Unions - The Root Of All Evil?

[Peadar]

A land of help yourself and fcuk everyone else

I think the Union members going on strike because their employer wants to hire extra staff is a classic example of helping themselves and fúcking everyone else.
I'd laugh if all you pro union heads got stuck in Dublin airport during their strike. I'm sure you'd be out cheering them on.

[dahamsta]

It's done on almost every post.
Things are much easier when you organise stuff into groups.

I'm not sure I'm following you Peadar. You want I should organise the right-wing god-bothering nutjobs and the left-wing treehugging queers into two different forums or something? Or maybe we could try this: Quit stereotyping, labelling and pigeonholing, and debate rationally? Nah, it'll never work.

(For the record, I've never been a member of a union. I admit they have their problems, however in general I believe we are better off with them, than without. See the way I didn't pigeonhole anyone there Peadar? You should try it sometime. Then you won't sound like a bigoted Ulster-Says-No rant-factory like Ian Paisley.

No offense.)

adam

[davey]

I think the Union members going on strike because their employer wants to hire extra staff is a classic example of helping themselves and fúcking everyone else.
I'd laugh if all you pro union heads got stuck in Dublin airport during their strike. I'm sure you'd be out cheering them on.

Actually yes. I do not have a god given right to travel. My travelling arrangements are not more important than the working rights of hundreds of workers who have decided to vote with their feet and use the only right they have when faced with management greed - withdraw their labour. Don't know the ins and outs of the Dublin airport case. If truth be told, I'm not up to date with the current state of Industrial relations in Ireland. My travelling arrangements were actually affected by the recent Gate Gourmet dispute at Heathrow Airport - annoying? Yes. As annoying as being told you were going to lose your job that you'd had for many years, because a greedy company wants to replace you with cheap Eastern European labour? - I don't think so.

Believe it or not, people don't like going on strike. You don't get paid you know

[Peadar]

You should try it sometime. Then you won't sound like a bigoted Ulster-Says-No rant-factory like Ian Paisley.

I was showing total disregard and utter contempt for them, just like they do when they cause large scale disruption with their industrial action, in a bid to prevent others from gaining employment.

[dahamsta]

That's right Peadar, "they" are out to get you. Boogah-boogah!

[Peadar]

That's right Peadar, "they" are out to get you.

Well there's another reason to despise them. Hadn't even considered that.
Down with the Unions of Evil!

[pete]

For the record I don't agree with what Irish Ferries are doing as it is illegal to replace make someone redundent unless there is no job for them. AFAIK the Irish Ferries workers are getting compensated a lot & under irish law they could refuse to accept argue that their job still exists.

However reality is that in that scenario Irish ferries would fold & make workers redundent & then start new company with new workers.

I've no doubt unions serve their own members at times but the unions do not serve the interests of the public & are selfish. In fact the most powerful & selfish unions is the white collar bank officials.

Can anyone tell me what unions have ever done for me?

[dahamsta]

Can anyone tell me what unions have ever done for me?

Tempted as I am to quote Monty Python...

Most of these are US-centric, but there should be enough there to get you started.

adam

[Macy]

I've no doubt unions serve their own members at times but the unions do not serve the interests of the public & are selfish. In fact the most powerful & selfish unions is the white collar bank officials.

Eh, pete the whole point of unions is for them to serve their members and reflect their wishes. It's not their job to serve the public, particularly those who want to be treated as an individual and don't care about fellow workers.

Can anyone tell me what unions have ever done for me?

How about your employment rights, the wage increases under the various partnership agreements, the state of the economy that those various agreements have helped create, just for starters?

[Macy]

I'd laugh if all you pro union heads got stuck in Dublin airport during their strike. I'm sure you'd be out cheering them on.

It would be a pain, but I'd be throwing money in the bucket. Someone has to stand up to employers, and it's good to see some miltancy back in the unions. As IBEC have shown their true colours by supporting Irish Ferries I hope to see more and more action taken by unions against employers (including the state) that want to use immigrants as slave labour rather than give them proper employment conditions at irish rates of pay.

[pete]

I am not a member of a union so they have no benefit to me so why should I supprt them. I'm sure they gained workers rights 50 years ago but thats hardly relevant now. Is it right that I should be forced to join a union if I want to work for some companies? Surely thats as wrong as stopping someone from joining union?

IMO unions have no right as unelected people to negotiate public pay agreements with the government. When they negotiated them I wasn't part of a union so saw no pay increases - had freeze for 3 years as company was losing money. Thats reality though so i stuck it out to get my experience...

