 12 teams. Only downside of 10 team is playing each team 4 times instead of 3.

More chances of clubs developing in 12-team league, without being condemned to the First Division. Attendaces no difference between 10 or 12 teams. Only downside of 10 team is playing each team 3 times instead of 4.

Very much personal preference which one you go for, I think. I do agree that it's stupid to be changing every other year though.

[Student Mullet]

It makes sence to have 12 in the premier instead of the first as both ends of the premier are interesting. The top teams are in contention for europe untill very near the end and the bottom clubs are not usually safe or relegated untill near the end aswell. There is very little mid table.

In the first there are much fewer interesting league places. With no relegation and re-election a mere formality it makes sence for the first division to be smaller than the premier because it leaves fewer clubs with nothing to play for in the second half of the season.

[mypost]

AGAIN if the 36 games were properly done out at the start of the season there would be no need for midweek fixtures. I cannot make that any clearer.

The league started and finished on the same weekend last year, as this year, and with 3 games left, (for most clubs) there are 2 re-scheduled games yet to be played. At the same stage last year, there were more than 10 re-arranged games. The league fixture list should allow for postponements due to European games, underage call-ups, cup games, cup replays, etc, but doesn't. Because 36 games needed to be squashed in somewhere, the 10-team league caused a multiple fixture pile-up. With less games to play this year, that has been largely avoided this season.

BTW we have 4 fixtures left.

I think that obvious fact was recognised by:

With 3 weeks remaining this season, there are just 2 (re arranged) games yet to be played.

Not true at all, I'm afraid. I looked at UCD's fixtures over the last ten seasons when some Cork fan was crying about a conspiracy when the 2005 fixtures came out. The fixtures were reversed every single time with one or two exceptions. One or two exceptions over ten seasons doesn't constitute a lucky dip, as far as I'm concerned.

You're basing that on one club's fixture list. While 60, perhaps 70% of all fixtures next season will have been reversed from this year, we won't know exactly how many there will be, and I guarantee you that there will be repeats next year, of this season's fixtures. Nobody knows exactly how many times, or when, a side will play at home or away to a, b, or c, next season, until the list comes out in February.

[pete]

I don't necessaryily agree with 12 team Premier but IMo it should stay like that for another 2 years. Idiotic to be changing every season. How can clubs plan for season ticket prices or budgets if structure not decided year in advance?

[thomas]

The good point on the dates here is that St. Patricks day is taken in. This is a "stay home" weekend so should allow the club to stage well attended games. The bad point is that the season runs until December. They really should kick off on March 3rd to avoid playing in december as it makes a mockery of "summer" football.
The break for the worldcup might be good, or might be bad. Financally it means cash strapped clubs may have to go up to 5 weeks without income from a home game. It also means clubs lose out on the football buzz, imo its a great opportunity to get punters into club bars for matches on the tele and then head out to watch their team (or, equally good, stay drinking in the bar).

As for the following season, a 16 team division would be very weak at the bottom but with no threat of relegation for mediocre teams. It may also struggle to get License compliant clubs. It would be ideal for an all ireland league though.
The reality is that a 10 team division is best for raising the standard of football, 12 teams is too comfortable for a lot of clubs that are on the brink. Crowd wise its no better or worse than a 12 team division. Even as a Rovers fan I would say a ten team premier is ideal until we move on to an all ireland league with 16 teams.

[A face]

I haven't read this thread but i think we should leave things the way they are until there are extra teams to add to the league, i.e. 16 team premier, 12 team first or something like that !!

[pineapple stu]

You're basing that on one club's fixture list.

So work it out for others. Present some evidence (and not playing in Tolka four times because Home Farm happened to play there) to the contrary. The fixtures, with one or two exceptions, alternate. It's not a conspiracy. There's a definite pattern.

[Stevo Da Gull]

I dont think that making the league smaller is an attractive option. Clubs playing each other 4 times a season really destroyed derby matches. 12,14 or 16 team premier for me.

[NY Hoop]

[QUOTE=mypost]The league started and finished on the same weekend last year, as this year, and with 3 games left, (for most clubs) there are 2 re-scheduled games yet to be played. At the same stage last year, there were more than 10 re-arranged games. The league fixture list should allow for postponements due to European games, underage call-ups, cup games, cup replays, etc, but doesn't. Because 36 games needed to be squashed in somewhere, the 10-team league caused a multiple fixture pile-up. With less games to play this year, that has been largely avoided this season.

But as I have pointed out umpteenth times if the league was scheduled properly it can work. Start the season the first weekend of March, use the bank holidays and it can finish the end of october.

I think that obvious fact was recognised by:

Eh your exact quote was: "With 3 weeks remaining this season, there are just 2 games yet to be played. " But good of you to edit it

Thomas hits the nail on the head: "The reality is that a 10 team division is best for raising the standard of football" and that is the primary reason it should be a 10 team premier.

Bringing more teams into the league is a definite no no and increasing the size of the premier will weaken it. Start the 2007 season with a 10 team premier and stick with it. The chopping and changing has to cease.

KOH

[pete]

I think the fixtures have worked well this season as very few if any midweek games so more room for postponements later in the season. Also rearranged games weere scheduled quickly & not left for months like last season. I think its important to avoid midweek games in the least 4-6 weeks to allow for rearranged games cos of cup or weather.

[thomas]

I've re read the report and frankly the need to promote matches as "events" and the 10 team league proposal as favoured by genesis or 12 team premier do not sit well.

One option they skimmed over is a 16 team league but obviously that would leave the first division at 6 teams. However genesis propose 8 regional teams have access to the second tier but dont apply it to the 16 team league example.

A 30 game premier division would bring back the once off nature of each game even if it initially meant a few crapper team in it.
The 26 game first division is also ideal for a part time / amateur structure. It could easily be extended to include 2 more teams if the clubs felt they needed more revenue and that is just 2 more than Genesis recommend anyway.

Another issue is the UEFA License requirements and the need for all premier clubs to have premier licenses. If the clubs are serious the 16 team premier and 16 team first division could be a runner. However if they dont bother it looks like we will have a 10 team premier however much we moan.