[wws]

In the words of Horace Andy...Money money money money is the root of all evil

[John83]

...See the way I didn't pigeonhole anyone there Peadar? You should try it sometime. Then you won't sound like a bigoted Ulster-Says-No rant-factory like Ian Paisley.

Yeah Peader, get back into your giant Paisley-like, bigoted, Ulster-Says-No rant-factory-shaped pigeonhole.

The unions have their purpose, but regularly excede it. That excess is what drives people off them.

I still haven't seen anyone argue Macy's statements:

Agency workers cost the public service more money than staff. FACT
Agency workers get paid less - the agency make the money. FACT

[Macy]

IMO unions have no right as unelected people to negotiate public pay agreements with the government.

Who should then? Maybe all the non-union members could form a collective to negotiate them.....

Don't agree with closed shops, but that's down the company not the union. You're pointing your anger at the wrong people blaming that on the union.

I totally support non-union members not getting union negotiated pay increases and terms and conditions.

Pete - the unions continue to get all workers, whether members or not, increased employment protection and rights. You're deluded if you think the Government and IBEC (well they're one and the same imo, particularly one party which is literally in bed with them) would just be handing these over without union pressure. Only in your thatcherite world are unions are an irrelevance.

And that's before we get down to individual cases of bullying, wrongful dismissal, sexual harassment etc etc.

[pete]

Agency workers cost the public service more money than staff. FACT
Agency workers get paid less - the agency make the money. FACT

How do we know that?

Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Why can't the staff do it themselves? Its like the government outsources PR contracts when they have a whole department of PR civil servants.

[dahamsta]

I am not a member of a union so they have no benefit to me so why should I supprt them.

That's a very naive, selfish, and dangerous way to think about it. You think black people that weren't members of the NAACP should still sit in the back of the bus?

John83, what I did there is an analogy. Pigeonholing is categorising. Witticisms are much funnier when you get them right.

adam

[pete]

I still don't understand why people need unions. If you have problem at work you talk to your boss. If you don't like the response you resign. If the free market folks. Its not slavery.

[WeAreRovers]

How do we know that?

Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Why can't the staff do it themselves? Its like the government outsources PR contracts when they have a whole department of PR civil servants.

To answer your questions in relation to the public service organisation in which I work -

How do we know that? In my office agency staff cost the organisation almost TWICE what permanent staff cost.

Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Lots of reasons - An embargo on full-time recruitment means that line-managers have to find short-term solutions ie. expensive agency staff. Also, line-managers don't plan ahead and when they're stuck they hire temporary staff.

Why can't the staff do it themselves? We can and we can do it better than temps. In fact we're the ones who train in the temps, losing valuable time ourselves when the temp will be gone in a month and we'll have to do it all over again.

None of these ridiculous situations are anything to do with unions and all to do with bad management. But hey, unions are the root of all evil.

KOH

[Dodge]

How do we know that?

Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Why can't the staff do it themselves? Its like the government outsources PR contracts when they have a whole department of PR civil servants.

Civil Service doesn't oursource that much work tbh pete. Only technical stuff. No point in getting an 18 year old lad do a job that needs 10 years experience to do... And they don't employ ouside PR companies either. Individual politicians bring their spin doctors with them from Dept. to Dept. Although they may be paid from government funds that’s about as far they go in relation to the (hugely underpaid ) civil service

[Lim till i die]

I still don't understand why people need unions. If you have problem at work you talk to your boss. If you don't like the response you resign. If the free market folks. Its not slavery.

Oh my God I can't believe there are real Living people in this country thinking like this (The undead of the "Progressive" Democrat Facist Party don't count)

Resign and do what pete, pray tell? Swan into another job? Can't get another job? Oh well. Mammy and Daddy and the two kids will just have to starve for the winter but thats OK cos its the free market folks.

One of the main reasons for problems in Modern day Ireland IMO is that the country never experienced a right-left divide which brought about such a strong left wing and unions in many parts of mainland Europe. The main problems which I have with unions in this country up to now is that they became infested by the stuffed shirts and are no way near militant enough, if one is finally getting up off it's collective ar$e and doing something for its members I say hear,hear and may others follow suit.

Take many of the people working in the slave factories of the US multi-nationals in this country (Who were brought in to compensate for this governments complete lack of anything resembling an indigenous economic plan) who earn the bare minimum wage, are not allowed unions and pretty much have to work whenever their told. Ask them what they think of the free (to exploitation) market?